Off on the wrong foot

[ColliesCorsos]

Welcome to the forum ColliesCorsos

I personally believe that prong and electric collars are simply a substitute for patience especially with a pup. Positive reinforcement and love is all that should be necessary unless you want to instill aggression and fear in your dog. But that's just my humble opinion.

We've treated all of our dogs as "people" and I believe they're the better for it.

My own collie is occassionally treated more like a human than a dog...BUT not to the extent that her training has been ruined. I love my dog with everything in me. I would give my life for her just as she would for me, but like I've already said...she's a dog, not a person. Like Julie said, dogs and people communicate differently. They learn differently. A prong collar is not a substitute for patience. Using a prong collar also takes patience. It is a technique used to help dogs learn and if used properly, it works wonders. I used one on mine when I needed to teach tracking. She hated tracking at first, but once she understood it, she began to like it...once I used the prong collar for a while. In a matter of four days, she was following a track. A "shock collar" (e-collar, please) is also very helpful. I have tried it on myself, all levels. It hurt once you got to the top levels, but the lower ones just feel weird. I never use the top levels.

 

[CanadianK9]

You know, I dont mean to prod, but why is it people think that any level of pain has to be inflicted to teach a dog something?

 

[Boxer*Mom]

That is a little extreme.......I guess you don't have children.

Dogs are dogs and therefore cannot be treated like a child.

They communicate differently, learn differently etc.

I love my dogs very much and they are treated great.

But my children will always have to come first.

Julie I do not mean the exact same treatment. I guess I should have put care instead. You know like they get food, water, shelter, exercise, affection, praise, discipline-it just shouldn't be beating them into submission.

 

[Julie]

Julie I do not mean the exact same treatment. I guess I should have put care instead. You know like they get food, water, shelter, exercise, affection, praise, discipline-it just shouldn't be beating them into submission.

Okay. And who here is beating a dog into submission? Did I miss something?

 

[Ebony923]

OK this is a lil off topic but whats an e-collar????? anyways welcome and dont get ur hopes down bout the forum it is very informational as i have found out

 

[Ebony923]

O yeah and iam with Julie who IS beating a dog into submission. did i also miss somthing?!?!?!?!?!

 

[tessa_s212]

E-collar, or electrical collar, is a more polite and correct name/term for the shock collar.

 

[garyluer]

My own collie is occassionally treated more like a human than a dog...BUT not to the extent that her training has been ruined. I love my dog with everything in me. I would give my life for her just as she would for me, but like I've already said...she's a dog, not a person. Like Julie said, dogs and people communicate differently. They learn differently. A prong collar is not a substitute for patience. Using a prong collar also takes patience. It is a technique used to help dogs learn and if used properly, it works wonders. I used one on mine when I needed to teach tracking. She hated tracking at first, but once she understood it, she began to like it...once I used the prong collar for a while. In a matter of four days, she was following a track. A "shock collar" (e-collar, please) is also very helpful. I have tried it on myself, all levels. It hurt once you got to the top levels, but the lower ones just feel weird. I never use the top levels.

e collar, shock collar, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other. It's possible to still inflict pain. Both prong and e-collars are used in negative reinforcement whatever the degree to which they're used and forces the dog to obey unwillingly ouf of fear of a jolt or pain from the prongs. Sorry, yoiu'll never convince me that it's the humane thing to do. Watcj how the militaryh K-9 units train their dogs. They use positive reinforcement.

 

[tessa_s212]

It's possible to still inflict pain. Both prong and e-collars are used in negative reinforcement whatever the degree to which they're used and forces the dog to obey unwillingly ouf of fear of a jolt or pain from the prongs. Sorry, yoiu'll never convince me that it's the humane thing to do.

garyluer, although I am a big advocater of positive reinforcement, saying that these training tools is out right unhumane, is incorrect. When used properly they can make wonderful, effective training tools. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that I'd ever want to use an e-collar on my dogs, but I certainly cannot be prejudic against others so long as they have tried more positive methods before this and they have not worked. I will reiterate. I don't believe using these training tools equals abusing your dog, but it should be a last resort. If positive reinforcement and other methods do not work, I see no problem with a person using this tool properly to train the dog. I'd rather the dog get a "shock"(more like a tingling vibration), than it run off on its owner and get hit by a car.

I will also say that I do not advocate teacing basic obedience with this tool. There are better ways to teach basic obedience such as sit, down, or stay, but things such as off leash recalls, this tool can be effective and safe.

 

[Ebony923]

I agree with tessa if those training tools are used PROPERLY then they can help extermely with training your dog and if u train with treats and nothing else the dog is working for the treat not you so what happens when in an emergancy you need the dog to listen and you dont have that treat do you think the dog is going to listen to you probablly not

 

[garyluer]

I'd rather the dog get a "shock"(more like a tingling vibration), than it run off on its owner and get hit by a car.

I will also say that I do not advocate teacing basic obedience with this tool. There are better ways to teach basic obedience such as sit, down, or stay, but things such as off leash recalls, this tool can be effective and safe.

Well certainly a "shock" is preferable to being hit by a car but what "dog" person would let their dog off leash or unsupervised to put it in that position? I'm sorry, but those training methods smack of the "easy way" out.

 

[tessa_s212]

Kelli, just as there is a right and wrong way to train with e-collars and prongs, there is a right and wrong way to train with positive reinforcement(ie: training with treats).

http://www.clickandtreat.com/FF01.htm
Clicker Training: What it Isn't

The above link is actually about clicker training, but it can be just as well talking about positive reinforcement.

 

[tessa_s212]

Well certainly a "shock" is preferable to being hit by a car but what "dog" person would let their dog off leash or unsupervised to put it in that position? I'm sorry, but those training methods smack of the "easy way" out.

Maybe someone that competes in agility or obedience? Maybe the trial just happens to be held outdoors. Or maybe someone that has kids that let their dog out? Possibly someone that hunts? Or what about a dog park? Or, *gasp* your dog sitter was walking the dog, the dog starts pulling, and the leash slips from his/her hand?

Things happen. You cannot always be so judgemental of others and their choices and/or mistakes. Sometimes things aren't always just a lack of responsibility or supervision. And when those accidents happen, it is best to have a dog with a reliable recall.

 

[Ebony923]

Tessa- I was just trying to make a point i wasnt saying that positive reienforcement is training with treats because its not and i have actually started using some positive methods with ebony for agility(big). But yes i see were you were coming from and Garyluer- if you have ever tried to train a dog with any kind of training method you will find that it's NEVER easy and it takes a whole lot of patients and work

 

[CanadianK9]

You know, I dont mean to prod, but why is it people think that any level of pain has to be inflicted to teach a dog something?

I repeat my prior question and am still awaiting a valid response

 

[Ebony923]

No method of training is ever inflicting pain on a dog if PROPERLY used. If a method of training isnt being PROPERLY used or a training tool isnt being PROPERLY used THEN it might cause pain to be inflicted on the dog.

 

[CanadianK9]

LoL, what do you think the collar is made to do in the first place, It is made to inflict a short pain so the dogs attention redirects, you still havent answered my question, I still ask, how do you justify the NEED to inflict pain to teach a dog something

 

[tessa_s212]

how do you justify the NEED to inflict pain to teach a dog something

I dont' know... why would one spank their child?

It has the same reasoning behind it. If the child(or dog) is punished for a particular behavior, they will not want to repeat that behavior again in fear that they will get a spanking.

The major difference is, dogs are not children. They can not reason like a human can. There is a language barrior the refuses to let you sit down and tell the dog what they did wrong. If punished improperly, the dog will become confused and will not know what it did wrong. Which, if the human repeats the same correction in the same manner, can lead to a scared/fearful/timid dog that is afraid to make mistakes, but does not know what is the behavior you want.

IMO, there is little or no need to inflict pain on a dog while training. And if you do choose to use tools that inflict "pain"(e-collar shouldn't actually give pain, but more of a tingling vibration..like static shock), you should use it properly, while still using the act of positive reinforcement(reinforcing good behavior when it is achieved).

And just to lighten things up a bit.. I bet this is the longest Introduction thread I've ever seen.

 

[MyDogsLoveMe]

Well I wont get into this debate or swapping of opinions. I dont use the e-collar but trust me I have thought about it with Nalla who is very difficult sometimes.

Anyhow, my name is Cindy I am married with 4 children and 2 grandkids with one more on the way.

I have 2 dogs - Nalla is a 2 yr old pitbull who is very stubborn. She is my jumper and I have to keep her restrained on a chain when she is outside. We got her fixed in hopes that maybe she will gain enough weight so that it is harder for her to jump. I dont mind the jumping, but I dont agree with letting a dog run loose and so I do that to protect her and others.

Issabella aka Izzy B is a 9 month old Siberian Husky who is a very lively pup and a loveable one when she wants the loves. She to is very stubborn, but doesnt jump.

I work from home, take care of my grandbabies Alex who is 4 and Brooklyn who is 8 months. The new one is due around July so I will have 3 to keep a watchful eye over. I also do call center work at home (well start training Tue. 12/13) and will be watching over a 12 yr old handicapped boy for a few hours when he gets home from school.

So anyhow, it is nice to meet you. As it has been posted here many times, you will find a diverse group of people here but we all have ONE thing in common, our love for animals. Welcome aboard, dont take it personally if there is something said that you dont agree with, we are all just here to help.

 

[Boxer*Mom]

Ebony and Julie it's an expression, not to be taken so literally.