The Venting Thread

[Psyfalcon]

I think the pledge of allegiance is creepy.

Last I checked saying that, about a group of children every day forced to chant their allegiance to a flag with blank stares does not make me "anti-american"

You see I thought the whole freedom thing meant we could question things and voice our opinions and not be forced to do such a thing but it turns out, that's isn't true and I should "go back to where I came from"

You know that place that isn't America where all the brown people come from. We just fall from the sky

Obviously the whole "god" part needs to be gone. Yesterday, or in 1990 when the godless Soviets collapsed, or better yet, not put in at all in 1954.

The pledge only became the pledge in 1942. I can see some utility in adding "patriotism" in 1942. Mostly I think its harmless, if a little strange. Patriotism should come from a more general love of country rather than a little pledge of dubious use...

Edit: People have been against the pledge for a very long time, for a number of religious or patriotic reasons, so the whole "go back to where you came from" is doubly stupid.

 

[Dogdragoness]

For me, I'm pretty much uncomfortable having it be ritual pledging allegiance to and singing the praises of a government where for a good century it was perfectly okay to ship my bygone relatives across the ocean and mistreat them. Bygones would be bygones for me but I still encounter so many situations where just because i am who I am, there's prejudice coming from people in professions that it simply should not be at all. Obviously there should be no prejudice, but what gets me is people in office and holding ranks where it's pretty hypocritical to simultaneously have the pledge that we do. Equality for all? Some, but many times not me. Even in a diverse city.

Then, by your standards, women in general (who have also been mistreated and discriminated against for 100s of years) should also feel this way.

I'm sorry, but as the child of someone who served this country, I find your statements to be very offensive.

 

[Greenmagick]

Then, by your standards, women in general (who have also been mistreated and discriminated against for 100s of years) should also feel this way.

I'm sorry, but as the child of someone who served this country, I find your statements to be very offensive.

No, by her standards SHE feels this way.

Honestly not sure what someones military involvement has to do with it either....

 

[Melle]

Then it depends on how someone interprets the pledge.

I respect those honest people in the military. But there are also other ways I can show my respect to them specifically, besides a very broad pledge to an entire government that has placed myself, my family, and others like me at a huge disadvantage and at times affected my quality of life.

Like Veterans Day and Memorial Day, I celebrate those. But how I feel about a song that I was forced to repeat everyday as a child, with contradictions and untruths and that kind of is a blanket statement in itself is completely separate from my respect about factions like the military.

 

[sassafras]

Do kids say the pledge anymore?

Really, the reason I find it creepy as hell is because when we said it as kids, we barely even knew what we were saying. It was just a bunch of words we memorized and said at the beginning of the day. Pride in your country is fine, there are many things about the USA I am proud of, but parroting patriotic words as a child... indoctrination much?

 

[Laurelin]

Did y'all have to pledge to the state too? I was confused when we moved here.

"I salute the flag of the State of Oklahoma. Its symbols of peace unite all people."

I guess that's not really a pledge, just a salute.

I never gave the pledge a thought as a kid until my Canadian friend was in my class and she didn't say it. It confused me.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Then it depends on how someone interprets the pledge.

I respect those honest people in the military. But there are also other ways I can show my respect to them specifically, besides a very broad pledge to an entire government that has placed myself, my family, and others like me at a huge disadvantage and at times affected my quality of life.

Like Veterans Day and Memorial Day, I celebrate those. But how I feel about a song that I was forced to repeat everyday as a child, with contradictions and untruths and that kind of is a blanket statement in itself is completely separate from my respect about factions like the military.

Oh, ok. I see now. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

[Paviche]

Do kids say the pledge anymore?

Really, the reason I find it creepy as hell is because when we said it as kids, we barely even knew what we were saying. It was just a bunch of words we memorized and said at the beginning of the day. Pride in your country is fine, there are many things about the USA I am proud of, but parroting patriotic words as a child... indoctrination much?

I agree with this completely.

I also agree with some of what Melle is saying. I'm glad to live in the USA because it could be so, so much worse... but we are not perfect. Far from it. A there are still atrocities happening here that other first world countries don't experience, at least not to the degree that we do. I think that blind allegiance is dangerous.

Also, I'm 1/4 Hispanic (grandmother was 100% Hispanic) and I would NEVER claim to understand what racism feels like. My genetics don't mean crap. What matters is how I look, how people perceive me, and I look white. End of story. Just because my grandmother was brown and experienced racism doesn't mean those experiences somehow passed down through her DNA. It's pretty gross to claim you have any idea what discrimination by race feels like just because an ancestor wasn't white.

 

[sillysally]

We actually learned what the words of the Pledge meant when I was in elementary school.

Yes, this country has issues, but so does every nation. Most governments at some point in time have participated in atrocities and war-humans are capable of incredible cruelty regardless of the nation they call home. There are definitely things I'd change about the US, but all in all I consider myself very lucky to have been born here. There are people in other countries who die for rights and opportunities that we take for granted here. I don't see loyalty to one's country as being the same as blindly accepting everything the government or fellow citizens of said country do. You can be both loyal and a critical thinker.

I don't think it's necessary for kids in school to say daily, but I wouldn't be bothered if my child had to say it, although I'd make it a point to teach them the meaning behind the words.

 

[GipsyQueen]

I think the pledge is extremly creepy. I remember my moms face when for the first time, she took part in a school event and we all had to say the pledge in first grade. (I think this smily explains it well: ) As someone coming from Germany, the pledge is EXTREMLY WEIRD, because here we don't even sing our national song unless we're at a international world cup event and everyone does it. Being "patriotic" here is quickly associated with being a Neo-Nazi. So you can imagine, the um.. shock? Someone from here expierences when about 1000 children say the pledge in unison with their hands over their heart.

I did say the pledge in 1st and 2nd grade because we HAD to... with our hands over our hearts - we were not allowed not to say the pledge, and that's creepy. After 3rd we had the option of not saying the pledge, and I did stop saying it. I quietly stayed in my seat and waiting for everyone to stand there looking at the flag with their hands over their heart, first saying the pledge and then singing the star spangeled banner. In 4th grade my teacher told me I was being direspectful of America and that I had to stand up and say the pledge. I told her no - I wasn't being disrespectful, America just isn't my country and I don't want to say the pledge.

And now even after only say the pledge for 2 years, 15 years later I STILL know every word.

In waldorf school we didn't have to say the pledge at all...

 

[*blackrose]

Abrams is such a BRAT. I'm pretty sure he's learned that if he runs to one of the corners of the yard barking his fool head off that he gets to come inside (because I don't tolerate my dogs barking aimlessly/at the neighbors), so now when he wants to come in in the mornings he'll bark/run for the split amount of time it takes me to get to the door, then he's all, "Look, I'm sitting here by the door, let me in now, please?"

He did that THREE times this morning, all to different corners of the yard.

This is going to be nipped in the bud quickly. Brat dog.

 

[Grab]

Do kids say the pledge anymore?

They must, because my 3 yr old came home reciting it one day a few weeks back...

 

[Fran27]

I find the pledge creepy too, but I find the US' patriotism creepy as a whole. In France, you don't see French flags everywhere, for example.

I had to say it when I got US citizenship, and that totally made sense to me (I did groan at the 'God' part. I mean seriously, you talk about God then of liberty for all...and this country was founded on freedom of religion... contradiction much?). But that's pretty much the only time when it would make sense to say it for me. Otherwise, yeah, it just totally seems like indoctrination to me.

 

[Dizzy]

I did say the pledge in 1st and 2nd grade because we HAD to... with our hands over our hearts - we were not allowed not to say the pledge, and that's creepy. After 3rd we had the option of not saying the pledge, and I did stop saying it. I quietly stayed in my seat and waiting for everyone to stand there looking at the flag with their hands over their heart, first saying the pledge and then singing the star spangeled banner.

Eddie izzards take :

But in America, you win the gold medal, I’ve seen you at the Olympics. You stand there, hand on the hearts… You and the Roman Empire are the only people who’ve ever done that, so be very careful! ‘Cause you’re the new Roman Empire, you realize that? There’s no one else going!

 

[sillysally]

I think it's interesting how different cultures look at patriotism. I can see how in Germany it would be seen as a negative thing, but here we don't have that same collective experience.

We live in a town where there is a decent sized Latino population and it's not uncommon to see the Mexican flag displayed various places, or if not the actual flag the colors of the flag superimposed on a religious icon decal on the back of a vehicle. During the World Cup there was a car I passed on my commute that had a giant Columbian flag attached to the roof of their car. When I was at the World Equestrian Games in 2010 there where European spectators that wore their respective flags draped across their shoulders.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Melle]

I'm suddenly sick now Throat hurts, nose stuffed, and I lost my nonexistent lunch. Woohoo. I really don't wanna miss work tomorrow though.

 

[noludoru]

I don't know if I do or not lol, I don't know what people would consider to be "obviously native American"

Brown skin, (long) strong noses, sharp cheekbones, straight dark hair.

Also, I'm 1/4 Hispanic (grandmother was 100% Hispanic) and I would NEVER claim to understand what racism feels like. My genetics don't mean crap. What matters is how I look, how people perceive me, and I look white. End of story. Just because my grandmother was brown and experienced racism doesn't mean those experiences somehow passed down through her DNA. It's pretty gross to claim you have any idea what discrimination by race feels like just because an ancestor wasn't white.

I have seen pictures DD posted of herself, and she's as lily white as you are with medium-brown curly hair and a round, somewhat puffy face. You couldn't really mistake her as an American Indian. Skittledoo, who I believe is 1/4 Cherokee and has the nose and cheekbones as well as the bone straight hair has never claimed to understand or experience racism because of her ancestry. And she looks way more American Indian, even if most people assume she's 100% white.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Brown skin, (long) strong noses, sharp cheekbones, straight dark hair.



I have seen pictures DD posted of herself, and she's as lily white as you are with medium-brown curly hair and a round, somewhat puffy face. You couldn't really mistake her as an American Indian. Skittledoo, who I believe is 1/4 Cherokee and has the nose and cheekbones as well as the bone straight hair has never claimed to understand or experience racism because of her ancestry. And she looks way more American Indian, even if most people assume she's 100% white.

Lol stalk me online much? If you must know. My father is polish and a red head. My grandfather on my mother's side was german and very white with toe headed hair ... so I guess the white bled through. My Cherokee blood shows through when I tan though.

Forgive me for being nasty but you often seem to go out of your way to be a giant **** to me for no reason.

 

[noludoru]

Lol stalk me online much? If you must know. My father is polish and a red head. My grandfather on my mother's side was german and very white with toe headed hair ... so I guess the white bled through. My Cherokee blood shows through when I tan though.

Forgive me for being nasty but you often seem to go out of your way to be a giant **** to me for no reason.

You posted a pic of yourself in one of my threads.

You spew idiocy and offensiveness like a great geyser of sewer water in most threads you visit. I just like to point out your word vomit to you whenever possible in the hopes of improving your character. Instead of being so put out, you could just thank me for how helpful I am. I guess it all depends on whether you're a glass-empty or glass-full sort of person!

 

[Julee]

l o l