5 year old girl killed by Pit Bull

[ToscasMom]

Amstaffer, I love my dog more than I care about the majority of people I know. I also know that an analogy of my dog that implies she is on the same level of as humans in society is not acceptable, neither morally, legally or constitutionally. Dogs do not enjoy the same rights and privileges of human beings. I cannot envision substituting Pit Bulls or Collies or any other breed for African American males or any other humans with or without labels. I do think that is the part of understanding that is missing here. The safety of humans will always come before the safety of dogs. In our country, we are inept at caring for abused, starving and poor children, and they are humans. Do we really think that the same issue in a breed of dog is going to increase awareness if we can't even raise interest in taking care of children?

 

[MelissaCato]

Hummm

....were the caretakers of the child charged with neglect? Was anyone charged at all? It's so easy to put the blame on a dog, it's the humans way to dodge responsibility. That child died because of irresponsible people and those people are putting the blame on the pet dwelling in the same house with the same caretakers. If this would have been a "dog at large" and killed the child, it would have been completely different story with a human owner located and charged. Why is this any different? Personally I think this case is more serious because that little girl, depended on the adults in the house to keep her safe in her home. And they failed her.
.. for a dog to do something like this... there were signs leading up to that terrible day that were also neglected within that household. JMO.

 

[Kayla]

I honestly didn't know there was such a thing as a lazy form of grief. The only grief I have ever known or seen in others was always very intense and, quite honestly, exhausting. Sometimes it even gives way to anger. Sometimes it even ruins entire families. No, grief is not for the lazy.

You've completely misunderstood what I said, and am now twisting my words. I never once said grief was for the lazy. As being human we have all lost a loved one or a close one and it is very very hard. I simply said that from experience by passing off acceptance for what has happened does not make griefing for a loved one any easier then it already is, of course anger and rage and despair and utter gut renching agony are very normal and healthy part of griefing I was simply stating that in the long run putting the blame on other people or other things for what happens only extends the griefing process as it delays coming to terms what happens, this can take years sometimes but ultimatly passing blame or taking revenge on those who have hurt us or who have taken something from us does not help.

I respect your opinion on the matter but please do not twist my words as I was not implying griefing was for the lazy.

R.I.P to Ellie, and my deepest condolences to her family if they should ever view this thread as no parent should have to bury their children.

May they eventually find themselfes at peace after this terrible tradedgy and let us hope no more innocent blood is split as an aftermath of it.

Kayla

 

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer, I love my dog more than I care about the majority of people I know. I also know that an analogy of my dog that implies she is on the same level of as humans in society is not acceptable, neither morally, legally or constitutionally. Dogs do not enjoy the same rights and privileges of human beings. I cannot envision substituting Pit Bulls or Collies or any other breed for African American males or any other humans with or without labels. I do think that is the part of understanding that is missing here. The safety of humans will always come before the safety of dogs. In our country, we are inept at caring for abused, starving and poor children, and they are humans. Do we really think that the same issue in a breed of dog is going to increase awareness if we can't even raise interest in taking care of children?

You miss my point, I was not implying equality between Pit Bulls and Black Male Humans. My point was that stereotypes are wrong and that perhaps the most obvious example of steroetypes run a muck is the black male in America.

The point I was trying to make that you missed is that I wasn't saying that animal rights/safety trumps humans rights/safety but rather if we don't start paying attention to of how humans treat animals it will come back to haunt us. If we don't start changing human behavior it will hurt humans not just animals.

Those children are not being harmed because all of sudden there is a new "killer" breed discovered in the amazon forest and unleashed on mankind. The children are paying the price for our acceptance of violence, abuse and neglect in our culture.

You go a head and ban a breed, be a party to thousands of wonderful dogs being PTS and Thousands of humans being traumatized....ignore the fact that they are innocent as in our present state of hysteria, innocence doesn't really matter.

Oh by the way....banning pit bulls will only be an appetizer for the hysteria nazis. Another fact that everyone seems to forget, this poor little girl was killed by a dog that was already banned :yikes: I guess that whole banning thing works great.

Cocaine is banned....how is that working out? It is illegal for felons and minors to own hand guns....how is that going? It is illegal for people who don't have permission to enter our country to work and live here....how is....I guess you get the point.

In our society we always want to take a short cut to solving problems, we don't want to deal with why people want Coke or want guns to kill each other. We don't want to deal with why people want to flee their country or why businesses undercut the American worker. The same goes for the Pit Bull, we don't want to know why they all of a sudden (last 20 years) have caused more trouble we just want to burn down the whole forest to kill one weed.

In short, if you really are interested in solving the problem and helping children, cure the problem not just treat the symptoms.

If your are interested in being part of the hysterical culture and watching nothing change but the pictures of the news story then.....Ban everything!

 

[Kayla]

You miss my point, I was not implying equality between Pit Bulls and Black Male Humans. My point was that stereotypes are wrong and that perhaps the most obvious example of steroetypes run a muck is the black male in America.

The point I was trying to make that you missed is that I wasn't saying that animal rights/safety trumps humans rights/safety but rather if we don't start paying attention to of how humans treat animals it will come back to haunt us. If we don't start changing human behavior it will hurt humans not just animals.

Those children are not being harmed because all of sudden there is a new "killer" breed discovered in the amazon forest and unleashed on mankind. The children are paying the price for our acceptance of violence, abuse and neglect in our culture.

You go a head and ban a breed, be a party to thousands of wonderful dogs being PTS and Thousands of humans being traumatized....ignore the fact that they are innocent as in our present state of hysteria, innocence doesn't really matter.

Oh by the way....banning pit bulls will only be an appetizer for the hysteria nazis. Another fact that everyone seems to forget, this poor little girl was killed by a dog that was already banned :yikes: I guess that whole banning thing works great.

Cocaine is banned....how is that working out? It is illegal for felons and minors to own hand guns....how is that going? It is illegal for people who don't have permission to enter our country to work and live here....how is....I guess you get the point.

In our society we always want to take a short cut to solving problems, we don't want to deal with why people want Coke or want guns to kill each other. We don't want to deal with why people want to flee their country or why businesses undercut the American worker. The same goes for the Pit Bull, we don't want to know why they all of a sudden (last 20 years) have caused more trouble we just want to burn down the whole forest to kill one weed.

In short, if you really are interested in solving the problem and helping children, cure the problem not just treat the symptoms.

If your are interested in being part of the hysterical culture and watching nothing change but the pictures of the news story then.....Ban everything!

Very well said

Kayla

 

[ToscasMom]

Kayla, I will say that the only words of yours I used were the words "lazy form of grief". The rest are mine. Maybe you meant something other than how it looked (as in lazy grief). Perhaps you meant "expedient". It's just plain normal for people in grief to lash out in an expedient way. It's an outlet that is necessary in order to legally expel extreme anger. Part of the stages of morning, really--anger and disbelief.

Amstaffer, do you see what pit bulls REALLY are up against? Because what I have been giving you is a snapshot of what the majority of our country thinks of pit bulls right now, and that perhaps the arguments pitbull defenders might want to use as a defense aren't going to fly if the intent is to change opinions. It only puts everyone even further into the offense-defense trench. Being on the defensive is not a good place to be. A regroup on approach may be necessary to quell this. Too bad I haven't got a CLUE how to approach it because it has to mean no work for the public and be cheap. This is the reality of it all in the public forum. Local governments in general are reactive to outcry.

 

[Kayla]

Kayla, I will say that the only words of yours I used were the words "lazy form of grief". The rest are mine. Maybe you meant something other than how it looked (as in lazy grief). Perhaps you meant "expedient". It's just plain normal for people in grief to lash out in an expedient way. It's an outlet that is necessary in order to legally expel extreme anger. Part of the stages of morning, really--anger and disbelief.

Oh ok well maybe I just read your post wrong, sorry. I did however say anger was normal part of griefing however passing blame and being angry that your loved one is gone are two very different things and I was aruging that I do not feel in my opinion that the first is very healthy and explaied why.

Again I respect your outlooks on griefing and obviously their is no right or wrong way to grief, I simply put my point of view especially geared towards the video which was made to exploit a young girls life to spread hate and ignorance. A good example similar to taking revenge occured when Steve Irwin died and alot of people started killing sting rays for no reason other then they were mad that Steve had been killed by one, obviously their are many differences in that and this but at the very core my point about passing blame during griefing is a way to slip out of accepting what happened.


Kayla

 

[ToscasMom]

Kayla, xxoo.

 

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer, do you see what pit bulls REALLY are up against? Because what I have been giving you is a snapshot of what the majority of our country thinks of pit bulls right now, and that perhaps the arguments pitbull defenders might want to use as a defense aren't going to fly if the intent is to change opinions. It only puts everyone even further into the offense-defense trench. Being on the defensive is not a good place to be. A regroup on approach may be necessary to quell this. Too bad I haven't got a CLUE how to approach it because it has to mean no work for the public and be cheap. This is the reality of it all in the public forum. Local governments in general are reactive to outcry.

Well, I only know how to argue one way...with the truth and facts. I guess someone else who is a more skilled debater will have to spin it so the hysterical masses can digest it more completely.

 

[Bobsk8]

Well, I only know how to argue one way...with the truth and facts. I guess someone else who is a more skilled debater will have to spin it so the hysterical masses can digest it more completely.

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

 

[Amstaffer]

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

Its not about "groups" its about reality, not perception....

Well what you and your friends should be talking about is the Idiot owners who bring DA dogs to the park. No matter what breed you have it is stupid to bring a Dog Aggressive dog to the dog park. The dog park by my house has a problem with three owners and their dogs who are DA( an Akita, Dalmation and a large Golden Ret.). Do I think any of those three breeds should be banned? Logically I can't, I do however think those owners should be.

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

 

[Bobsk8]

Well what you and your friends should be talking about is the Idiot owners who bring DA dogs to the park. No matter what breed you have it is stupid to bring a Dog Aggressive dog to the dog park. The dog park by my house has a problem with three owners and their dogs who are DA( an Akita, Dalmation and a large Golden Ret.). Do I think any of those three breeds should be banned? Logically I can't, I do however think those owners should be.

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

This is unreal. I just got back from Lucky Schoals park where Smokey and I take our daily walk. I pull up to the parking area by the tennis courts, and inside the fenced in tennis court area are 2 Pit Bulls and the owner, a women. These are the kind of Pit Bulls that have that big head and chest and look like they could snap a tree trunk in half with one bite. The dogs are running around and chasing a ball. I get Smokey out of the car, and instantly these 2 dogs run over to the fence and start snapping and growling and I mean snapping and growling.:yikes: Smokey just stood there and looked at them like "what the **** is wrong with these two".

Now I notice that the women doesn't have any leashes with her. Apparently she parked her car near the entrance to the Tennis Court and walked these two monsters into the gated area off leash. Smokey and I walked past the court to the start of the trail, and the barking and growling and jumping against the chain link fence is getting worse and worse. The women is standing there looking at the two dogs like I am thinking that if these dogs get out, Smokey and I are dead meat , can of Halt or no can of Halt. A Colt 38 Special might not be enough to handle these two.

Now the dogs start fighting amongst themselves, and I mean fighting. They are snapping at each other, barking at Smokey , and more snapping at each other. It was like a scene out of a bad horror flick. This idiot women just stood there and watched all this, and frankly I think she was afraid of these dogs. I finally had had enough and I asked the women why she would bring two obviously aggressive dogs to a public park filled with other dogs and kids. She replied with a really surly attitude, " well they are in the cage here , aren't they". Just then two guys pull up and get out of their cars with tennis rackets and head for the gate door . Smokey and I ran to my car and jumped in, and left there to go to the park near my house......

How do I feel about Pit Bulls after this morning That's how!!!!!!

 

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Is it the breeds fault that their owner is a complete idiot with no control or knowlege of the breed?

No.

I would have called AC on her. Just because an idiot owns the dogs, doesnt mean the breed is bad. I have seen my share of horrible Dalmatian owners who let their Dals get seriously out of control and aggressive. I dont think the breed is bad though, I just think their stupid owners should never have any dog again. I have also seen plenty of people who think their Yorkie or Poodle is "cute" when it bites people and acts aggressively toward them.

I dont want to argue with you, I know your mind wont be changed over the internet, but think if that person was responsible and a good dog owner and trained her dogs, the dogs wouldnt have ever acted like that in the first place.

I know Jet (guy in my sig) would never act like that toward any dog or any person. He would have been up at the fence wagging his tail, wanting to play.

Next time, I highly suggest you call Animal Control. No matter what breed, dogs like that should not be allowed in public.

 

[darkchild16]

Call Animal Control!

That is an owner that is irresponsible. My dog would be jumping around yipping like hes a 10 lb dog wanting to play

 

[ToscasMom]

Speaking of sad. I just saw a pit bull wandering around an area dragging his leash. There were a few people on the street staring at him and he looked really lost. He was jumping up on an empty store front door window looking for somebody, and just kind of confused. Nobody on the street wanted to get near him and he really looked like he wanted to find mom or dad or somebody.

 

[Road dog]

If I may add something here...

Its not about "groups" its about reality, not perception....

We can go round and round about this, but the facts are simple.
1. The vast majority of Pit Bulls are safe and very human friendly.
2. Owners create monsters not God.
3. Banning a breed just puts all of them in the hands of criminals, which makes things worse not better.

4. The news media, like everybody else is in business to make money. They want to report what gets people's attention, to sell lots of news papers and get high ratings on their tv broadcasts.

There are dozens upon dozens of dog bites and attacks in this country every day. How many do you hear about? How often do you hear "Labradoodle atacks!" or "Dalmation attacks!" or "Chihuahua attacks!" or "Keeshond attacks!" ?? Rarely to never... Why? Because "Pitbull" grabbs people's attention.

I encounter dog agressive dogs every day. Many are large breeds, but probably more often than not they are SMALL dogs like Pomeranians, Chihuahuas, and Shi Tzus. These dogs aren't any less agresive, just smaller and less threatening. The only dog that has EVER hurt me was a Pom, and that bugger full on ATTACKED me, bit the hell out of my hand. So, is it reasonable to declare that Poms are all monsters and should be banned?

And if Pitts were to become banned everywhere, what then? A new "Public enemy number one" breed will be chosen. Something new to catch the eyes of the news readers. Perhaps Rotties, Dobies, or GSDs. The cycle will repeat it's self... If that breed gets banned, who will be next?

Banning Pitts will accomplish NOTHING but villifying another breed and ruining even more people's lives.

 

[chinchow]

You are leaving out a big group of people that don't like Pit Bulls, and that is " other dog owners". I walk in 2 parks every day with lots of dogs and dog owners, and I always hear people commenting on the " Pit Bulls" that are in the park and that many of them are D/A.

Not all other dog owners are that ignorant.
And the owners of those pit bulls should know better.
So, your point is?

 

[Bobsk8]

If I may add something here...

I encounter dog agressive dogs every day. Many are large breeds, but probably more often than not they are SMALL dogs like Pomeranians, Chihuahuas, and Shi Tzus. These dogs aren't any less agresive, just smaller and less threatening. The only dog that has EVER hurt me was a Pom, and that bugger full on ATTACKED me, bit the hell out of my hand. So, is it reasonable to declare that Poms are all monsters and should be banned?

the difference is, you probably still have your hand and it functions after the Pom attack. That probably wouldn't be the case if a PB grabbed your head, and you would probably be typing on your keyboard with nubs....

 

[Amstaffer]

This idiot women just stood there and watched all this, and frankly I think she was afraid of these dogs. !!!!

Well I think you are starting to figure it out, of course you don't realize it yet but I think you are getting there

Its not the dogs its the "Idiot" women............

 

[Amstaffer]

the difference is, you probably still have your hand and it functions after the Pom attack. That probably wouldn't be the case if a PB grabbed your head, and you would probably be typing on your keyboard with nubs....

Please tell me you don't buy the much defunked myth that Pit Bulls bite harder than any other dog their size. The bigger the dog the harder the bite, pit bulls are not super dogs.

Also, If you are ever up in Wisconsin with Smokey....I will introduce him to two Pit Bulls who he would love. Sal loves to wash faces