Who else feeds RAW?

I mentioned that in the first post i made, that i knew that there were dental benefits; however mine get recreational bones like lamb femurs, beef and bison ribs, elk neck bones as well as bully sticks and flossies. Quite honestly the physiology of pugs have changed them so much they can barely get through chicken necks let alone back and ribs without them being cut into smaller pieces. I highly doubt ground bone causes blockages, if there's too much it'll probably cause constipation but really that's the same whether it's fed as a drumstick or in a ground patty. It doesn't become less digestible if it's ground or any more likely to block.

That's great! Be VERY careful not to give any weight bearing bones... They can and WILL break teeth.

As for the ground bone issue, it's not something that happens often but it can happen. That's fine if you choose not to believe it. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise...

What works for the goose does not always work for the gander.

I think that as raw feeders, we should all be glad that people are feeding some version of raw out there. Whether it be pre-made, prey model, what have you.

I believe any raw diet is better than feeding kibble. But that is what *I* believe and I don't think people should be looked down upon for not feeding a specific type of raw diet or for not being able to financially afford an extra freezer and buying 200lb raw meat orders. Sometimes the cookie does not crumble in everyone's favor.

I happen to also feed two of my dogs grains and all three dogs fruits and veggies. Because that is what works for my dogs. I stopped feeding my mastiff grains and she got sick. No matter how much protein I was giving her, it just wasn't enough. She lost a dramatic amount of weight. She NEEDS grains. She also just had her annual and the vet couldn't stop gushing over how beautiful and shiny her coat is and what great condition, overall, she was in. I have another dog that gets little to no grains and I just bought different types of flours to make treats for them because he needs grain-free items. He had his annual not too long ago and both his holistic vet and his modern vet said he was in the best condition he's ever been in. I attribute this to my and my husband's stellar dog owning abilities, that includes feeding a raw diet with and without grains.

My dogs also get supplements because even though they get chicken feet, it's just not enough cartilage for leg issues that are cropping up, and they get salmon oil because they don't get enough fish (I'm sorry, but I won't eat the frozen fish out of the grocery store and neither will my dogs) and they get yogurt and eggs because that is just what we do. And it works for us and that is what matters.

I also feed my dogs meat that is organic/naturally raised/antibiotic free, etc.. So it's pricier for me to feed raw. But that doesn't mean I think everyone else should do what I'm doing. I do it because it is best for my dogs and my beliefs. Everyone else needs the opportunity to find what works best for theirs.

Sorry, I can't agree with that. Carnivores NEVER need grains. A proper prey model raw diet requires nothing more than meat, bones, and organs.

Dogs are Carnivores. They are NOT the omnivores you've been raised to believe they are.

My question to you is this, when you removed grains and your Mastiff got sick, did you feed higher bone content til her stomach settled? Major changes in diet almost always cause some type of stomach upset. Increasing the bone content helps to firm things up til the adjustment period is over.

I'm glad it's working for you. Again, I'm not BASHING anyone's choices. I AM expressing my opinion of those choices though. I thought this was an open forum and I had that right?


Dogs and cats are carnivores, plain and simple. They can't break down plant matter to extract nutrients from it. No matter how people want to spin it, the truth is in their dentition and digestive tract...

Does feeding fruits and veggies hurt? No. I already said that. Does it help? No.

We'll feed veggies as a "treat" because they like how it crunches or how it tastes. We don't feed them for nutrition though.

I see eggs as part of the whole PMR diet. It's something they could come across in the wild and would happily eat to sustain their health. We feed them fairly often.


Saying someone can't afford to feed PMR is amusing to me. We pay on average $0.65-.75/lb for all of our meat.

Freezers can be picked up VERY cheap or even free on Craigslist

If someone can afford $5-8 for patties, they could afford $1/lb for PMR.



Let me close out by saying AGAIN...

Anyone feeding raw patties IS feeding a diet that is far superior than kibble

I'm NOT looking down on anyone choosing to feed patties

I am expressing my opinion of that diet choice and offering advice from my research and experience

Normally when people start out by saying, no offense but... they have every intention of offending, but just hope by saying it it won't.

You are mistaken in thinking that I posted needing or wanting your agreement or approval of what I feed to my dogs. I did a lot of different things for my mastiff and quite frankly, I don't care whether you agree with it or not. It is what works best for MY dog. I am the one who watched her drop down to an alarming weight no matter what and in what ratio, I was feeding.

I am glad you get your meat so cheaply. I do not. The cheapest I pay for anything is probably $1/lb. Yes, you can get cheap freezers off of craigslist, but buying good quality meat does not come cheap. I am going to try your idea of requesting freezer burnt meat- good idea- and I hope it works for me too. It appears that in your area you have great resources, but not everyone has that readily available. Even belonging to a co-op that gets great deals on meat can still be pricey, but we do it for the dogs and wouldn't think of NOT doing it.

I think feeding what works for your dog is the most important thing. One dog - or hundreds - might do really well on prey model raw or a whole prey diet, but it doesn't mean that all of them are going to. They are all individuals, and what works for most isn't going to work for all of them. If Bella does best with grains, then I think BP should by all means be feeding her grains, even if it doesn't fit in with most people's perception of a prey model diet. The dog's weight, coat, and general health isn't going to lie about what they do best on, and to me, that is the most important factor in whatever you are feeding.

But that's just in your area. In mine, the cheapest meat I can get is somewhere around $1.50-1.75/lb. And it's not usually of a quality that I'd feed to my dog.

As far as freezers go - space is an issue for a lot of people, especially those in apartments and condos, or those who have roommates. It's not always about space or money, though - sometimes not feeding raw is about a lack of knowledge, a lack of time, reservations about how sanitary it is, etc.

You're coming off just a little bit strong, Jon.

I agree. I know your heart is in the right place, Jon, but I have to second what noludoru posted.
Natural diets are not the answer for every dog. Even in the raw feeding circles there is disagreement as to what's best. Dr. Billinghurst says to feed veggies and Dr. Lonsdale says they don't need them. In the end it all comes down to what you feel is right for you and your dog.

You are correct in the fact that health matters most...but I think the part that Jon was trying to convey, and obviously failing, is that PMR can work for every dog. You just have to find out what the right balance is. One member of a single species does not differ much, if at all, from the rest of the members in that species.

The core thinking behind the PMR diet is not just lots and lots of protein. Its the correct balance between skeletal muscle meat, bone content and organ meat that works for an individual dog. A PMR diet is not balanced or complete without all three.

Some combination of these three ingredients can cater to any dog out there. I think what he was trying to say was that maybe there was a combination that would work, like adding more bone and cutting back on skeletal muscle meat, that would have worked. The general rule or guideline is 80/10/10 for meat, bone and organ respectively. But this is a guideline. If changes need to be made to make it work for a particular individual, then that is fine. Just as long as all three are in the diet.

Saying that a dog needs grain is just silly...*runs and hides LOL*...but seriously. Dogs are carnivores, and do not have a requirement in their diet for grain. My guess is that just some adjustments had to be made in order to make it work.

The reason why most people give up on a PMR diet, is because they started wrong. There is a right way and a wrong way to make the switch over. If not done correctly it can lead to serious health issues. I don't know the background of this person, and I don't pretend like I do...but in my experience of knowing people who make the switch if there is any problem at all it is because they are not following the proper procedure to make it as easy as possible on the dog. Of course there are more extreme cases than others, and sometimes the transition might take a month or so to resolve. But the long term benefits are astounding and worth every minute or the switch over.

I am in no way trying to tell anyone what to do or what to feed their dogs...just trying to help clarify where Jon was trying to come from and what he was trying to communicate.

But...people come to forums just like this one to learn about this stuff. They are most likely going to do searches for thread pertaining to a raw diet. Information and stuff like this should be posted up...and not bashed on either. Forums like this are built for debate, and you gotta have a strong backbone to survive and take what people say in stride...but stay curtious and open-minded all the while.

He is coming off a bit strong, but from reading some of the other posts in reply to his were a bit strong right off the cuff as well. If you don't want to debate...don't post up. And people should really not get offended if someone doesn't agree with what they do or believe, but just take what they say with a grain of salt. Absolutely no reason to get bent over it.

There was a time when I fed 100% raw. Right now I feed Innova EVO and raw, due to several reasons, some of them Nolu pointed out for me space, roommates, money, etc. One of my roomates thinks raw meat is discusting, and it makes her cringe, gag, but she's great and she tolerates it for us. Actually, I think it works to her advantage because I'll seperate meat for her when she's cooking, etc

:hail:

But people do get offended because they love their dogs and want to do what is best by them and being told, "no offense, but.." and then telling them how they are doing it is wrong is being offensive. There are many constructive ways to contribute to the educating of individuals, that isn't one.

Prey model is not for every dog owner, nor every dog. And thank goodness, because if we all agreed, it'd be a much more boring place.

And,for the record, I'm not offended, nor am I feeling particularly bent. I just hate to see people criticized when what they are feeding is loads better than Ol Roy and are doing they best they can.

I just want to quote Nikki here, since this was exactly what I was going to say anyways.

I'm a raw feeder, and an avid supporter of the raw diet, but I would never DARE tell anyone (or imply) that they weren't doing it "good enough" unless what they were doing is outright unsafe for their dog.

The only reason why I posted up was because someone said that their dog didn't do well with PMR and that their dog needs grains in their diet, which is a false statement. Dogs don't need grains, there is no requirement for grains in their diet. Even if the dog was doing better on a grain based diet, does not mean that it is appropriate for the dog to eat them.

When a dog doesn't do well with PMR...that tells me something. It tells me that there was problem in the diet itself or the procedure in which the dog was switched. Not with the dog itself.

Yes, dogs are all individuals but their digestive systems, physiology and morphology are all similar enough to be considered the same species with the same physiological and nutritional needs.

I have known probably several hundred dog that have made the switch successfully, some with serious digestive problems prior to the switch and have been fine ever since. So when one person says that their dog couldn't handle it...that is a red flag to me.



*A PMR or any diet for that matter is not based only on how much protein is given, but a correct balance of meat, bones and organs.

There is nothing bad about that. There is nothing to get mad about or be ashamed of. I am certainly not trying to put anyone down for what they do or believe in. Just clarifying that if a dog is switched to raw the wrong way...of course their dog is going to get sick, which is what happened here. And like I stated earlier...I don't know exactly how Buddy'sParents switched their dog over to raw, but I have to say that I think it is due to improper procedure or an imbalance of the three main components.

Again, just trying to clarify that any dog can do well on a PMR diet if done correctly. I want to clarify this, so if someone comes on here looking to make the switch and sees that someones dog didn't do well with it...they wont get scared and not look into it as a possibility.

I am not saying "Shame on you for feeding grains!!!!!" Or "What I feed is better than you, so there!!!!"

What I am saying is that any dog can handle a PMR diet.

Dance ate raw for a long time. She isn't currently as it's not practical at the moment due to living situations and whatnot. To be honest though, I haven't noticed any real differences in her health or anything on raw vs. kibble. The only difference is stool size and plaque on her teeth -- everything else is exactly the same. And she still gets rec bones to chew on for dental care... the Dobes do too.

personally I found traditional raw inconvient, expensive, messy, timeconsuming and made every single one of my dogs ill.

EXCEPT for whole prey items. I really really like giving them whole prey (mice,rats, birds) and they do well on it. BUT chicken, pork and beef raw make my dogs vomit. Alot. And Iam not ok with that. And yes, I was feeding correctly. I found "detox" quite alarming so I stopped.

If I had access to patties I would do that, but no one carries them anymore (petco did for a while) so due to the reasons I mentioned, my dogs are on grainfree kibble( I agree about grains and them being unnecessary) and occasional whole prey as a treat.

Personally I don't feel Raw is a good way to go for every dog and anyone who says it is is drinking the propoganda kool aid. No one diet is right for every dog.


EDIT. forgot to add that they get organic eggs raw (often) as I have three lay hens

The only difference I notice in my dogs raw vs orijen (well other than bounce won't eat kibble) is that they perform better on raw. But if they weren't racing or doing agility I would never see the difference. I am sure raw is healthier but hey its not practical for everyone.

(though I have fed a very wide range of dogs raw, including many foster dogs and have never had any get ill!)

perhaps you can come clean my carpets and tell me why my dogs couldn't?

Xena gets kibble and the occasional table scrap. She's healthy, active, the proper weight and has no problems with her coat. For me, it's "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing. I have no interest in attempting raw. Never have with any of my cats either (which all lived well over 17 years). No offense meant, of course

I don't have a dog but I feed one of my cats franken-prey raw. My dad just won't jump for buying frozen mice despite my repeated asking. I do think cats suffer from kibble much, much more than dogs and for one nine pound cat it's cheap (MUCH cheaper than the $40 a month I spend on cans for the other cat who will not touch raw) and does not take up much room in the freezer. For Willie there is a HUGE difference between his poop on raw and off of raw. When he ate kibble (first purina, then felidae, then Before Grain, then California Natural), then ate half kibble and half raw, his poops were nasty (worse on just kibble). I mean you could smell them throughout the entire house strongly for a good 15 minutes. Plus they were soft, thank god he has short hair.
I switched him to 100% raw they completely turned around. They are hard, odorless and infrequent. YAY!!
His coat also got softer and he stopped having dandruff.

However I noticed similar results when I switched my cat from dry, then half dry/half wet to all wet. He lost 3 excess pounds and is now healthy with a soft coat.

Bailey is on raw. Before we switched over completely, he was on homecooked food, and before that, on Orijen. I did notice a difference in his health in each step, but he has IBD and allergies, so he needed the improvement. (He doesn't get grains, fruits or veggies, but if he didn't have IBD, he would get a small amount of pureed fruits and veggies.)

Recently I added premade raw patties to my rotation. Frankly, with the holidays, I wasn't feeling up to measuring and making sure the ratios were right -- and I wanted to make sure he was getting the nutrients he needed while I was feeling lazy -- so I put him on patties. I love them, lol -- and, fortunately, so does he. He also gets a bunch of supplements, though I've slacked off some on those, too, recently.

No. It is a correct statement for my dog. I have to say I do not really appreciate my feeding regimen being torn apart by people who think they know my dogs better than I do. This is why I often do not often indulge in raw diet threads because I do not want to be a party to scaring potential raw feeders away from feeding raw by saying it must be done one way. I only even posted an additional post after my op to help others see that feeding raw differs greatly and it's okay. There is no one way and no one diet that works for every dog. Many dogs can handle raw diets and many can not due to many various health reasons/issues. Some people who feed raw also feed fruits and veggies with nutritional and holistic health benefits regardless of what people that oppose such acts say. That's just the way it is. You either have to admit people know their dogs best and feed what it is appropriate for their lifestyles or save the preaching for the choir.