would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

BS!!!!! What are you talking about???? I never once said that the dogs would be out of control or not trained......again you are missing the point and don't understand. You completly missed what I meant about being 'free', that didn't mean dogs running amuck all over the place......good grief.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I do not need to allow Victor to be what he was when i got him, which was so highly prey driven he would go right through you to get to what he wanted. How would i let him run free and enjoy himself, something he does just dandy now without teaching him to control his urges? Not chasing down cats (he reallllllly wanted to chase cats) did not make him an unhappy dog. He like Pepper redirected it to other activies that pleased him just as much. It didnt' make him frustrated.

agility? earthdog? terrier racing? flyball? LOL...that same result might've happen faster had she had an outlet...pure conjecture but you know what? I believe it.

Not sniffing on walks...wow...I don't require that much control over my dogs minds on a walk. We aren't patrolling the Czech Border..we are WALKING THE DOG...lol.

This doesn't have much to do with the general discussion, but I have to step in here for a second. I spend a ton of time with Smkie and her dogs...she trains by fun and repetition. Not by choking, dragging, beating or anything else people might think she does because she trained field dogs. She is as sickened by Leerburg as the rest of us are...with the extreme exception of Pepper and her door dodging, I have never seen her use anything except time and focused goals to train. The dogs are ALWAYS having at least 50% of the fun and training is always made into a game. She's helping me with my dogs...and you would be amazed at what her dogs can do, just because she's taken the TIME and EFFORT and worked with them.

Ok, just had to say that.

I can see both sides of the arguments here, I really can. I also think we're still butting up against a dividing wall, because what one side is labeling as "garden variety aggression" is seen as something else by the other side...and then we've got the offshoot of someone who thinks any dog that isn't a stuffed Lassie is aggressive. But, again, I think many people would be simply amazed at what they can get their dogs to do if they put in as much time and dedication to them as I've seen Smkie do. Those of you who have owned or worked with Pointers, you know how absolutely OCD they are about birds, squirrels, basically chasing anything that isn't a statue, right? Vic is still a Pointer, but he's learned that there are times and places to chase (I watched him run after some barn swallows the other day) and times when he needs to focus and leave things be. Many people would say it couldn't be done, that a bird dogs prey drive is just too high. But it can be done and has been done.

I've still veered off from aggression, lol. I know and understand that DA dogs or breeds prone to DA are ALWAYS going to have those instincts. I understand that you can't train them completely out. But I do think that most dogs (not anyone specific on the board) can be trained to a higher level of self-control and management than most people think possible, it just takes hours and hours of dedicated training time. Most people aren't willing to put that time in or are simply unable to because of other time demands. Smkie has the unique position of working from home and can use the 24 hours a day has to offer, instead of squeezing in a couple hours here and there after work and on the weekends.

How many times have we told someone who has a dog that barks how to teach it to be quiet? Or a "leave it" command because they chase or nip feet? I've got an Aussie...a very vocal herding breed by dint of genetics. Granted, he's not the best example because he does still bark his fool head off in play (though he's getting better about not barking at the squirrels all the time) but he does know what "leave it" means...he's not a mindless herding machine. It's all still about drives...we alter a dog's natural drive every single day of the year. I'm digressing again though and can't remember where I wanted to end up.

Have you considered that from the squirrels perspective?? From the rest of your posts, I'm quite surprised by this statement.

My dogs - who do have DA issues, one has HA issues, and dogs I have owned who would kill cats, and dogs who might kill mice and rats if given the chance - are trained to advanced levels. But I don't believe in squelching what the dog was bred to do. Ado's dogs and Dekka's dogs are trained and titled, I have no doubt that they know how to train. I've been to agility trials, things can be very busy and there are a lot of dogs in a small space. I have a lot of respect for the training abilities of anyone who can take multiple JRT's - with the breed's tendency to be DA - to that kind of setting and be successful.

BTW I refer to your quote in your sig..
If I did not allow my hounds to sniff (their biggest enthusiam in life) on a walk...a walk I am on for their and my pleasure btw...they would not be happy. Period.

yes, absolutely! but that still doesn't make my dog unaggressive or make her safe in uncontrolled environments with strange dogs. i will never trust her is the bottom line, and that is what keeps her and other dogs safe.

also, i don't understand not allowing your dog to sniff while on walks. if we're just walking for the fun of it, well, sniffing is a huge part of the experience for a dog. i don't feel i gain anything at all by taking that away. i don't need my dogs to be little robots. i ask that they not pull on leash and that they listen and obey when i ask them to do things. otherwise, they're free to be dogs.

THIS is what I think we're all after, both sides. An acknowledgment of the inherent natures while still understanding that the dog's nature doesn't have to rule their every thought and motion. Luce is and will always be a measure of DA, you know this and so do we. But through training and time, you have made her into a dog that can control herself in public and isn't a slavering idiot anytime she sees another dog.

zoom i thank you from the bottom of my heart. THis thread is like beating my head against a wall but i feel the topic too important not to make the effort. I do have 24 hours a day. But i also worked jobs and went to college. My dogs had to wait just the same as everyone elses. IT is the time i put in before work sometimes at sunup to get er done. ((((((((HUGS))))) i love you so much.

I have wanted to say it on the forum so many times but i just know it is pointless, if you don't have the time, and your not willing to take the time you shouldn't have the dog. Espsecially if lack of teaching becomes aggressive behavior. It makes all the difference in the world 80 percent of what i have read in this thread isnt' dog aggression, it is dogs being dogs. THat is where we are suppose to step in, and teach them to work in our world where they are forced to live. I have given you my best here and if i have insulted you, i don't think the problem is with me. I can back up what i write with what i do. Its all in the focus and the timing. ITs keeping an open mind, t-touch massage helped victor so much i can't even begin to express my gratitude for the open information on this on line. Helped Virgo too. Helps dogs with aggression issues. You have to get teh dogs focus off of what he wants and help him see that you will lead him to safety and happiness. IT all has to be balanced with the right amount of exercise and mental stimulation. BUt honestly i have never had a dog aggressive dog. I had dogs that learned a lesson, like Pepper and Virgo did last week. It was so hard i got a big headache from it but Pepper got the message one hundred percent yes mama. ANd she feels safer now..i know she does. SHe wants to be with us and not running down the road by herself. IT is the only way to get a dog to "that" place. You have to train and train and train. I don't need an obedience class around me, i need a road and a leash. WAlking is leasure when your not being yanked all over the place, when you and your dog can go anywhere public without a worry. It is leasure for them too because they get to go!!!!! ALl kinds of places which fills in the mental stimulation they so desperatly crave.

I believe a higher level of training is allowing your dog to sniff while walking and then asking them to come to a complete controlled heel position and remain there until allowed to sniff again. I do this all the time with muliple dogs off leash, give them a release to do as they please which usually is sniffing and then recalling to a perfect heel and remaining there until released again (if that happens, sometimes and sometimes not).
My dogs don't leave the property, its not allowed. As a matter of fact, I can tell them to stay at home and I can leave by walking down the road, go visit the neigbhors...........the dogs (all jrts) don't leave the property. No fences either btw and no E's either.
And to clarify, by free I meant finding a way for a dog to use their natural born instincts, if its a herding breed or herding cross = herd. Even if people don't hunt their terriers take them to terrier earth trials etc. Look at all the people with labs, easy for them.........get a bumper or a rock and throw it especially into water........dogs natural instincts are being met. Combine that with social skills, good training and boundries and you have a happy content dog with happy content owners and neighbors.

All dogs need engagement of some sort. THat is just common sense. WE are basically in agreement on that. I think tho that if the behavior is unacceptable it can be rerouted into a different behavior. Pepper loves COME TAG BACK which is her "release word". It replaced on your mark get set run away. I do not believe however that if a lab never saw a dead bird, he would be unhappy.

AS to the squirrels, they tease, they taunt, they enjoy the maddness they try to create on the ground. IT in no way harms them to shoot up a tree...teaches them to stay on their toes, some people might let their dogs kill them. They do not abort their fetuses. THey are not even scared.

A dog that has not learned the essentials has a greater chance of being dog aggressive. He has to learn it is not his bone it is your bone and you are saying he can chew on it. You are saying yes this dog can come into my home and you will not be an ass about it. Something that has to be hammered into Victor's head as well. VIrgo too when she is here. THings got much better after our "altercation". THat is training your dog. They don't get it by saying please.

I think you're both saying the exact same things, you just don't realize it.

Nobody is arguing that their animal has a "right" to kill another pet. They're saying that dog aggression is a natural part of many breeds. Yes, it can be managed. But it never goes away. Just like you could probably teach a golden retreiver to never fetch anything, but it will never take away that instinct. And that doesn't make them monsters.

I consider Voodoo to be dog aggressive, even though some people probably wouldn't. He gets along just fine with many dogs and puppies, but there are a few he doesn't like. But even if he doesn't like a dog, he will only get upset if the dog gets right in his face or jumps on him. He can perform obedience commands next to a dog he hates and not have a problem.

But anyway, since we're on the subjects of "rights", let me tell you what my DA dog has the right to do:
-Walk on a leash in a LEASH REQUIRED area without a "friendly" off-leash dog charging up.
-Relax in his secure, fenced-in yard without the neighbor's "boundary trained" dogs trying to start a fence-fight with him.
-Take a stroll through Petco (at heel) without people literally shoving their growling, barking young puppies in his face "so their pup can be socialized."
-Give a warning growl and show his teeth to a hyperactive young labrador pouncing all over him--without the lab's owner telling me my dog is "out-of-control" because he growled. While in the meantime, the lab is dragging its owner around by the leash and play-barking at the top of its lungs.

I taught my dog to behave in public and pay attention to me. I use a leash when necessary and when required by law. I don't let my dog approach another person or another dog without my permission.

If everyone did the same, DA dogs would never be an issue.

The problem is not dog-aggressive, cat-aggressive or small-animal aggressive dogs. The problem is people who don't take responsibility for their pets.

SNiffing is for freetime here. THEre is a ton of that. WAlking is for training and exploring together. I do not want to be yanked all over the place. I would embarrassed to be seen like that in public. I do not want my animals elminating on the city easement in front of people's houses. It is not necesary for my dog's mental health to cover up every spot another dog has urninated on. IF you want your dogs to behave that way that is you. I want mine to mind their manners. THey can sniff on their own time. When we walk, we are on my time. THey are just as happy, and so is LOgan who considers it ..i think i wrote this before but no one has ever walked my dogs on a daily basis because they WANTED TO, i am forever grateful for i am so ill it makes it hard. . He said he considers it an honor to walk my dogs. He would not be able to manage his mastiff mix breed, and his little chi/corgi whatever CHeeto is made up of if my dogs were sniffing everywhere. VIctor wishes to go out and sniff now. HE gets plenty of that, just not in front of the neigbor's house. It just eliminates soooo many walking problems to have heads up instead of heads down. They don't stop smelling the air because their head is a couple feet higher. THey just know they can't mark or lead me, that would be sending some seriously confusing signals. Combining walking with strict obedience makes walking something the dog looks forward to. THus he looks forward to learning as well. GOod behavior means further walks, a quicker step. I have pounded the pavement with Victor, i had to.

what does sniffing...have to do with yanking, or urinating??

i don't know about your dog..but if my bird dog smells voles moles, squirrels fresh trail he wants to follow it. Garbage, is always a danger as well. IF he is allowed to have the lead he is not in control. ANd if he is following his nose, he is in the lead. IF he smells where antoher dog goes it can send a message to his bowels and brain that he needs to do what his insticts tell him to. Does your dog sniff the ground to smell the grass? I figure Victor knows every creature that has crossed that section of earth, what is fresh what is not, he reads it like a newspaper. WE are on our walks to get exercise and to learn. Once they figure out what it all about, they are more then willing participants and the walk is supremely enjoyable to me and anyone else that walks them. WHy that would not be your goal is beyond me.

SNiffing freetime is the reward for a wonderful walk. IT is done afterwards in a safe and controlled enviroment.

Very true and I have proof of that living with me in the form of a dog that most of the *experienced* Fila people would tell me cannot ever be around strangers. A dog who shouldn't be out in public.

A dog whose intelligence and capability and mental flexibility far outstrips their imaginations . . . because they don't have the faith in the breed to be able to adapt and learn and discern. They're still hidebound and following "the Rules."

Zoom and several others can attest to Kharma's ability to live outside the boundaries set by the definition of a Fila. And they can also tell you that it isn't because she's a Fila of soft temperament. They've seen what happens when something's "off."

I'm the exact opposite. Walking is freetime in my house. The whole reason I take my dogs out for walks is so they can explore and have a good time. The dogs can look around and sniff to their heart's content. They don't pee on everything. They don't yank me. They don't lead me. I walk wherever I want to go. They sniff and explore while taking care to stay by me and not tug on the leash.

GP agreed...100%

Me too agree. The only time my dog is allowed to pull on leash is when he is wearing his special padded harness. I want him to pull to build and strengthen muscle. Although I have had him stand up and walk while Air Scenting on leash, but he never puts an ounce of press on that leash, its slack.
One of the most impressive things I have seen him do off leash, was stop, look at a snow drift 30 ft away, fly over to it, dive into 2 ft of snow and come up with a mole. I ve seen his mother do the same thing from that kind of distance, very cool.
Peeing or marking also isn't allowed unless permission is given when on leash and even off leash, fastest way to get a big ol E in agility is to have them 'go' even going into the ring, let alone while in the ring. Even when running loose on my farm, on their time, marking near my agility ring is not allowed, although my neigbhors dogs come over and mark the ring fence all the time. My dogs don't, not allowed.
It's the same as with horses, you can allow them to have a snack of grass while under saddle or on a shank (leading) but that doesn't mean they are dragging you to do it all the time and they weigh a lot more than a dog.