[B]White dobermans[/B]

[doberkim]

red, blue, fawn and white are all genetic defaults. I was going to get a test from vet gen for Tas for color and I was speaking to one of the ladies who has sent me some info on the differences in dobermans and EVEN the red dobe is a dilution which is sad...

technically, red is not a dilution is it? - i have never heard this, and all the research and genetics i have studied indicate red is a dominant color. fawn, is a dilution of red, and blue is a dilution of black. red is not a dilution of any color - it is the same color we see in chocolate labs, liver GSHPs, etc.

I have spoken to many breeders this week who have talked to me abut prince and they requested to see him and all have and they are amazed at how dark he is... and all have agreed and said... to be albino you would LACK ALL pigment.... have red pupils and so on with the albinist traits.

i have personally provided proof that this is not true - the research indicates they are partially tyrosine kinase positive. all albinos are NOT "white" with red eyes - i have shown proof from national orgs and real life albinos that they can have clored eyes. i dont know what breeders you are talking to, but i would be concerned over their knowledge of genetics if they think red is a dilution.

Though some of the people would love to get me into an arguement over this so they can try to get me to leave It wont happen...

no one is trying to argue or make anyone leave - i am simply wondering where you are finding out this information, and what leads you to believe that. i am a scientifically grounded person, in the medical field, with a bachelors of science, and i am curious as to what information you have, since it contradicts what i know and have researched. as i do with any subject that i am introduced to new info with. if theres other info out there that i should be aware of, let me know!

Anyway... if you want real info DPCA isnt where you want to go... you should stop call any university around you and ask them for their albino genome research reports to understand how they work....

my friend has done this and has yet to actually find a school that has an albino genome research project regarding the doberman - she also checked the three schools you mentioned before. are there other schools? if you have contacts at the schools that can giev me the information on these studies and projects that are going on, i would love to know about it.

Fortunately many other of us people and Doberman Clubs have done more research and have found things out about genomes that DPCA hasnt because they refuse to do another set of testing and statistical research to determine actually what is with Whites/Cream/ or so on....

again, if you have the results of this research, i would love to have them. you said at one point you were emailing them, but you never sent the links or the faxes, etc

Because His genome came back on the D locus where as any albino will show up on the C Locus...

the test you linked me to did not test for the c locus, did it? the website i got to from there didnt have any test for c loci in dobermans. his genome is actually on MANY loci - even albino dobermans have the d locus - its the c locus that modifies all the other loci. maybe i went to the wrong page on that website, but i didnt see any testing for other loci.

 

[doberkim]

There was evidence presented by another forum member somewhere else that all white Dobermans are albinos....that there is no such thing as white without having the albino gene.

actually, just to be truthful - in OTHER species and breeds there IS white without albinism - samoyeds and white GSDs for instance - they have white fur and skin, and have black pigment elsewhere.

The other member was a biology student and presented a very well, spelled out, scientifically backed explanation from informational research from some well renouned universities. She may or may not come to this thread with her extensive and well written explanation.

that person i know has read this thread, but i do not know if she is currently posting. i know she is heavily involved in her research now and spent 7 hours in the lab today alone

 

[elle]

as lexus has said if you have the money to do the genome tests out there and you findout your white is an albino you should never bred it because yes genetics does play a huge role in dogs and humans...

Please show me where Lexus has said this. It simply is not true. There is NO test on the market that can tell if a dog is an albino or not. None of the major labs offer this type of test, and if it is available, please provide proof of such. You have provided links to other genetic coat color tests, but not have included a test for albinism.

I was going to get a test from vet gen for Tas for color and I was speaking to one of the ladies who has sent me some info on the differences in dobermans and EVEN the red dobe is a dilution which is sad...

Red is not a dilution. There is no debate about this, according to scientific terms, it just ISN'T. It is the recessive form of black.

Why would you get a vetgen test for a blue doberman? The vetgen tells you which alleles of the genes are present at the B locus.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, let me provide a brief explanation of doberman coat color genetics:

There are two genes that determine coat color in the doberman: the "B" gene and the "D" gene. Every organism carries two copies of each gene. However, these two copies are not always exactly the same - there are variant forms called alleles. There are two alleles of the "B" gene -- B (big B) and b (little B). B is dominant over b, which means, if even one copy is present it will mask the little b. Thus, an dog that is BB or Bb is black and a dog that is bb (no big B present) is red.

The "B" gene codes for a protein that makes pigment in the hair. The pigment is either black (BB, Bb) or red (bb). The "D" gene, or dilution gene, controls how much of the pigment from the "B" gene is produced. D (big D -- the animal would be DD or Dd) is dominant, and makes the full amount of pigment. d (little d -- the animal would be dd) makes less pigment. Thus, and animal that is dd would be a dilution of the original red or black.

BB or Bb along with a DD or Dd would be a black dog. bbDD or bbDd would be a red dog. BBdd or Bbdd would be a blue dog. Finally, bbdd would be a fawn dog.

These are the clasically known alleles of these genes in the doberman. Thus, there is no "room" for these genes to encode a fifth color -- white. If there were different (called "mutant" in genetic terms) forms of these genes, then the "white" dogs produced would still be mutant dogs in genetic terms. Thus, it is of little relevance whether or not these dogs are albino or not, if their genetic makeup varies from standard (as it obviously does by their phenotype, or how they look) then they should not be bred.

to be albino you would LACK ALL pigment.... have red pupils and so on with the albinist traits. Though some of the people would love to get me into an arguement over this so they can try to get me to leave It wont happen...

This again, simply is not true. There are many, many different types of albinos and pigment disorders. Not all result in white with red eyes. There are also other very deleterious mutations that occur that are not related to albinism at all. The fact is these animals are genetic mutants and should not be bred.

you should stop call any university around you and ask them for their albino genome research reports to understand how they work....

Which universities are doing this type of research? You have been touting this "evidence" across the internet for months now, but have not been able to produce it. Why? Because it does not exist. I am very adapt at searching the primary scientific literature at this point in my life and have free access to almost every publication through my school and there is nothing there.

The research the DPCA did over half a century ago is not out of date. It was conclusive, and since there is not much profit in dog coat color genetics, much of it has not been repeated. Albinism in rodents (who have much more complex color genetics) has been widely studied and widely understood. These things are no longer "cutting edge" research topics -- they are regarded as fact.

Princes Genome report... Because His genome came back on the D locus where as any albino will show up on the C Locus...

Not exactly sure what this statment means. Could you please post the full results of the genetic testing you had done?

Your phrase doesn't even make sense. A genome is an organism's genetic material. A locus is the physical location of a gene on a chromosome. So, how would his genome (or his entire genetic material) come back "on" the location of one gene? All dogs will have genes at both the D and C loci... So, if he is missing genes at the C locus altogether, well, he wouldn't be alive (or as kim likes to say, "that is inconsistent with living").

If there was a genetic test, it would determine which alleles of the D and C genes he had in his genome. It would tell you whether he had the dominant or recessive alleles discussed above at the D locus. And it would tell you if he had the dominant (not albino) or recessive (albino) alleles at the C locus.

If anyone has any questions about this feel free to ask... As witnessed by white's post, techinical terms are often thrown around with little understanding of what they actually mean...




*edited to fix tags

 

[elle]

that person i know has read this thread, but i do not know if she is currently posting. i know she is heavily involved in her research now and spent 7 hours in the lab today alone

that person would be me, just to clarify...
and yes, i spent forever in lab today... my mycobacteria did not want to cooperate!

 

[doberkim]

So, if he is missing genes at the C locus altogether, well, he wouldn't be alive (or as kim likes to say, "that is inconsistent with living").

dude, get your quotes accurate

its "incompatible with life"!

 

[Doberluv]

Kim....yes, I know that in other species white is not necessarily albino. But as far as I understand, Dobermans do not come in white unless they have albino genes. I will leave this debate up to you smart biologists. I certainly know very little about genetics, having studied a tip of a tip off the iceberg in school. lol.

Anyhow, nothing personal here. It's really just an interesting scientific study. Of course we dog lovers love most every dog...doesn't matter if it's white or albino....we're just giving opinions here as to whether they should be bred or not....stuff like that. So anyone who has a white need not take personal offense, plus, of course there are some without any problems and that's great....still shouldn't be bred.

And no....red is not a dilute. I believe fawn is the dilute of red and blue the dilute of black.

 

[Whitedobelover]

nothing is incompatible.... just because it shows up on the D locus you are getting upset hahaha... i love it

 

[doberkim]

Kim....yes, I know that in other species white is not necessarily albino. But as far as I understand, Dobermans do not come in white unless they have albino genes. I will leave this debate up to you smart biologists. I certainly know very little about genetics, having studied a tip of a tip off the iceberg in school. lol.

Anyhow, nothing personal here. It's really just an interesting scientific study. Of course we dog lovers love most every dog...doesn't matter if it's white or albino....we're just giving opinions here as to whether they should be bred or not....stuff like that. So anyone who has a white need not take personal offense, plus, of course there are some without any problems and that's great....still shouldn't be bred.

And no....red is not a dilute. I believe fawn is the dilute of red and blue the dilute of black.

oh i understood what you were saying - i just didnt want OTHERS to think something else

i agree, its an interesting subject, and i find genetics fascinating!

 

[Whitedobelover]

doberluv the difference between me and kim is Im in Medical school and a major in microbiology and have studied dna extensively because of my family history... Kim is in vet school I think... and has only studied a bit of dna and no offense to kim becuase she is extremely smart and has alot of knowledge... but she doesnt work with dna on a daily basis and has NEVER done a thesis on Genetics heheh... i havent myself but my bestfriends thesis was on Genetics and she espically (sp?) talked about mutated genes... not specifically Albinism all the way thru but she did do test and research albinistic genes extensively... which is the person and her professor who done our white dobermans test...

Kim....yes, I know that in other species white is not necessarily albino. But as far as I understand, Dobermans do not come in white unless they have albino genes. I will leave this debate up to you smart biologists. I certainly know very little about genetics, having studied a tip of a tip off the iceberg in school. lol.

Anyhow, nothing personal here. It's really just an interesting scientific study. Of course we dog lovers love most every dog...doesn't matter if it's white or albino....we're just giving opinions here as to whether they should be bred or not....stuff like that. So anyone who has a white need not take personal offense, plus, of course there are some without any problems and that's great....still shouldn't be bred.

And no....red is not a dilute. I believe fawn is the dilute of red and blue the dilute of black.

 

[doberkim]

nothing is incompatible.... just because it shows up on the D locus you are getting upset hahaha... i love it

no one is upset, who is upset?

there are many things that are incompatible with life, including homozygous lethal whites in some species

elle's statement, however, is that entirely lacking genes at a certain locus would be incompatible with life -- which in many instances, it would. but its oversimplifying in some instances...i think she was trying to make a point!

i dont see anyone getting upset- everyone so far has been very rational, IMO!

 

[Whitedobelover]

the fact of the matter is you dont know genetics you know what DPCA has told you... let you do your own studies lol instead of relying on someone whose studies are older than dirt... lol

 

[doberkim]

doberluv the difference between me and kim is Im in Medical school and a major in microbiology and have studied dna extensively because of my family history... Kim is in vet school I think... and has only studied a bit of dna and no offense to kim becuase she is extremely smart and has alot of knowledge... but she doesnt work with dna on a daily basis and has NEVER done a thesis on Genetics heheh... i havent myself but my bestfriends thesis was on Genetics and she espically (sp?) talked about mutated genes... not specifically Albinism all the way thru but she did do test and research albinistic genes extensively... which is the person and her professor who done our white dobermans test...

elizabeth, no offense to you, but you don't know what i have and have not done. how are you majoring in something in medical school - isn't that undergrad? im still confused how you have done medical school in three years since you just graduated from HS at 18 (so you said in the past here) - and now youre a 4th year med student? took me 8 years to become a 4th year vet student - 4 years undergrad and 4 years of vet school. but either way -


microbiology has nothing to do with genomes. thats genetics. microbiology is the study of small organisms like viruses, bacteria, and protozoa. it has nothing to do with genetics...so you wouldnt be doing a thesis based on genetics either if youre working in microbiology.

 

[poeluvr]

no one is upset, who is upset?

there are many things that are incompatible with life, including homozygous lethal whites in some species

elle's statement, however, is that entirely lacking genes at a certain locus would be incompatible with life -- which in many instances, it would. but its oversimplifying in some instances...i think she was trying to make a point!

i dont see anyone getting upset- everyone so far has been very rational, IMO!

this is generalim just responding to what doberkim said)
perhaps some people aren't used to the way some people are responding to them(nobody's saying stuff meanly, but you dont have to be mean, to offend someone)...we all come from different states, provinces , even countries, with different backgrounds...
If you think of it..what makes the white dob dangerous to breed, if all thats different about it is the colour of its fur and eyes..?-just a thought

 

[Whitedobelover]

i have already majored lol...i didnt graduate high school at 18 lol.... and your right i know what it has to do with if you read what i said... lol i said i studied genetics while majoring lol... read kim... i didnt do a thesis read again lol a friend of mine did a thesis on genetics and now she is graduating this year as a scientist lol... read please dont just assume and jump through and pick words please... lol i graduated at 15 lol and was in college the same year lol

 

[doberkim]

the fact of the matter is you dont know genetics you know what DPCA has told you... let you do your own studies lol instead of relying on someone whose studies are older than dirt... lol

only one of us has proven to have shabby knowledge of genetics elizabeth - i don't think its me here. i havent gotten genomes, genes, and microbiology confused. i would think if you were truly doing a genetics thesis you would know about homozygous lethal genes that are in fact, incompatible with life.

one of the best examples - google this:
overo homozygous lethal



i think it would be best instead of trying to attack peoples educations, etc that we focus on the issue at hand. this isnt a personal attack and doesnt have to be - lets focus on the actual issue instead of the people. insulting peoples educations, etc in no way has anything to do with albino dobermans, be it their genetics, their health, or temperament, etc.

 

[Whitedobelover]

poe you are correct... infact so are the reds, blues and fawn... all are different than the original. lol and i would have to agree with your questions and assumptions

 

[Whitedobelover]

you just proved you have no knowledge lol... of genetics let alone anything else other than veterinary info

 

[Whitedobelover]

no one attacks education but you...i never said anything other than you are smart but you havent done genetics... nor have i though i have studied genetics and i absolutely am fascinated by them however I dont have to study them when my best friend is a genetic scientist... or a genisist as they are formally called

 

[doberkim]

i have already majored lol...i didnt graduate high school at 18 lol.... and your right i know what it has to do with if you read what i said... lol i said i studied genetics while majoring lol... read kim... i didnt do a thesis read again lol a friend of mine did a thesis on genetics and now she is graduating this year as a scientist lol... read please dont just assume and jump through and pick words please... lol i graduated at 15 lol and was in college the same year lol

youwrote here you were just in high school two years ago, didnt you?
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php? t=12415&page=1&pp=10&highlight=private

 

[doberkim]

no one attacks education but you...i never said anything other than you are smart but you havent done genetics... nor have i though i have studied genetics and i absolutely am fascinated by them however I dont have to study them when my best friend is a genetic scientist... or a genisist as they are formally called

actually, they are called geneticists.

as i said, how do you know that i have not done genetic research, or studied genetics?

you just proved you have no knowledge lol... of genetics let alone anything else other than veterinary info

proved i have no knowledge, where? i have asked you repeatedly for proof on what you propose to be true - and you have not been able to provide that to me. just a few posts prior to this you said i DID have a lot of knowledge...

back to the issue at hand. if there are studies and research projects currently being performed on white/albino/dobermans of another color - i would love to know about them! i have been unable as of yet to locate any on my own, so if you can provide me with some contact info, that would be much appreciated.