A question about what your kids read warning mild religious content

Dreeza · Sep 13, 2007

just wanted to ditto this question...

Vitamins (whether in pill or food form) are absolutely ESSENTIAL to the growth of a baby. They can develop many disorders, or even worse, DIE without the proper nutrition...therefore, it is VERY understandable why a baby does not need to understand why he is drinking his mother's very nutrient breastmilk (or whatev else).

You cannot compare the two...at all.

Plus, who is to say your child will think that is the greatest gift?

GipsyQueen · Sep 13, 2007

Dreeza said:

:hail: Thats what I meant with the vitamins.
You're not going to die or fall ill if you aren't baptized/christened or what ever else is out there. There are LOADS of people who haven't been baptized or christened and they seem to be fine.

I've also met sooo many people that just went through with their first communion or other things for the money.

I don't believe in God and therefor did not do this - even if I had gotten a lot of money from it.

*another thing*
Just because I don't believe in God, doesn't mean I don't believe in other things. I personally believe in something like a guardian angel - because there a few situations that have lead me to believe in them.

houndlove · Sep 13, 2007

I'm not going to scour our house to make sure it's 100% God-Free before any children arrive, but I honestly probably would not be that in to having a lot of God-related materials around the house. I wouldn't mind books that show Christianity as "just another religion" but I wouldn't want a bunch around that portrayed Christianity as the ONLY religion and theism as the ONLY way to be.

I went to a Jewish day care and a Catholic preschool and kindergarten and got exposed to a lot of religion before the age of 5 but honestly I didn't understand any of it and none of it was reinforced in our house. I am glad though that I went to secular school after that until high school so I could form my own beliefs without outside pressure. Little little kids are pretty porous and don't have enough of an understanding of these concepts that any of it can really "stick" at that age. However, once a kid gets to grade school they start forming a personal concept of themselves and their place in the universe and I think I would have been really confused if I'd gone to a religious school but then went home to very atheist parents every afternoon.

milos_mommy · Sep 13, 2007

houndlove said:

hmm. I was baptised and confirmed catholic and attended catholic RE every weekend. My mom was protestant but not religious and my dad was atheist. My grandmother was raised baptist but VERY agnostic. My grandfather was native american and i heard a lot of native american lore and legend growing up. Then my parents split up. My stepdad's family is strict irish catholic, and my dad's stepmom is seriously christian, to the point of it being cultic. When i was 14, i did A LOT of research on Wiccan beliefs and for a short period of time considered myself "becoming wiccan", because what they believed made more sense to me than any other religion. Oh, and my aunt whom i spent a lot of time with is Buddhist, as is my best friend but she's non-practicing.

So it's safe to say i grew up around a WIDE variety of religion. I don't think it ever confused me. I was always told "believe whatever you want." I think i believe in aspects of all the religions i grew up around.

M&M's Mommy · Sep 13, 2007

GipsyQueen said:

THE GRACE OF BAPTISM (From the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

1262. The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263. By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

"A new creature"

1265. Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1266. The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267. Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another." Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

1268. The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light." Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269. Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, holding them in respect and affection. Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.

1270. "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271. Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272. Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273. Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship. The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.

1274. The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption." "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

Hope it helps.

GipsyQueen · Sep 13, 2007

milos_mommy said:

hmm. I was baptised and confirmed catholic and attended catholic RE every weekend. My mom was protestant but not religious and my dad was atheist. My grandmother was raised baptist but VERY agnostic. My grandfather was native american and i heard a lot of native american lore and legend growing up. Then my parents split up. My stepdad's family is strict irish catholic, and my dad's stepmom is seriously christian, to the point of it being cultic. When i was 14, i did A LOT of research on Wiccan beliefs and for a short period of time considered myself "becoming wiccan", because what they believed made more sense to me than any other religion. Oh, and my aunt whom i spent a lot of time with is Buddhist, as is my best friend but she's non-practicing.

So it's safe to say i grew up around a WIDE variety of religion. I don't think it ever confused me. I was always told "believe whatever you want." I think i believe in aspects of all the religions i grew up around.

Is it just me or do a lot of 13-14 year olds feel a pull to wicca? I myself remember myself being interested in it a few years back.

GipsyQueen · Sep 13, 2007

M&M's Mommy said:

THE GRACE OF BAPTISM (From the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

1262. The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263. By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

"A new creature"

1265. Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1266. The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267. Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another." Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

1268. The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light." Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269. Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders, holding them in respect and affection. Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.

1270. "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271. Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272. Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273. Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship. The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.

1274. The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption." "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

Hope it helps.

Thanks

It helped! ^^ Although I don't understand why an infant would need to be cleared of it's sins...

M&M's Mommy · Sep 13, 2007

GipsyQueen said:

Many Evangelicals think "Separation from God" is a result of personal sin and therefore they believe that before the age of reason everyone is bound for heaven. Catholics believe that humanity's "Separation from God" is the result of "original sin" from Adam and Eve, our first parents. Catholics believe we are born into "original sin," we inherit it. If original sin is the source of our damnation then we are born with it. Infant baptism washes away their original sin.

milos_mommy · Sep 13, 2007

GipsyQueen said:

i think it might be a trend or a rebellious thing. a lot of kids do it to **** of their parents, or because their friends do it, but i also think the beliefs of wicca speak to the level people at that age are at.

Dizzy · Sep 13, 2007

Just another interesting twist and turn - religion and kids.. what do you think about the "Jesus Camps"?

I was watching something on youtube about it the other day. To me, it's a bit... extreme and scary. Not to far removed from other extremist camps in this world (past and present).

Some clips to put it into perspective (worth watching for debate material alone)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JECP9qzjmF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309MCU8TonE

M&M's Mommy · Sep 13, 2007

Xerxes said:

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. John 3:5

He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

According to the Catholic Catechism, "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament." Accordingly, a person who knowingly, willfully and unrepentantly rejects baptism has no hope of salvation. This teaching is based on Jesus' words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." John 3:5

Three forms of baptism are acknowledged by the Church. Baptism by water refers to the traditional baptism whereby the individual is immersed water or has water poured over his head in the name of the Trinity. The Church recognizes two other forms of non biblical baptism: "baptism of blood" and "baptism of desire." Baptism of blood refers to unbaptized individuals who are martyred for the Faith, while baptism of desire generally refers to catechumens who die before they can be baptized. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes these two forms:

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. (Catechism, 1258)

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. (1259)

Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (1260)

sparks19 · Sep 13, 2007

correct me if I am wrong.... but to me that would mean babies are excluded from that. The Gospel has not been proclaimed to an infant and they don't have the possibility of asking for the sacrament.

i could be way off though

irenafarm · Sep 13, 2007

I read everything my kids might read, no matter how innocuous. Yup, even Christian books. I don't think every "christian" book fits in to our world view, even though we are in fact devout Christians.

And, the other day we watched a movie (subtitled) about a Muslim family in Iran. It was a wonderful movie about trusting God, and how a family sticks together in rough times. Way better than most Disney movies today, which tend to undermine the role of parents and certainly have no place for God.

I look for every possible occaision to reinforce our values, and I'm on guard for any possible message that might undermine them. Sometimes we'll let the latter messages through and discuss them, which is another occaison to reinforce values.

My most important role, I think, is to model for them how to sort through all the messages we get in society and relate them to our world view and personal values. Their values and view of things might vary somewhat from ours - I hope not too much but that will be their choice. But I hope they will always know how to live consistently with whatever path they choose and that's what we are teaching them now.

ETA: Hmmm. I didn't read the whole thread and didn't realize this had turned into a theological discussion, lol. Oh well.

M&M's Mommy · Sep 13, 2007

sparks19 said:

Accordingly, a person who knowingly, willfully and unrepentantly rejects baptism has no hope of salvation. Which can be vaguely interpreted as "God can only help those who help themselves", or bring us back to the matter of free will. Or, another way to say it is while baptism is necessary for salvation, it is not an insurance policy that one takes out to ensure his entrance into heaven. He needs to WANT to go there in the first place.

You go right back to why we baptize babies

, which was answer previously.

bubbatd · Sep 13, 2007

This thread has split off to many areas since I've posted and I admit that I haven't read all since then . Religion is a personal thing and no one will switch any more than they would in a political debate . Please keep things civil and be opened minded . The object is to expose children to many things and stimulate their minds ..... Their brains are little sponges and they will come back as they age to ask questions . Don't shove things down their throats .....it will come back up sooner or later and you'll have a mess to clean up .

sparks19 · Sep 13, 2007

M&M's Mommy said:

I still don't get it lol..... it must be the blonde in my hair.

but seriously I am missing how this would pertain to babies who don't have the ability to WANT to go anywhere except to the boob lol

sparks19 · Sep 13, 2007

bubbatd said:

We are being good boys and girls I think

with the exception of TM.... she just never behaves

Actually if I may be so humble I think this has been the most civil thread pertaining to religion ever lol

Aussie Red · Sep 13, 2007

M&M's Mommy said:

I have to answer this from the prospective that I was one of those kids dragged into mass every darn Sunday and I am talking about late 50's early 60's and whose mom thought that the high mass was of course the best one so it was all in Latin a and I hated every minute of it. I went to a Catholic school and Saturday Catiscism as well. I was forced to make my first communion and confession an act that scared the crap out of me then later on when I begged to no longer attend because I found it so hypocritical I was forced to be confirmed. I would go on girl scout camp outs that were started on Friday night and have to bring an egg sandwich or other non meat type of eats as the rest were roasting hot dogs and having a great time but we were not at that time allowed to eat meat on Fridays. They have since changed that but it makes me angry that I had to do penance for something that is now ok . I could never join my friends on weekends because they were to be devoted to a church I never intended to follow once I grew up. I missed a great deal of life because of religion. My parents and grandparents were devout Catholics and funny thing is that all my cousins and brothers and I are all non believers. The crap that went on in Catholic schools when I attended I would not wish on my worst enemy. Talk about abuse man you have no idea and let me say it made it very hard to believe in a loving kind God when you got the S!it beaten out of you by his so called followers. Years later my father cried and asked us kids to forgive him because he put us through that because of his beliefs. Beliefs he later abandoned as well after realizing that he passed on to us what horrors were done to him as a child as well. He recounted horror stories of being strapped by the Franciscan sisters and later on getting more of it when he got home. It took my youngest brother having an ulcer at the age of 7 to get it through my parents thick skulls that this is nothing you do to a child. I will never set foot inside a church again not even to get buried.

irenafarm · Sep 13, 2007

Disclaimer - I am not a formally educated theologian. Our world view is Baptist-ish.

On children, here's what I think, after some study of the Bible of course, and people like C.S. Lewis. The First Parents placed themselves out of God's favor in their disobedience. Before that, they were "innocent" in that they had neither chosen good nor evil. They had not, in fact, proven that they had the ability to govern their own will by exercising the free choice God had given them in that one little matter.

Because they were made in His image, they had the ability to choose one way or another - they weren't driven by instinct like the animals. Because they had the ability to communicate with God, they knew He loved them and wouldn't lie to them.

There was a whole world of food out there made just for them. God walked with them every day at sunset to talk about the things that happened that day, and presumably to answer any questions or address any concerns.

All they had to do was say "No" when they considered the question of the forbidden tree. Instead, they rejected everything they'd learned about God and believed a lie, a lovely lie "God does not want you to eat this fruit because it's special, it will make you like Him." How could fruit make a finite and mortal being, infinite and immortal? And we still love this lie - the thought of the magic drink, or gemstone, or word, or some creation of man that will make us everything we can't be without God's help.

When man rejected God, God could have destroyed man, or accepted his choice to make his own way to "be like God." As the Bible says, God chose the latter. He left things broken, but with the ultimate intention of fixing things - but always respecting the free will of humans and the choice they'd made.

Man without God can be good, but entropy always sets in and the broken-ness of the world and even individuals, becomes evident. Governments without justice, science and medicine without mercy, religion without love, families without peace.

So we are born with the potential to be good, but with no reference point but our own selfish wills, we've soon reached the point where it is impossible for us to be truly good without outside help. Then we have the choice, just as the First Parents did, to say "yes" to God. The choice remains open until physical death, as far as we know.

I do think kids have a period of grace - it just makes sense. There's a verse in the Bible where Christ takes a child and says, "You have to be like one of these to enter the Kingdom (receive God's grace)." And I don't think one needs bells and whistles to prove one is in earnest - as Christ was being tortured on the cross, they were also punishing a couple of thugs. One of them recognized Jesus, and apparently something about the day's events struck his heart, and he asked Christ to take him to heaven with him. He wasn't a saint or a martyr, just a common criminal with an almost selfish request as he was dying - but Christ agreed. I think this incident is specifically recorded so we can know how simple it is to make this choice, and how God required nothing but humility and faith.

bubbatd · Sep 13, 2007

^^^^ understand .... my best friend in Canada doesn't go to Church anymore either . She married a Protestant and her daughter was not brought up as a Catholic . I remember once when she come over to dinner on a Friday and Mom forgot and we had beef . She said , no worry , I'll confess it next week .

A question about what your kids read *warning mild religious content*

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A question about what your kids read warning mild religious content