Nancy Grace has gone too far

Like I said, shoot the message and the messenger... opcorn:

Adoptashelterpet, chill out. I'm not anti-pit bull, I don't think they should be banned, but, seriously, you are not projecting a positive front for the pro-pittie crowd.

Regarding the report, it's compiled from press reports, which IMO is why pit bulls have such a strong showing. Pit bulls were bred to attack spectacularly, without inhibition, without provocation, and without backing down. An exciting and gruesome dog attack is more likely to make the news than "Bobo the labrador bit Jimmy's leg, but after being kicked a few times he let go."

In that sense I think it must be acknowledged that pit bulls differ from other dogs and that they can be more dangerous. Not because they're crazed man-killers who can't wait to maim their next victim . . . but because when one does go "bad", as happens with individuals of every breed now and then for various reasons, they're much harder to fight off and subdue due to their single-minded determination and ability to ignore pain.

Also, we all know that disreputable types are attracted to pit bulls for their "tough" appearance and reputation. It would not surprise me at all if they were purposely trying to breed human-aggressive pit bulls.

The best way to help the pit bull, IMO, is to encourage responsible pit bull breeders to selectively breed AWAY from all kinds of aggression, including dog aggression. Dog aggression is not acceptable in today's crowded, often urban society (and that goes for all breeds with dog aggression, not just pit bulls.) Yes, it's a traditional trait of the breed. Who cares? The ancestors of miniature poodles had hunting instincts but no one weeps when they don't drag home ducks. Keep the good traits, expunge the bad or outdated.

I have to agree. It's obvious that you feel strongly about it. But you aren't really doing anything but making yourself look a little ridiculous. I suggest all bow out and agree to disagree as this so called "discussion" is not going anywhere.

While I didn't go through the data with a fine-toothed comb, two rather egregiously uninformed errors in the report cast doubts in my mind as to the true accuracy of the data:

Doberman: One miniature pinscher apparently joined two pit bull terriers in attacking a child
We all know a Miniature Pinscher isn't even related to the Doberman breed

and:

It refers to a Bull Mastiff (Presa Canario) bracketed, not designated as a mix, seeming to include them as the same breed- Those are two entirely different breeds.

There are probably more bits of erata in there if you were to look and do some checking.

The main problem with that report, IMO, is that it merely gathered statistics on dog attacks from press accounts, in other words from newspapers and other media reports. Newspapers don't report every dog attack, they report the most interesting dog attacks. No one wants to read about how little Timmy's chihuahua nipped him unless it took off a finger or gave him rabies. Otherwise it makes for a boring story that readers would greet with as much interest as a compelling headline of "SIX YEAR OLD MARY SMITH FELL OFF HER BIKE AND SCRAPED HER KNEE BUT IS OTHERWISE COMPLETELY FINE!!!"

What would make for an interesting and useful report, IMO, would be if a scientist teamed up with animal control in a few large cities and compiled information on ALL dog related bites/maimings/deaths in that city. (Most dog bites never get reported in the media. I live in a medium city and we have an average of one dog bite a day, according to a report in the paper a few months ago.) The scientist would have to sort through the reports for accuracy, of course, so that a cockapoo doesn't get reported as a poodle, etc. Even then it wouldn't be 100% accurate since people with non-severe dog bites, especially from their family dog, probably wouldn't go to animal control at all. But it would still be more accurate than anything we have now.

Well I didn't have to pick as much schrapnel out of my body as I thought I would. I just thought that looking at some numbers would shed a less subjective light on things.

I believe that her report only covers deaths and maiming, not all bites. If all bites were covered my neighbors Pom would tally up for sure. We generally do not see bite stories in the press unless they are serious, so what she has compiled are those stats that resulted in critical injuries or death--and of course these would be covered by the press.

She did write anecdotal qualifiers for some of the stats though. She also seems to make it clear that she is not in favor of breed specific laws as well so I took her to not be deliberately skewing her stats for an agenda of any kind.

Since all the Pit Bull haters dodge my last questions about Pit Bulls at dog shows....I'll try another.

Why is it so hard to go after neglectful and abusive owners of Pit Bulls (and all breed for that matter) and get the people out of the dog business who create monsters (of any breed)?

Why oh why can't we go after the humans? It seems such a clear answer but yet the BSLers just want to wipe all, when so many wonderful and innocent would pay...why?

Why should so many pay for the crimes of so few? Please don't ignore this question...answer it and help me to understand your logic.

I hope your answer isn't....because it is easier

Why don't you be the one to lead the charge and start doing something about it yourself, if you are so passionate about this subject?

Well Amstaffer, I think you are right. The problem is, you don't get to go after an owner until after the dog has attacked. In most cases, this means it's too late for the victim. That is definitely "harder" because it can result in death or maiming of a child or adult. This creates an uneasy feeling among an easily skittish public and that is how, I think, the demand for laws all got started. The emphasis is on the safety of the public at large first. It's all rather silly because even with a law, the end result is still the same. Dog kills, owner gets his due. The only difference is with laws, the mob mentality is at work so locating dogs is easier, because people will happily turn in one another for owning a dog that fits the description.

I am positive that in every rather comprehensive data compilation on a subject such as this, there are bound to be a very small percentage of statistical errors. That is to be expected. However, I think the overall picture , using a bell curve type evalution, that the report paints is still pretty obvious.

I hear this same Mantra over and over again. Wait until the person, or dog, or child, gets attacked and then and only then go after the owner. Kinda like not bothering the drunk driver until he or she actually hits someone or causes and accident, and then, arresting and punishing them......

Bob - what's your solution to the problem?

I'd like to hear the unvarnished truth please.

Excellent dodge.............. but didn't answer anything.

Anyway, I attempt to fight ignorance against the breed whenever and where ever I can. I write letters to Gov't officials and call them and I have even stopped by their offices........... I also have two EXTREMELY friendly examples that I take everywhere and convert Pit Bull haters one by one

What do you do besides stand outside the castle with your pitch fork and torch while you call for the death of the "monster"?

Mantra...isn't that how a free democracy works? You wait until a crime is committed to execute the criminal?

If you would turn your fervor against the crimes that are committed before the attacks....like Dog neglect and abuse you could eliminate the problem. Go after bad dog owners and you will solve your problem, going after good dogs owned by good people might be easier but is not right and should be illegal in a free democracy.

Yes Bob what is your "Final Solution"?

I can't wait to know either.

At this point, I don't know if there is a solution. In the area that I live, I see so many people of questionable character, buying Pit Bulls. Many of them buy 2 at a time. They buy this breed because they know it can be an intimidating dog to walk down the street with, and if it growls and snaps at people and other dogs, hey that's even better. That is the image that they want to project. This is what the residents of these urban communities get to know as a Pit Bull. These citizens don't like these dogs because they are afraid of them, and afraid that their children and their pets will be attacked by them. Add to this the accounts of attacks in the local papers every few months, and this just exacerbates the situation. Anyone that doesn't have that fear walking by one of these out of control dogs, with either his family or his dog, has to be brain dead. These owners couldn't care less about socializing or training these dogs. This is a big group of new Pit Bull owners that are popping up everywhere. Every time people see these owner-dog combinations that I am relating, you make more enemies for this breed. One jerk walking around the dog park next to my house with his snappy untrained PB, has a dozen dog owners already, commenting to each other on his creepy dog and wishing he would either go away or his dog would drop dead.

Right in the Condo complex where presently I live , I have seen three Pit Bulls come and go besides the one that is still here. People adopt the dog, think it is cool to tell their friend they have a Pit Bull, and spend zero time with the dog training it. These people are not the same type of people that are going to get a mixed breed from a shelter, or a Corgi, or a Poodle. They want something that looks mean, and acts mean and makes them look tough. Usually they get bored with it after a few months and take it to the animal shelter and drop it off. Sometimes they chain it up in their backyard and it stays there all day, day after day, getting meaner and meaner.

Now, do I have a solution for this problem.. Sorry, but I don't. I don't think any of the other people that are posting on this thread do either. I haven't read one solution that has been offered yet, that made any sense. The typical line is ... The dogs are good, it's the owners..... let's go after the owners. OK..... Why don't the ones that feel that way figure out a way to go into the cities, and talk to these people that are buying these dogs for all the wrong reasons , and lecture them on how they should raise their dog.. You and I know that this will never happen... So all this, "Let's get the owners" talk is alot of blowing smoke and hot air. Will the problem get better, probably not. What could make it better would be Pit Bull getting the reputation of not being a mean, scarey , D/A dog and then the current buyers will move onto something else. Right now the Pit Bull is their weapon of choice and that is just the way it is...

So cities like Miami have banned the dog, and to them, they have solved the problem. The citizens are happy and feel safer. If people that would normally buy a PB, then start buying Rottweilers from the same reasons, then the focus will probably switch to that breed. There is nothing that I can see that will do anything to reverse this trend. One thing that doesn't do the anti-ban people any good is to try and make the victim look foolish and that is what happens on many of these threads that I have read on this topic.

OK, what have you personally done to go after bad dog owners? I would like to hear something specific and the result that you got when you did it...

One case...I have emailed pictures of someone who had dogs in a dangerous and abusive setup to my alderman. He in turn sent out animal control to investigate. The lady in question ended up "selling" some of her dogs and cleaned up the conditions for the two she kept. Did I cure it? No, the two dogs she has are still in bad (better but still bad in my book) conditions but she has few dogs and made some improvements...... I will continue you to watch her.

One solution I have and would love to see is that dog owners would need to obtain a license to own dogs. If you didn't prove knowledge and ability needed to keep a dog correctly you could own dogs. Also if you ever proved unfit to own a dog you could have your "right" to own a dog suspended or revoked.

We do it for cars...why not man's best friend?

I would also love to see anti-animal abuse laws would be enforced more strickly.

Bob - I talk to people about our dogs in common. I takl about nutrition and the need to train. I do NOT encourage people to get into the breed. Actually I spend a lot of time telling people who tell me they want a pit all the reasons they should reconsider.

Why?

Because I don't think this kind of dog is for everyone. Granted I only have a mix, and not a pure bred, but even with my mix i have met challenges that I haven't met with any other kind of dog I've had (i've had a gsd mix, an australian cattle dog mix, and a couple of lhasa apsos).

I do little things - because I'm a little person. I write letters. I talk to people. I know quite a few pit bull owners, I work with at least 3 other people who own pit bulls. All of the pbs I know are house pets, they are not used for fighting, they have not been game tested by rolling in one fight. They are just big goofballs that love their families.

My solution to the problem would probably sound like a lot of hot air to you. I think education and open minds are key. I think even minds like yours should try your best to remain open, as well as my own mind about what valid concerns you have about this breed that i love.

Do i sympathize with the people who get bit? Yes.

Do i think any kind of dog that displays true human aggression should be put down? Most definately, yes.

I do not feel that human aggression is something that should be strived for in this breed. It upsets me GREATLY that there are people who thinks this is okay and encourages it in their pbs. To this end, I have already made the commitment that if my Mojo EVER displays aggression to a human he WILL be taken to the vet to be put to sleep. This is not only my commitment to my dog but also to the society that I live in.

However, I also still do not feel that dog aggression that is properly managed is a huge issue. But again I try to be conscientous - my dog doesn't go to dog parks, or to dog day care, and I walk him on lead when we are out.

Again it comes down to education - a lot of people still do not know how to take care of the animals that they have. They may want to, but they don't know that by chaining their dog up they are causing harm. Maybe they want to do right by their dog, but their are circumstances that interfere with that wish.

Who knows?

Who are we to know what their lives are really like? All one can do is remain open minded and to try to spread the light of knowledge as far as you can.

This is what I try to do....