Anxiety in public, reactivness and lunging...

No, Purdue, the reason no one is listening to you is because you never actually have any advice to give or anything that says you're not just parroting words said to you that day without any idea if they actually pertain to the situation. The only degree I have is in English/Creative Writing, but I've been working with dogs day in and day out for over 2 years now, garnering real-world experience that allows me to be a fairly knowledgable source when it comes to training. You, however, have been attending a class for about a month now. There's not a whole lot of credibility to that. So take that and combine it with your attitude and THAT'S why people aren't listening to you.

i've been around dogs all my life. i've given you websites to visit. I don't know what other information you want me to give you. Every time i give you information you go off on it so there is not reason for me to give information when all it gets is shot down. you ban people that don't agree with your methods, and have no intentions of learning about a new way of training when it can save a dog's life. Richling has worked with dogs for well over 20 years and all you wanted to do was shoot down every answer he gave. Am i reading too much into that?

If i wouldn't have gotten into all these positive-reinforcement methods sly would have been corrected long ago, but i guess things happen for a reason. If sly wouldn't have become aggressive we wouldn't have paid that much money for training, but it is worth much more. My dad, the dogs, and i can't wait to go to training and work on the agility course, or track us down, or even protect us in protection work. They are happy that i have taken the role as master. Everyone marvels and complements us on how well behaved our dogs are. 40 kids can be running by(its happened) and they will not break the stay i have them in. we work them when our band is practicing. Loud drums sounding. Flags twirling. people going to pet sly when i am 30ft. away and he doesn't break. Then when i release sly from his stay he get lots of praise and petting. no treats, balls, etc. Bribery is bribery no matter how or when you use it to me.

You say when the dog is doing the command you phase out the treats. the dog never knows when the treats will come so he keeps doing the command, but them you still give him treats every once in a while to "tune up" the dog and keep him doing the command because after a while of ot doing the command and not getting treats the dog will stop doing the command given. so you are never phasing out the treats totally. sorry, but i'm not depending on treats the whole life of my dog.

another thing is about corrections. you say that we are wrong about the fact that you all never use corrections and then in another post you say you NEVER use corrections EVER. you don't even call them corrections. you call them "aversives." Can you not say the word "correction"? Are you that scared to use it?

Maybe thats the difference, i dont train for "calmness". I dont want my dogs "calm". I ENCOURAGE jumping, barking, and other "normal" pet issues.

When you increase a dogs drive (drive building) you have to
a) realize that dogs in high drive are not going listen to your begging
b) there will be a period in that dogs life (the early stages of drive building) that you are not going to have full control over that dog (in fact too much obedience training/control will diminish drive) and for that period a prong collar will help keep some kind of control without yelling and forcing the dog to follow a command (self correction is a wonderful thing)
c) know your dog is going to need a wake up call here and there throughout training, because a high drive dog is so focused on whatever their object of attraction might be they will be in their own little world.

Drive is a great thing and it can be manipulated to fit your training and your goals. But in order to maintain drive in a puppy/young adult you have to sacrifice a little. But eventually when the dog is confident enough and has sufficient drive you will need to gain control over this dog before more intensive training begins. A dog you worked consecutively with building drive is not going to out of the blue just listen when you say "sit" after months of training and making the dog focus on nothing but the prey item, thats where the wakeup call comes in. And when a dog (whose confidence has been built up) is in drive a prong is going to do nothing more than get the dogs attention. By now, you are way beyond the point of losing drive because if everything is done correctly you know have a dog who knows their the shyt and are more mature. Corrections are necessary to gain control when it is time to add obedience to the bitework routine.

i understand your thinking showdawgz. It makes alot of sense. good post. when you are also building drive do you also work on obedience commands like before or after drive building so when you start applying them when they are more mature they understand the command given? i figured yes, but wasn't sure.


sly finally bit in protection. All praise and drive building as you call it. very fun. Mickey is coming out of her shell barking at the decoy and going at the end of the chain. I couldn't be happier.

No you dont have to sacrifice a thing. A good hunting dog MUST have control of himself at all times or he is a risk to himself and the people he is with. I would never encourage that kind of behavior and find it grievious that anyone would. Prey drive will not be diminished one bit by behaving, quite the contrary. A dog IS smart enough to understand both worlds and move easily from one to the other.
and you shouldn't beg, you should lead. IF your begging your in the wrong place in your dog's life. Drive is lost when it is no longer fun....my old boss had one rule for building drive, always leave them wanting more. Quit while the going is good. Dont burn them out. Obedience is a whole different kettle of fish.

but you're also not working to desensitize an excessively reactive dog, which makes a huge difference.

but later in training she is teaching the dog control.

control should come first and foremost. Desire is easy. THey are born with an infinite amount of that and building on this is easy as pie. Make it fun, keep it short. Control on the other hand takes practice and the never give a command you don't enforce rule. THat too has to be kept fun, the reward...the thing they want the most they have the desire for. You work BOTH together at the same time. For a retriever puppy the basics followed by three retrieves...stop right there. Repeat later. Letting the retrieving part become the reward and allowing those lessons to build..a little further, a long single to doubles to triples, add water, it doesnt' matter what you do as long as it is fresh and not boring. People bore their dogs way to much. That is the total kill of desire. If you cannot recall your dog even if he is on the way to his "prey" your dog is not trained. He's not even out of first grade.He should never forget where you are, and that you call the shots. If not, you take the chance of losing him, getting him shot or hit, the ultimate high of his life should be making you proud. He learned to make you proud when you taught him sit down stay..heel loose leashed, not to bolt at loud sounds or sudden movements because as long as he is with you those things dont matter and to have good manners. I have never ever had a dog lunge at anything nor would i tolerate it for one second. HE goes when i say he can go. IF he wants to sit there and vibrate fine, his muslces can quiver all they want, but that is where it stops. His desire isn't going to melt into the dust. IT will remain contained, packed down and ready to go. A dog must learn control or he is a danger to himself and others. Once you have achieved that status in your dog's eyes you can take him to the moon and back. I don't believe in treats as well. Praise is all a dog needs from the get go. The reward is in doing right and the promise of great fun and that makes them feel great about themselves and it makes you feel like you can walk on clouds.

I have some high drive/ reactive dogs. And yup, with a high drive dog, desire is the easy part. Esp if you don't squash the desire with P+. Control is trickier.

And Purdue..you have never been to a good positive trainer. Yours sucked, esp since you seem to thing its all about treats and no consequences. Your dog didn't become dog aggressive because of positive training. That is laughable. Even good P+ would laugh at that. Your dog didn't listen because there was no structure, it was all bribing, and no consequences. That is not positive training, that is just silly. But you seem to think, since you experienced that, that all positive trainer are like that. That I can say, with out a single doubt, isn't true.

Most of the people I know rehabbing abused dogs, and then winning in the ring (and living happily with them) used positive methods. No P+(which does not mean no consequences)

One of the reasons some of us don't listen, is because we have been there. I trained with good trainers using P+. It worked. But what I am doing now works better, is safer, and I just like having a thinking dog. In the real world I want a partner, not a slave. But this is just me, some people like slaves.

See, this thread is about a pet dog, not a performance dog, having serious reactivity issues in public places. Schutzhund training in drive really does not have utility for the problem the OP described.

I just read this entire thread and was completely baffled by the tangent towards ringsport and other performance types of training.

The OP is asking for help in keeping her companion dog from reactive behavior in a public setting, not asking for opinions on why one method of training is "superior" to another.

To the OP: The desensitization routine takes time and patience. I've been there and I know exactly how it feels. My reactive girl was a rescue that had more issues than just leash reactivity, with careful management and work on desensitization your dog will respond well. There has been alot of good advice given on this thread, unfortunately there has been alot of static as well.

I agree that your dog should see you as a leader, but in my opinion, your leadership role should be one of the provider and protector-not as the punisher. With softer dogs this often works wonders in short periods of time. But in the event that it takes a longer amount of time, do not get discouraged. Sometimes your measurement of improvement will be in inches, not feet-again celebrate that improvement. There will also be days when something unexpected happens and sets your training back a few steps.

Be patient, be consistent and think positive thoughts. Dogs look more readily to a calm, consistent leader than they do to a leader that isn't these things.

Best of luck to you, and if you don't feel comfortable posting your good days or your bad-feel free to PM me.

This is very true, and I think the OP has been answered earlier in this thread. (and has shown a good understanding of dog behaviour) But like most conversations (and threads on chaz) they move, and expand.

mine is doing that and he is 20 weeks, it is so embarassing

I third that Bones Would Rain from The Sky by Suzanne Clothier would be an excellent book for you to read. It's on Amazon, that's where I got it.

That is a usual response from someone who knows nothing about building drive, grip and focus. Most inexperienced people say "a dog should never begin any forms of protection training without having a solid obedience foundation" when in fact anyone who knows anything about building drive will tell you that too much obedience/control on a young dog will not show enough prey drive to start protection training and then you have a dog that is thrown straight into defense potentially causing an unstable dog.

You cannot expect a dog who has never gone through drive building to exibit their maximum drive potential if forced to sit and wait for their prey item. I start obedience training with my dogs as soon as I get them (and all of it is done through positive methods and everything is a game), but to call out sit or down while my dog is jumping barking and desperately trying to get the prey item is going to be ineffective and a waste of my time.

For the beginning months of drive building you do sacrifice, control and accuracy. Eventually control is regained once the dog reaches the level of drive you want see.

Actually I am working on desensitizing one of my dogs at the moment. He's extremely leash reactive/dog reactive (at times)and has lunged out in the past. With some focus work he's getting alot better, and ignores most dogs (he'll still let out a bark or growl at certain dogs, but has improved alot). My dog doesnt have to like dogs or people for that matter but they will ignore them and will not display any forms of agression.

Yes, you train obedience commands before drive building. Everything prior to drive building is a game. You dont want to correct a puppy or young adult and put too much control on them. You manipulate their environment so they cant make mistakes, everything for them has to be fun, no stressing or correcting behaviors you will need in the future.

I guess Smkie imagined the hundreds of Field Trial championships her dogs won then...knowing nothing about building drive, grip and focus after all.

Are you guys so stonewalled that you cannot see when someone is half-way agreeing with you, yet providing a different angle to the same end?

So you do drive building, huh? All dogs have some level prey drive, but how often do you work to increase their drive? Drive building isn't jsut throwing a ball around or toy. Or using the toy or food to get what you want from the dog. Its trickier than you think.

You will see that most trainers who plan on doing drive work do not believe in correcting puppies/young adults. When corrections are introduced the dog is already very confident (through drive building) so the corrections usually will not affect the older more mature dog.

Let me ask the prong collar crowd this. Your biggest beef with +R seems to be hinged on the fact that you believe that our dogs are forever reliant on treats, despite our statements to the contrary. Well, let me ask you the same thing. Can you expect the same level of control out of your dog if you don't have your collars on? I see just as many dogs/people forever tied to their prong collar/choke chains as you do people with treats. There are just as many dogs out there that suddenly go deaf and dumb without a collar on...pop one on and sudden they are the world's best behaved dogs. Sorry, to me, that is not a fully trained dog. That is a dog that has figured out when they do and do not have to behave based on the presence of an object, the same gripe that the +P crowd has with the +R crowd.

In the end, it all comes down to the amount of work one is willing to put into their dog. The methods vary and rightly so, but consistancy and goals are key to both camps.