Valid Question

Wow have I been doing things wrong. I am sorry but a nice little "hey" does not work for my dog. I guess if it is considered a harsh adversive then I am in trouble with my dog.

I really am not sure how being stern in your voice while training a dog is going to harm anything. Is there any proof or is this just speculation?

ETA: I just read my post and it sounded like I am being a nasty B****. I am not it just kind of sounds that way so I will apologize now. I honestly want to know.

It depends on the dog. I think what Doberluv is referring to is hollering at your dog, shouting commands, intimidation....for some dogs that is absolutely going to effect them negatively and would be considered a harsh aversive FOR THOSE DOGS. Not to mention that it's most often unnecessary and counterproductive.

If a soft word is associated with taking away a privelege, for example, that whispered word will become the conditioned reinforcer. My dog walks nicely on a leash, really a nice heel even when I don't care if he is in exactly the "right" position. But once in a while, he'll get in a hurry and when he goes out to the end of his leash and just before he causes any tension in it, I tell him in a playful, friendly voice, "uh-oh" and he gets closer to me, putting slack into the leash. Then he is praised and played with. The reason this works is because every time he would get out to the end of the leash or begin to pull, I removed his motivator from him....not another step of walking. Fun over. There was no jerk, no stern words, no nothin. I just stood there. I used "eh, eh" before but have recently changed it to "uh-oh" in a super silly, playful baby talk voice....just because he really loves that sound for some reason. He thinks it is a game and gets silly and looks at me right in the face as if this is great fun and he returns to my side. So there, I corrected his temptation to pull while not creating a bad feeling or anything. He actually can have fun while being reminded. It is very seldom that he does go as far as the end of the leash. I can also tell him, "back up." And he scoots back and over next to me again. Then it's "nice walkies" as I let him know that this is what is a good thing. Because it aways brought treats before and sometimes now too.

I haven't had to use sharp collar corrections or any kind of super seriousness at all. I am a lunatic with how I play with my dogs. I adore them. That playfulness extends into their lessons. I just never have too much of a need to get after them. There are a few areas where I'll use a little bossier, sterner voice, but certainly minimal and not anything that would shut them down. That's not even for training, but more for management of near emergency type things...where you have to do something fast...like if a dog is about to get into something dangerous, say.

Understanding how dogs learn and utilizing the science of behavior is not being an extremist. Not finding a need for harsher type aversives is not being an extremist. It's just a way to train which coincides with how dogs learn, how most applied animal behaviorists and scientists, studies etc demonstrate successfully. There are reasons why, a lot of "how to" and that takes a lot of study which is beyond the scope of this thread or even this forum.

There's always more to learn. I'm a work in progress still, after studying for about 6 years and experience with dogs for about 47 years. But for someone to think that it's all about treats and permissiveness and then say that it doesn't work, that harsher aversives are necessary sometimes and that proponents are extremists is just empty and inaccurate. It certainly isn't what science and the experience of many, many expert trainers and behaviorists have demonstrated to us.

Oh ok. Magnus was trained by a guy that was very firm with him, that is why I was wondering if the stern commands are affecting him. I have to use stern commands with him or he drifts off into outer space.

dr2little: You will be happy to know that I have found a training method that works for Magnus. HOT DOGS! He never responded to ANYTHING else. The minute I bring out those hotdogs in the tupperware he does not lose focus at all. He is doing all his commands in our yard off leash with no collar. I am having trouble with public walks on a flat collar though. He pulls like crazy. Any suggestions? By the way, I am sorry for the little disagreement we had a while back. I have been meaning to apologize for that. I still do think that the prong was a good idea to get him on track. I never really used it though. It just kind of sat around his neck. But that was the collar that the previous owner used for training.

Do you have a word to look at you?

2 years, non stop working, no treats were high value enough...

Started working on watch me inside, backyard, tennis court, sidewalk.. and now we walk on a loose leash if I remind her to watch me. More practice, less I ask. And finally the treats are enough for the command.

I do. It is "look", but he gets in a zone while walking and does not pay attention to anything. Not birds or other dogs or geese or people. Nothing. The only thing he concentrates on is the next light pole or stop sign. He is fine in the yard but then like I said, the minute we go walking he spaces out. Sometimes its like he doesn't even hear me.

I completely agree. Though I think that this goes both ways: a clicker training advocate is not necessarily an extremist, and neither is a person who chooses to train using more "traditional" methods. Proponents of both are not necessarily extremists. My personal idea of extremism is that whole "my way is the only way" train of thought, and going so far to advocate a particular belief (not limited to the world of dog training of course) by spreading misinformation, not presenting all sides of the story, and the like.

There seems to be that stereotype about positive reinforcement: that it is permissive. I can't understand why exactly, the same way I can't understand why some people refuse to teach their dogs tricks (as if "Sit" or "Down" isn't a trick). Maybe because people always want to "show the dog who's boss"? While I agree that positive reinforcement will often work in most cases, I really do believe that it will not work all the time in all situations because dogs are individuals. Same way you can't get a 100% perfect response to every request. Sometimes aversives are necessary, though an aversive need not be harsh. I have no problem when people opt to focus on the other two quadrants of operant conditioning if that's the last shot they've got. The more tools and ideas in the toolbox, the more dogs one can help.

Very good post. Dogs are not machines, and therefore, you will come accross occasions where a different technique needs to be utilized because of different personalities/temperments. I.e. one dog's fear dissipates when it is ignored, another dogs fear is heightened when it is ignored. You need to be able to work with many methods, and thinking that only one is the be all end all is closing yourself off to other options that may be quicker, and produce better results. As Animal Crakers said, the more tools and ideas in the toolbox, the more dogs one can help.

I just believe that some people really need to step out of their little world, get off their agenda and actaully think with their "educated" minds what they're really saying half the time.

Harsh aversives are extremist, and uneccessary. Ok, by who's standard? I can give a look at dog one and send it in to avoidance, yet with dog 2 a pretty good quick snap with a prong collar will not cause it to even blink. So which one is "harsh"????

Whoever said that ignoring dog A will result in a decrease in behavior and in Dog B, it may just increase the anxiety and fear is absolutely correct. If you're going to argue that you never encountered a dog like this ever, I"ll really question how many dogs you've really trained. and if you say just be patient, they'll get over their anxiety, I'd say thats more detrimental to the dog's psyche than a prong collar on a lot of dogs.

I've never seen a dog in my entire life that learned to walk on a leash without leash jerks, EVER. One may say that they've never ever done it, only happy voices and stop walking, not one step forward ever, but honestly, unless you have a rare, rare dog. That dog will keep walking, probably very exhuberently and will hit the end of the leash and turn around like, what happened. This little scenerio happens more than a few times and has as much to do with any learning taking place as a person's happy voice or yummy treats in their pockets. Why sit on a message board and deny that dogs learn this way every day?

Just because something doesn't fit your paradigm morally, doesn't make it obsolete scientifically.

This is kind of off-topic, but I have some questions. Who here has tried a choke collar, a prong collar and an e-collar on themselves? I've never tried either of the three (never used them in training either), so I only have articles and other people's testimonies to go by. They say that a choke collar is the most painful and really hurts, a prong doesn't hurt as much though the pressure is uncomfortable, and the e-collar can feel like anything from a tingle/tickle/ant crawling (or the equivalent of a flea bite to a dog) when set on low stimulation to an uncomfortable tingling sensation like when you hit your elbow on a table when set on a higher stimulation. Which ones am I wrong about? I'm really curious about the pain/discomfort factor.

Simple question.

Simple answer.

No.

JMO as always.

I"ve tried a prong and e-collar, i've never used a choke collar on myself or otherwise. the levels of discomfort depeond on how you use it. a slight flick with a prong gets your attention, but is far from painful. I imagine a full on jerk would hurt, but I don't use it that way. An ecollar on low levels will probably not even be felt by most people.

It barely registers as a little tickle or buzzing feeling under the collar. People get higher levels of E-stim at PT and Chiro clinics and they call it therapy, but use it on a dog and you're automatically an abuser. On high levels it does hurt, it feels like something is burning, vibrating, tingling and pressing in all at the same time. But even that doesn't even register with some dogs.

Animalcrackers, your dog will only respond to stern commands because that is what has become the cue for him. He has learned that the stern voice IS the cue. He's become conditioned to that. I can whisper commands and my dog gives the correct response, that is...with the commands that I've conditioned him to with a softer voice. If my dogs are wrestling too loudly in the living room (don't want too much wild stuff inside) and I'm in another room, I might holler out, "Enough!" Or if they're barking at the top of their lungs. But for most things, obedience commands, it is very quiet. With "stay" for instance, it's really become a default behavior, where I don't even have to say "stay" (sometimes I do quietly, if I think he's zoning out) but normally, I just walk away, no hand signal or verbal. If I step off with my right foot, that means stay (if he's in a sit at heel position for example) and if I step off with my left, it means for him to walk with me. It's about conditioning.

And just which people would that be? And why? Do you disagree with people like Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, PhD, Karen Pryor who has been a marine mammal trainer as well as a dog trainer, very very reputable scientists/behaviorists with advanced degrees in behavior?

Where have you been all my life? LOL. You've been immersed in that kind of training and nothing else. Maybe that's why you haven't seen a dog learn to walk on a leash without leash jerks.(?)

I absolutely have not had to use leash corrections. Loads of dogs are trained without jerking on the leash. Behavioral law states that reinforcement for a behavior will make it much more likely that the behavior will be repeated in the future. We all want the good things and will perform behavior which gets us the good thing.

My Doberman walks beautifully on a leash. (I don't do much that way with my Chihuahuas) The only time he has pulled (now that he's been doing this for a while) is sometimes in the beginning of a walk when he's super excited to get a move on. I've been practicing a lot more because I'm in Seattle visiting (still) and I just use a leash more. After a couple of weeks of being here, he's stopped that even.

At any rate, one step of tension in the leash. Walk stops. After about 3 tries, he remembers or realizes that this is not a fun walk if he does that and he gets back near me again, he gets told how wonderful he is, then the rest of the walk is nice.

I can hold the leash with about 2-3 ft of slack and put my hands in my pockets and we stroll along. He stays right next to me. So, the only aversive he gets is that he has to stop walking for a second until he gets back closer to me.

One of the reasons people have trouble and think they have to use stern voices and stern leash corrections etc is because they've conditioned their dogs to THAT. Anything milder won't have meaning. A person can change that by gradually re-introducing the new cue. Mixing or using both types of training (not using stern aversives and sometimes using stern aversives) does not work as well. When a dog-human relationship is that of a partnership rather than a dictatorship and he doesn't do things to avoid an aversive, and that's how the whole relationship runs, these gentler training methods work beautifully. Throw in the avoidance here and there and you lose the opportunity to make PR run well....like a car that has all it's engine parts in place, but not gas. People need to get it out of their minds that "do it because I'm the boss." And start engaging their dogs. The whole collar jerk, stern voice thing disengages a dog. They're thinking how to avoid that and not about what you're trying to teach them. It's like if you were taking piano lessons and hit a wrong note and the teacher yelled at you or took your fingers and stuck them on the right key abruptly. Would that make you nervous or feel a little rotten? Or would it be better if the teacher gently showed you which key you were missing and then said, "there....that's it." Which way would you rather learn. Compare dogs to people? Sure, in many ways. Dogs have emotions and feelings.

To say that some dogs don't learn using behavioral law is false. All mammals learn by behavioral law. Animals that are much harder to train than dogs are trained this way. Motivators, reinforcers may vary. Some dogs may need a longer time to practice free of distractions than other dogs. Some dogs may need to have extra focus training if they're unfocused or need more exercise before practicing. But all dogs learn by condition response and by reinforcement. If you think that only stern commands work, remember this: that cues or commands aren't what drives behavior. Reinforcement is.

your dog never hit the end of its leash, ever even when it was a puppy? i've immersed myself in that training, that's all i know??? ok

ETA: The entire quote the first time around

I've never seen a dog in my entire life that learned to walk on a leash without leash jerks, EVER. One may say that they've never ever done it, only happy voices and stop walking, not one step forward ever, but honestly, unless you have a rare, rare dog. That dog will keep walking, probably very exhuberently and will hit the end of the leash and turn around like, what happened. This little scenerio happens more than a few times and has as much to do with any learning taking place as a person's happy voice or yummy treats in their pockets. Why sit on a message board and deny that dogs learn this way every day?

Just because something doesn't fit your paradigm morally, doesn't make it obsolete scientifically.

Yes, though I know that some don't believe me....I can not tell you how well these work for strong dogs. To me, and I am all about training rather than tools, these give the owner all of the control they need in order to relax and really focus on the training.

I fitted a clients big, young (silly and excuberant) and very strong dane and it was amazing how SHE was able to feel more control and therefore stay focused and on track. I got an update last night and she is just so happy with how it has changed their walks.
This is totally non-painful so it does not give negative messages or misplaced, inadvertant corrections in the presence of a trigger....they simply give the owner control and confidence.

I'm really happy that you found the platinum reward for Magnus, something that floats his boat and keeps him focused....that makes training so much more fun and easier for both of you.
No apology necessary, I don't even remember any disagreement but if we had one I'm sure I was as much responsible.

http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Halti-Harness--halti-harness

oh and no i don't disagree with them, Ian has said himself that reliability in the OB cirucuit has gone down since the positive only trainers have come around. Patricia knows a good deal of when and when not to correct and at what level and what to use and for which dogs.

you keep throwing around science and names like you're the only one that has ever read or heard of it.

Back to the simple question simple answer, if Ian Dunbar says that reliability has gone down in the OB ring, are you going to disagree with him just to stick to the party line?

Hitting the end of the leash is inevidable. But it's not something I actively do as part of my training. I don't yank on his leash. There's a little difference and I think the dog knows it. I also start puppies out with no leash at all and encourage them to walk along side me and reinforce. They find out quickly that it pays off to stay near me. I start out with the leash in low distraction areas so they aren't interested in pulling very much....like my own yard or pasture. Sure, my dog has pulled on the leash or gone out to the end of it and his neck had the collar pressing on it. But that isn't what trained him to walk nicely I don't think. I think it was more the reinforcement he got for walking along side me.

I have trained dogs in the past with more sterness and choke collars, actively giving jerks and saying, "heel!" They learned. But there is a huge difference in how those dogs worked with me and how the dogs who were trained without that are...their whole countanance, their interest, their ability to learn how to learn and a lot of other benefits. A huge difference.

I'm not saying that you can't train however you want....anyone. To each his own. But to say that "it" doesn't work with all dogs is false. There's proof otherwise.

I have not used ONE jerk on a leash, NOT ONE, in many, many years, nor have I used a choke, prong or any other painful collar. Loose leash walking is of course taught to almost every dog/pup that I work with
We're talking about 1000's of dogs, so to say you've never seen it done....come to one of my classes.

Leash jerks are not part of my training because I don't ask for too much too soon. It's not how I train. The reason - I don't train a dog to walk on a lead with distraction before I've taught positioning.

ALL training begins with teaching what you want - not what you don't want, so I teach a dog what I want to see (in my case "BY ME" -I don't teach a left heel). This position command is taught without distraction first and when I see success with that THEN I add distraction. Just as you would with a stay or down command.

The leash doesn't even go on until the command has been proofed in different safe areas as the leash is a MAJOR DISTRACTION. That's why so many people feel the need to JERK the lead.....they've not trained the command with distraction first and properly proofed that command.


I think in the first part (the part I didn't quote) you took words from different opposing posts and mashed them together. Extremist was only used by those taking about people who do not use PP.

and nobody is saying that it can't work with all dogs, just that there is a degree of reliablility that is different among different dogs.

I teach dogs to walk on leashes the same way you do, but never once has any of the puppies we work with not torn after a little pile of dog hair on the floor a leaf blowing by a moving blade of grass, etc and hit the end of the leash, they learn something, they are Hardwired to learn that way as well, i don't deny it.

I don't base my training on it, but I also realize when, where and how it can help and with what dogs. Like I said a look is enough for some, other "harsh" things don't phase others, so what exactly is harsh, the look that can send a dog peeing and cowering, or the prong collar that redirects attention back to you?

see what you want to see doc, its par for the course. I guess you have 1000's of rare dogs that don't ever hit the end of the leash, thousands of dogs that never learn by that. Read the whole quote, you'd see that although YOU may not have been jerking the dog, they still got some jerks, self administered. quit twisting words to make yourself look better. I don't Jerk the leash either, they do it themselves, but the end result is the same, they hit the end of the leash, the learn its not nice, they tend to do it less, then rarely. are you really going to sit on the message board again all day and deny that they learn this way? have at it

you don't