Clicker Training Question

I've never used clicker training before, but I have a clicker now and was considering using it to teach Raja. However, this may be a bit old-fashioned, but I never used treats when training dogs because I didn't want them to only do what they were supposed to do when I had a treat in my hand. So, that is what I'm worried about when it comes to clicker training. What are your opinions?

This is why you work for solid grasps of the concepts, so you can fade out the treats. I clicker-train using treats but you sure don't see me walking around all the time with a handful of treats. That's just cumbersome. I usually have a pocketful of treats at the dog park, just because I'm still re-proofing an automatic recall and working with Sawyer on his retrieve.

My dogs get the bonus of having a great time learning new stuff, it seems to stick a bit quicker than the old way I used to use of just straight praise and I only pull out the treats when teaching a new command. Sometimes I'll grab them for a fun session where it's all stuff they already have down pat, it's just a great way for them to earn some yummies and get some more practice.

Search clicker training for a wealth of information. All dogs work for rewards, whether it is avoiding punishment, or getting praise, or food.

When clicker training we don't have rewards/treats in our hands. The click marks the desired behaviour, then you get a reward and give it to the dog.
The dogs learn that the click means that a reward is to follow. But for clicker training to be successful, you start with a high rate of reinforcement (treats) but you add duration quickly and move to a variable reward system then we fade the clicker and the rewards.
When training with treats in your hand they become part of the cue, which makes success limited.
Check out www.clickertraining.com and www.clickersolutions.com

It is very important to know how to use the clicker and rewards correctly as in any method, its just not about giving a treat.

Well, I did that first. But I saw such mixed opinions. I saw a few sites talking about how well it worked, but I also saw sites like this one that talked about exactly what had been worrying me about starting clicker training. So, I brought the subject here because y'all typically have more experience in this stuff than I do and valuable information to offer up.

Zoom, when do you start phasing the treats out? Just after you think they have a firm grasp of what they need to do?

You need more understanding of operant conditioning and how it works, along with variable reinforcement schedules. Dogs work if they think they MIGHT get a treat, just like humans play slot machines for the same reason.

ALL CREATURES LEARN FROM OPERANT CONDITIONING, including humans.

Treats are used to train the behavior, to say "yes! that was right, here is your reward for making the right choice". Once the dog fully grasps and has learned what you are teaching you start not always giving the treats. To do this you "prefect" the command. For instance you are training let's say lie down. The dog knows to lie down when you say it so you C/T (click and treat) every time she does. Well now that she knows what it means fully you can start making the response better. Only C/T for the faster downs. Once she is downing quickly you can only C/T for the square downs (she's not rocked on one hip) if you want them to be square downs. So once you have perfected her downs by only C/T the really good ones (you can still praise not perfect downs but no C/T, just "good girl!") you can start doing random treats. So this is when you stop clicking, clicking is for teaching the command, it's prefect at this point so you don't need the click, she already knows what you are asking for. So ask for a down and when she does give her a treat, then again and then on the third time praise her for the down but don't treat, then again but treat this time, next time don't treat, again don't treat, then ask for four downs and treat every time. Basically set up a RANDOM (follow NO pattern) treat schedule so she does not know when the treat will come. Eventually start doing less and less treating and more and more regular praising (it's important that even when you treat, you praise as well) without the treat. Soon she will not be expecting a treat every time and her response to your commands will be very automatic and formed out of habit that she will probably not think about the treat at all but will simply respond out of habit or because she genuinely enjoys your praise.

Now also keep in mind if you use treats inappropriately the dog will think they are part of the command. So instead of thinking the cue for down is *mom stands and says "down"* she will think the cue for down is "mom stands with treat in hand and says "down"* and when you say "down" without a treat she'll be confused because she has not learned what that means. So for that reason it is important that treats not be visible during training but be on a table or in your pocket (clicker training is very good for this because a delay between the click and you digging the treat out of your pocket is just fine"). If you have already started having the treats visible and she has become dependent on seeing them what you do is during that time I described when you treat sometimes but not always make sure you only treat the times when the treat is not visible and have the treat visible during the times when you don't treat so she learns not seeing the treat is better than seeing it.

If you need to lure any commands (which with clicker training you might not need to lure very many at all) make sure you loose the lure quickly so it does not become part of the cue. Quickly turn the lure into a hand signal, make the hand signal less dramatic (so for luring "sit" you move the hand over the dog's head. Once you stop luring use the empty hand in the same motion. To make it less dramatic start moving the hand less and less far over her head until she responds to a small forward arc of your hand) and then a spoken command (you say the command wait 1-2 seconds then do the hand signal then C/T. At some point in order to get the treat ASAP the dog will respond some point between the spoken command and the hand signal and that is when she is beginning to understand the word and it means soon but not yet, you can fade the hand signal).

I also suggest you get the book "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller because it's a great book that teaches you how to train many commands using clicker training and how clicker training works. I'm glad your looking into this, it's a LOT better than traditional punishment based methods and makes for a happier training partner who truly enjoys working with you at training.

Clicker training done properly does not in anyway make a dog dependent on treats. The sites that say that just don't understand the training process. Dogs can get dependent on punishments too.

The whole thing is that when you click you have to give something highly rewarding to your dog, most of us use treats as its simple, easy and most dogs value yummy tidbits of food. If your dog is really high drive with toys then you can use toys. But I have a story with that. I had a client (I teach agility) who had taken obed training from a guy who said treats will ruin your dog, your dog will only come when you have treats etc... She had an adorable toller. She joined a class, she was the only one not using treats, as she only used toys. This would have been fine except her dog wasn't really interested in toys. All the other people in the class progressed just fine, and got to the point where the dogs were on a random reward schedule with the treats. Her dog was very reluctant to do things with her, and she had to use the toy a LOT to try to keep her dog 'up'. She ended up thinking her dog wasn't smart enough to do agility! She couldn't get the fact that she had to do what worked for HER dog and not what she thought SHOULD work for her dog.

I have many JRTs. All are clicker trained. They compete in obedience, rally and agility. I don't need food on me for them to perform, they know what they are supposed to do and that sometimes they get treats. Its like gambling (as red said), gambling is exciting cause you don't know which time you will win the 'prize' That is how clicker training works (with all animals)

Thank you all for posting. Maxy, that was very helpful. I'll definitely look into getting that book as soon as possible.

And Dekka, I might be coming to you later on down the road with questions if that's alright. I've been considering doing agility with Raja. I think she'd be great at it and have a lot of fun. I'll have to do a lot of research first, though, because I don't have the first clue as to how I should even get started.

That article was clearly written by someone who doesn't have a clue about how clicker training actually is done.

That's because you are supposed to give them a reward after you click. That's kind of the point. If you aren't going to reward, don't click.

Again, I don't get what is bad about this. If my dog is lunging at other dogs (not something she does "playfully" but certainly a behavior she used to be very good at), I WANT her to be thinking about treats and what she can do to get one. I love that my dog now knows that when we are walking by another dog in close quarters, getting tight to my leg and looking at me means a reward. And you can bet that if I have a treat on my body, she gets it when that happens.

And why does "your dog looking for food" from you NOT help when he's "running in the opposite direction when called"? I have a hound who recalls off of running deer and squirrels; again, she knows that ignoring them and coming to me means a reward (sometimes a treat, sometimes a chance to go chase some more, depending on the situation).

Again, I own a hound. Wanna talk about "independent"?

This makes it pretty clear that the author has no idea how to clicker train. You don't click to get the behavior (here, I'm assuming "stop running and come to me"). You click to reward a behavior that has already occurred.

I have no doubt in my mind that my dog adores me, but I have equally little doubt that centries of selective breeding makes bolting after that squirrel even more fun than making me happy.

Clickers are only used to start behaviours, and they are a godsend!
Yes, dogs can get reliant on terats if they arn't weaned off properly. But its the same with anything. My sister refuses to train with food treats so Mac doesn't get dependant on them, thing is. Mac won't do anything unless you have a toy in your hand, its exactly the same thing.


I think most everything has been covered in this thread by people that know more than me. But in my experience a clicker is the best.
I went from months and months of working on loose leash training with Buster without a clicker and getting pretty much nowhere.
Aftre 4 weeks of clicker training him we are going on nice strolls every afternoon, loose leash, and I'm actually enjoying the walks for the first time ever!

I don't take the clicker anymore, a take a pocket full of treats because this is still a bit raw after 5 years of pulling on the lead so I want to make sure I have treats whenever he does something that makes me so proud.

BostonBanker, I totally agree with everything you just said... that article is CLEARLY not written by an educated individual! He doesn't even seem to understand basic dog behavior. The only thing I agree with him about is, yeah, dogs are NOT morons; which means they are NOT going to work to please their owner if their owner is simply dealing out punishments and reprimands instead of showing them what is GOOD behavior!

I have only been clicker training since I read "Click To Calm" (I highly recommend it) a few months ago, and started reading "Control Unleashed". I have seen REALLY great results. Fozzie is very food-motivated, but he is super stubborn, and loses focus often. With the clicker, he is 100% more attentive. Fozzie is actually picking it up better than Gonzo, the Border Collie who is supposedly the only dog that clicker training can work for. =P

MyHorseMyRules, you should definitely check out the books I mentioned, they really helped me to understand the value of clicker training and EXACTLY how to do it properly.

Dekka, I think you have a new guest blog..

Very clear that person (in the link) doesn't have a clue about clicker training and is a prime example of why it wont work unless done correctly, just the same as any other method.

hmmm yes i could

I think this is really the key to why clicker training doesn't mean automatic goodies forever. That word MIGHT is the point... it makes the game all the more interesting. I sometimes stay with treats after clicking a bit longer than I really need to, when teaching a new behavior, but once I shift to intermittent rewards, my dogs are fine with that.