Pinch/Prong Collars?

I would just like to say, that I tried the prong on myself. It was uncomfortable but not in the slightest painful. I even tugged on it to make sure.

Magnus has done a complete 360 since me using the prong for 2 days. He learned to lay down on the prong and now does it without it. And that was only 20 minutes of training for that.

I could have never gotten him to do it before, no matter how hard I tried.

So after learning to use a prong properly and having it really work for my dog I definately give it 2 thumbs WAY up.

That's what bothered me about a choke. She was getting choked and pulling with it regardless. I felt this was terrible, but I also knew that a normal collar was not working for me. With the prong, it was far different. She wasn't pulling regardless of the prong, so I felt it was far safer for her and equated to far less pain, in fact, almost none.

Please, lets at least be honest about what the prong is designed to do. By your description, the prong causes no more discomfort than a flat collar.
Now you KNOW that that's simply not true and it's irresponsible to minimize what the prong is actually doing.

I'll agree that prongs are safer than choke collars but the ENTIRE reason that they stiffle behavior is because they cause pain.....PERIOD. Why not at least be real about it, if they didn't cause pain than they, as a control tool, would be useless.

There are many control tools on the market that provide better results but do not use pain in order to work. Using a prong is a choice, not an ONLY option.

As for a dog being excited when the prong comes out. Have you ever seen a dog who's owner hits him get excited to see said owner at the end of the day?

As far as using a prong to increase focus, intensity and drive, what's really happening is no different than what happens when a dog is poked with a stick through a fence. It hightens drive all right because it's adds an element of pain and frustration.

I just feel that if you're going to have a discussion on tools, then why not be completely honest about how they work and the real reasons they're used instead of actual training.

I do think that the prong is much safer than a choke. When a dog is wearing a choke, a lot of them will still pull and it can put them at a great risk. With a prong it is completely different and they know not to pull or it won't feel that great making it far less likely for injury.

Another thing I would like to say is, when a dog is a puppy its mother corrects bad behaviour by giving them a pinch with her teeth. This is no different than that. It is a correction, and probably much less painful than a nip from its mother.

I was unsure of the prong before I started using it but after seeing the great improvement it made in Magnus already, I really do like them

The other big thing is that IF you are going to use one you must know HOW to use it and make sure it fits properly.

We used a prong collar just for training. We rarely use it any more. I don't really like it. Just a note, PLEASE take the prong collar off when you are not training. I've seen dogs at the dog park with them on and I'm sure it doesn't feel good when another dog grabs it when playing.

yeah they cause pain, they can be very effective. I'm past any mental hang ups that life isn't all puppies and ice cream all the time for every living creature on earth. Can we move on?

We are not mother dogs...... and if we were we would not be applying constant threat of physical pain.

Like I said, the decision to use a prong is made even though their are many other control tools out there that cause no pain and work just as well.

This decision should not be made so light of as it is not without risk of injury both physical and emotional. While a prong may be safer than a choke collar, IT CAN AND DOES CAUSE REAL INJURY.

Training is not what a prong is used for....control is all you're getting, control through threat of pain..nothing more.

Useful information.....as usual.

A prong is designed to put even pressure around the dog's neck when the leash tightens. The ends are flat or rounded. It is not designed to cut into the dog's neck, it is designed to apply even pressure. If your prong collar is causing your dog pain, then it is being used incorrectly.

Tools are only as good as the people using them. If you want to apply pain to your dog, you will do so, no matter what collar choice you use. If you do not want to apply pain to your dog, you will take the time to research your tool of choice and use it correctly.

I'm not getting into the whole "if you use adversives you're being cruel" debate. I, personally, do NOT prefer the use of adversives, but I do believe that sometimes it is necessary. That is why I take the time to learn how to use my tools in the best possible way. I have a very sensitive breed. If I over-correct, it could shut down my dog. Not very condusive to training. Personally, if I do need to use an adversive training method for a particular exercise, I will jump right from a flat collar to a prong.

A good trainer is one that knows that he/she does not know "everything" that there is about training, and one that is open to various methods. What works for one dog does not necessarily work for another. I live in a multiple dog household, and I can honestly say that each dog is trained slightly different from the next, because dogs are individuals, and, IMO, their training needs to be individualized.

In case this was directed towards me, I've been training for MANY years and have used every tool in the book. My histrory includes several years in the Schutz world so believe me, I've seen it all.

I by no means know everything but have evolved as I learn more and my evolution as a trainer has taken me away from painful aversives, no matter who I'm working with. To say that these tools are necessary is flat out incorrect....sorry.

I think this thread is about prong use in FR, not prong use in daily life. There are better ways to train for daily "Joe Schmo" obedience...FR is a different ball game all together.

Exactly....we are using the prong for french ring and nothing more. He does not wear it when he is going for a walk, playing in the backyard,going for a truck ride, laying around the house and we don't use if for basic things like teaching him to stay off the couch.

Are you saying field trialers use e-collars to create drive/intensity or that it is a personal preference?

I guess what it comes down to is no matter what method you use you are still using something to correct an animal from we think is unacceptable behaviour. I guess there are a lot worse things that a person can do than to put pressure on a dogs neck to correct him.

well, I could say that yes a prong can be used to bring up drive and intensity, and that you can also use it to cap drive and load a dog, you can also use it to bring down drive, or for control or for any other number of reasons. But we all know the response it would get. There are better ways, mine eyes have seen the glory, i've been there done that. OK, you say you have dog sport experience, I meet tons of people that say that, sadly most don't have the first clue what is happening in training or how to read that dog in that moment.

The top of the sports in all Ring sports (French, mondio, belgian) and Schutzhund all use a prong for one reason or another. When your expertise reaches their levels, or you've accomplished anything in any of those sports, then come back and tell us what you've learned. Even the Shelia booths and Ivan Balabanov's use prong collars.

the facts remain the same that whenever somebody brings up something like this, we get the same responses about being cruel, using fear and pain, ruining relatioships, etc etc, there are better ways, etc, etc, and yet you've never been anywhere in anything like this, so how would you know. Then you stand behind your cloak of a loving and moral heart, totally dismissing tried, tested and proven methods of dog training backed by the science you keep clamoring about. sorry, but life for every thing involves a little unpleasantness, why should everyone have the same mental and moral hangups about it that some people have?? I have yet to have anyone, anywhere question the relationship I have with my dogs, in fact its usually quite the opposite.

Sometimes we Joe Schmoes need a little more help when we are on our own. Call us inept. Or whatever.

Wow . . . do I ever feel stupid now . . . here all this time I should have been using a prong collar instead of just a quiet "don't pull." Doc, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME???

LOL Renee. You and what army?

I stepped in to put a little reality into this conversation. There was a "lovefest" going on about the prong and I just wanted people to be real.

The one and only reason the prong is effective is because when the dog pulls against it, it creates pain/discomfort. The dog remembers this and associates that feeling with the collar and therefore when you put the collar on again the dog is less likely to pull on it. So yes, the premise of the collar is "this will hurt if I pull or yank on it".

For whoever said "I put the prong collar on myself and pulled it a little and it didn't hurt" - now please put it around your neck, tied the leash to a pole and run and hit the end of the leash. I guarantee you it will hurt.

For the one who says that it provides even pressure around the dog's neck - so will a martingale collar (much the same concept except minus the prongs). If that's why the collar works - and not because the threat of pain is there - then you could use a martingale just as easily. But that's not what happens. A dog will pull on a martingale if not taught properly. A prong collar allows people to not train their dogs and get a dog that doesn't pull (while it's wearing the collar).

I won't ever use a choke collar in training again, but I may use a prong again. For me, there are times when a prong may be my tool of choice. All I'm trying to get people to acknowledge is that the prong collar is based on the ability to apply PAIN to the dog. Understanding this is vitally important in order to keep (as someone said) the "Joe Schmoes" from overusing it.

Those who are saying "but we're not trainers" .. is it really best to put a collar that creates pain on your dog if you're not a trainer and don't truly know what you're doing? The logic behind using more pain because you know less doesn't make much sense to me, I have to say. I felt the same way in working with horses. It seemed that those who knew the least put the biggest bits on their horses. I felt the highest form of training was being able to control your horse with as little as possible (I used to do demos with NO bridle, NO halter - nothing on the horse).

I know someone working her rottweilers in French Ring and doing well, but she doesn't use a prong collar. I don't think it's a necessity - it's a CHOICE. Just please acknowledge the choice and don't start thinking that dogs LOVE the prong.

I have a condition (I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating) that attacks my joints. There are times when my wrists are SO painful that even the slightest of pressures creates a considerable amount of pain. I thought hard about putting a prong collar on Khana (who is 50+ pounds) because she's young and still excitable at times. I chose not to (at least yet). Too many dogs become dependent on the feel of the prong and it doesn't necessarily teach them a new behavior - it merely teaches them that *WHILE THE PRONG COLLAR IS ON* they aren't to pull. The last thing I would want is a dog that is excited about the prong, because that's telling me that I've used it way too much and they've learned an association that I don't want them to learn. What I want is a dog that I can take out with a piece of twine (if that's what I have) and not have it pull. A prong collar could be part of that training, but what I see people do is use it INSTEAD of training and then they often have a dog that walks on a prong collar the rest of its life.

I think it's important that people reading these threads see both sides of the topic and then make a clear and knowledgable choice as to whether or not to use a pain-based collar on their dog. Fooling yourself into thinking it doesn't create pain is not a good idea. If it didn't, it wouldn't work any better than a martingale.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... not against corrections, just want people to understand what they're doing.