Youth/Malinois K9 Team

I suppose it's all where you go and see the different competitions. Wasn't there a controversy recently about less than stellar performances being given high grades at a national Schutzhund event? Dogs that wouldn't even engage the decoy or would run off the field and they are at a national event? I'm sure PSA comps can have the same thing, but likewise, when you get to level 2 and 3 of PSA, it's not an easy title to get even if you are married to the judge.

yeah, it was a sieger show, all showline dogs, it was disgusting and exactly what i'm talking about. There was 2-3 dogs i saw video of and have personally worked that were decent. It's all how you use it. They use it to skate by and sell high cost puppies.

head to KY/OH border in Oct, you'll see some great dogs the WUSV is there. That is an upper level event with working dogs

Schutzhund is about courage, determination and drive. Schutzhund is no longer about German Shepherds, Malinois, Rottweilers, Dobermans, and Dutch Shepherds.

If a dog has the courage, tenacity, drive and will to engage the helper, fight the helper and work for you, then why is that bringing Schutzhund down. Ozzy is an Australian Shepherd - Jack Russell Terrier cross, we could go out, and we could get a BH. It wouldn't matter if I knew the helper, or the judge, because Ozzy can do the work.

That doesn't mean that Schutzhund is "getting watered down".

It can be a game, but it can be serious to the dog as well. It can be the dogs playtime, or it can be the dog going to work. The difference is the dog playing wants the sleeve. The dog working wants the man holding the sleeve.


Anyway, I agree with a lot that has been said. I've seen far worse from adults on the Sch field than from that little girl. That dog is only 1 1/2 years old anyway, she's got a long way to go, but she was under control (for a Mal ) well trained (for a Mal ) and generally knew what was expected of her.

The slap at the end was out of line, but you could see the girl was getting frustrated with what was going on. She wasn't understanding what the adult was trying to teach her, and she took it out on the dog. Luckily, the dog is forgiving, and let it pass. That probably has something to do with, A. The level of training the dog obviously has, B. How well the dog knows the girl, and reads the girls moods, and C. The dogs age.

People like to compare the protection sports and debate which is more difficult. When they do so, they like to leave out the tracking portion of schutzhund. But, this is the phase that makes schutzhund the most difficult protection sport out there. It's really not hard to find a two phase dog. For the two phase obedience and protection dog, he'll be spectacularly fast, powerful and precise, but in the tracking he will be hectic and careless (malinois). Ditto obedience and tracking- easy to find a compliant, clear-headed, drivey dog who can do both correctly and precisely, but lacks power and aggression in the protection (labrador). Ditto protection and tracking- the dogs that cross over are powerful, serious, concentrated, stubborn type dogs that are sluggish in the obedience (rottweiler). The challenge of Schutzhund is not in the stadium. The challenge is in the additional tracking phase that most people don't watch and don't understand.

Raising a competitive schutzhund dog means finding a good two phase dog and finding a complete training program that will make him into a three phase dog. The people looking for a natural three phase dog almost never find him and are rarely competitive in the sport. Even when you find a dog who is equally good at all three phases, it's usually bc he is only mediocre in all three. So, now you have to figure out how to pretty the dog up all over the place- it's like herding cats- just when one element improves, you break a new one. Because, these phases are not independant in a dog's mind and heart- you change the training in obedience and it will effect the dog's protection or tracking. The program has to train the dog as a whole and that is something that is so big as to be monumental at the highest levels of the sport.

I also highly recommend the WUSV this year. This is one of the biggest schutzhund events in the world and it rarely comes to the US- this is the second time ever. The training on the dogs is excellent and the character of most of the dogs is very good. Just make sure you watch the tracking on a few dogs and then watch their stadium work- see if you can find one that doesn't show his weakness in one phase. That's the interesting part that most people never see.

Charlie Dog, there isn't any bite work in a BH. It's a basic temperament and obedience test that your dog gets a pass/fail on, no points are given.

By watered down- I mean some of the rule changes that have been implemented to make it easier for the dogs. The jumps are lower. The vertical wall is replaced with an A frame that isn't as high. The attack with gunfire is gone. The gunfire during the BH is gone but it's still there during the obedience phase of the actual competition, but it's not done near the dog like the gunfire on attack used to be done, it's more for a loud noise distraction. Those are a few that I know of off hand. So if making it easier allows different dogs to compete who couldn't before (and I'm including the typical Sch participants of GSDs etc), then to me, it's watered down.

Schutzhund dogs get hurt quite a bit, I am sorry to say. The dogs are fast and drivey and are notorious for chasing toys into cars, off of buildings and for making spectacular, insane catches (that most dogs would not be stupid enough to try) that end with torn ACLs, back injuries, etc. The protection phase also has some pretty obvious dangers and no matter how good the helpers are, some dogs get "jammed" on the bites and hurt necks or backs. By the time your dog is old enough to compete successfully at the highest levels, he has probably sustained some nasty injuries.

The average age of dogs at the world championships seems to be about 5 and in my experience it seemed like a very high percentage (maybe 30-40%) are nursing acute or chronic injuries at the time of the trial. These aren't the sort of injuries that would stop a dog from participating, but the sort that make the sport hard on a dog. The dogs with weak character perform poorly. The impressive ones come out and still give it their all. You can't see much pain when they are working, just like a great football player. You see it back at the hotel at night.

I would argue that if you have to train a GSD, mal, rottweiler, etc. to bite, you're in the wrong sport. The dogs who love schutzhund come out biting well from the get go. I've seen two year old dogs who had never seen a sleeve, shown protection, they bite the sleeve like they've been doing it all their lives. The desire to bite is genetic, the control and technique is trained.

There are many schutzhund dogs out there who are not allowed to bite the man. It's not about the dog's inherent nature, it's about control, safety and liability. I personally own a very powerful dog who would love to be allowed to bite people. Because I know this is how he is, I did not allow the dog to agress on people, ever (I'm not a drug dealer or federal informant and don't really want or need a biting dog). You could show him an aggressive, threatening person and he would look away to find a sleeve, grab it off the ground and run over to attack the guy with the sleeve in his mouth. He's deadly serious, but pretty harmless. But don't mistake this for a dog who "just plays". The difference isn't easy to see if you don't know what to look for, but the difference is huge. The best schutzhund dogs are happy, but they are not playing, no more than Mike Tyson was playing in the boxing ring.

Are you going to the WUSV? I'll be there at least Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I'm not competing, just watching.

There have been a few rule changes, the jumps are still around a meter and the a-frame is 6 or 7 feet. The gunfire stuff isn't that important to me. The difference anyway, it's funny though, the MRIII US champion is crossing over to Schutzhund. He's a Great freakin dog, but when he hears the gunfire doing OB or the long down, he's up, broke focus and thinking nothing but bitework because of all his ring background.

does that mean he's weaker cause he reacts to gunfire?? not really he's just conditioned to it differently. I'm sure they have already or will shortly be worked thru that so he can go on and title in sch and probably very well, but is isn't a strong OB dog, but very powerful in bitework. I saw him shatter the decoys leg last summer in a trial in MN. He was in a hospital for quite a while and was a month or two before he could stand again.

back to rule differences doesn't PSA use the same aframe and jumps with maybe a tunnel to jump over at times? MR and FR use the pallisade at upper levels.

I'm trying to make the WUSV, depends on my work. You'll find me with the malinois people laughing and having fun (which seriously disturbs some of those serious schutzhund types ).

Not all of us are that serious we'll be right there with you laughing and having a good time. (why do mal people think they get to have all the fun ) Actaully i'm an equal opportunity bitee, i let any breed take a chomp on me if they want to.

I in no way feel schutzhund is the "easiest" as the obedience and tracking phase are very strict especially the ob leaving little room for error (unlike other "protection sports). It is easier for prey driven dogs to succeed,though. A Sch title doesnt mean much in terms of true PPD work, IMO. As of now, I am more interested in sports where the decoy job is to run the dog off the field , putting as much pressure on the dog, and you can really test the dogs temperament.

I'll be at the WUSV .

Right on. This is how it went for Gunnar. He'd never seen a sleeve or done any bite work outside of playing tug and rag work when he was a pup, until he was over 2, but he took right to it. We spent nearly a year building grip and bite technique, and gradually introduced drive capping to keep him calm on the field, and we're now doing off lead obedience with the decoy on the field. It's all very basic at this point but the progress has been amazing and very rewarding.

I was wrong in making that statement earlier. I should have clarified that the protection phase is the easiest. Tracking is certainly something that takes a lot of work and isn't easy. As far as the obedience goes, Sch might be more formal and stricter but for the most part the basic points are worked in all the sports. And I still think that doing off lead obedience with a bunch of decoys on the field distracting your dog is going to be pretty difficult, and maybe if that is considered giving more room for error, I think the situation dictates it.

I am curious, is it common for handlers/trainers of such dogs to do preventive by way of a chiropractor and not waiting until the dog is showing signs of injury?
Just from watching it on t.v I have often wondered that, especially when I see lame dogs out there doing the different tests.

One last thing. What is with this comparison between JRT's and GSD's Mals ect?? Dekka, I get the impression that you have little to no respect for our working dogs. Yes, our dogs get hurt, in real life they can get shot stabbed, break bones, get kicked, hit, and can leave a nasty scar in someone and it takes alot of work to gain control and create a reliable dog. It is definately not comparable. Why cant we all just respect "the working dog"?! it shouldnt matter what venue or who's "tougher"....

My favorite video, it takes a great amount of courage from these dogs in most of the clips. Amazing dogs!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKf3Vhh0iWY&feature=related

(not sure whats with the pic of the hyenas, just ignore that )

Where have you seen lame dogs being worked at a trial? The judge can DQ a dog if it's obviously injured.

That's a great clip, I've seen that one before.

Here's a pretty good PSA clip. You can see how the decoys try to distract the dog while doing ob, and some of the different protection scenarios with jugs filled with rocks, the streamer things, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JausvGeb-Y&feature=related

This is pretty cool too, some "real life" situations, like going to the ATM, car jacking, someone trying to rob you, etc. This is the stuff I want to work Gunnar up to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eSmMK4SqRk

You really shouldn't see lame dogs out on the trial field. The judge is supposed to dismiss any dog who is obviously in pain, but, of course, every judge makes their own call. I have been allowed to trial with vet wrap on my dog's ankle due to a wound, but he was not lame or in pain- I was just making sure he didn't tear the wound open again. I have also trialed where my dog was sound until the end where he was standing on one leg due to a toe injury (I found out later that his toe was broken). I was allowed to escort the decoy back to the judge to complete the routine. Ditto the time my dog broke a tooth at the end of a trial. He went through the routine with no complaint and so the judge did not complain. If the dog was showing any sign that he wanted to quit, I have no doubt I would have been excused. No one wants to see a dog put through the routine if they do not want to be there. I have never seen a dog come onto the field seriously lame and be allowed to continue.

As far as medical care, it probably depends on each person's budget and access to such services. When I lived in LA, all my dogs went to the chiropractor as needed and I started my current dog at 4 months just to get him used to the process and keep everything in alignment. Many of my sport friends also used this same chiropractor after they learned that this was an option. In Germany I regularly drove 2 hours to the Netherlands to take my dog to an osteopath who did adjustments. I found out about him from other serious sport people. This was obviously not something that everyone could afford to do, time or money-wise. But in my experience, the most competitive people take care of their dogs like top level athletes and it is not uncommon to find people who pay for acupuncture, massage, physical therapy, chiropractic, etc. in addition to keeping the dogs on an excellent diet and exercise routine. Hell, I bought a house with a pool so I could keep my dogs in shape :rofl1:

that video was amazing!!!

Great videos Dan!!! I really would like to get into PSA, french ring, or mondio, just havent decided yet.

I can watch that video over and over and over again.