Would you let your kids play with Michael Vick?

Amstaffer

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#21
Lilavati... Your faith in mankind is much stronger than mine. I worked in the prison system as a correctional officer for 9 years and saw many "remorseful" people. The remorse is almost always that they got caught but if they were given complete immunity they would go right back to what got them in trouble before.

Evil...You say that tribe wasn't evil because they were good to their kids. So if the child molester who only harms the neighbor kids isn't evil? If you torture another living creature that is innocent of any crime and for no other purpose than entertainment....you are evil and a monster. Are you a threat to all creatures (your kids) no but you are still evil.

Founding Fathers and slavery....They did some great things setting up this country but if they owned people they were monsters to those people. Some were less evil than others but evil never the less. The same goes for the Romans...ask a Gaul slave as to whether his Roman master was a monster. A legal and accepted monster but still a monster.
 

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#22
How about the people who buy illegal drugs and support the illegal drug traders who commit all kinds of torturous acts? The people buying/using the drugs aren't hurting anybody except maybe themselves, or are they? We don't tend to think of them as evil or monsters, though.

I understand what Lili is saying. I think of evil and monster as someone who is incapable of loving another person or being. Those are the people who I think can't ever feel any remorse for what they've done.

I think, from some of the things they've written, some of our forefathers were feeling quite a bit of conviction even in the midst of what they were doing.

You can be brought up around something vile and not realize it's wrong until much later. I'm sure many people who have worked long and hard in trying to rid our country of racial discrimination were possibly children who grew up with racism being a way of life.

I've had people who've driven while under the influence and killed someone talk to my kids. Of course, I didn't know they were.....it was done at school and I found out later. I was good with that. I honestly am not sure how I would feel if the same school arranged for Michael Vick to come in.
 

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#23
The person buying the drug IMHO is not evil...stupid? Maybe but not evil. The lealders of the drug cartels (yes including Phillip Morris) are evil in my opinion.

Racism is a thought system (a very bad one at that), but it takes discrimination (which is an act) to actually be evil. If someones parents raised them to have racist beliefs or to have sexual thoughts about children because of abuse that doesn't make that person evil (actually a victim IMHO) but when they go ahead and act out in those belief systems they become evil.

If I think about hitting you with a stick I am not evil, If I bash your head in with that stick....I am evil.
 

mjb

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#24
I guess I think of doing bad things and being evil as 2 different things. Everyone does bad things. I think of evil as being devoid of love, being unable to love.

I have no idea is M. Vick is evil, but I know he did some evil acts. He has not proven he's NOT, I suppose.

No, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want him to be around my children. Years from now, I might have a different answer. He MIGHT prove himself. He might not.

If I owned a business I would not want to be the one to hire the convict being released from prison. Someone should and will, but I wouldn't want it to be me. I want to wait until he earns some trust.

I guess I'm not usually the one to go out on a limb for someone.
 

mjb

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#25
I was actually thinking about racism as an act. As a child, not playing with the child in your class because of the color.....possibly because that's what you're taught at home.

Not allowing people with certain color skins to be served in your restaurant, etc.

I'm thinking some people who have acted in racists ways might be some of the very people who ended up as activists to try to make discrimination on the basis of color illegal.

So, I would have to decide if I would hold their earlier evil acts against them or if I would believe that they're remorseful based on their later activism.

In my day-to-day life with people I actually personal interaction with, I seldom if ever have those decisions to make, though, about people who have done criminal-type activities.
 

Lilavati

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#26
Another long answer:

A child molester harms humans. Moreover, he harms humans in a way that has been condemned pretty much throughout human history. He lives in a culture where it is the worst crime imaginable. Yes, he's a monster . . . or, if he is capable of remorse, somone who has done something very evil and can be judged harshly.

I actually don't think the Founding Fathers were monsters, not even monsters to their slaves. By all accounts, the two I know the most about treated their slaves well for the time. I live right near Mount Vernon, and the decendents of Washington's slaves often volinteer there . . . they don't hate him, and I don't think their ancestors did either. Many are rather proud of their heritage. That doesn't mean that keeping slaves isn't wrong. It is wrong. But it was common practice at the time, both in the US, and for that matter, in Africa. I suspect the slaves themselves viewed themselves as fortunate to have a decent man as an owner. A person who did the same thing today would be a monster. But General Washington was a good man for his time. He did not know that it was a horrible crime to own other humans (though he had doubts about it) but he did know it was wrong to torture those human beings, or to mistreat them, he did not do so. Would a Gaul view his Roman owner as a monster? I have no doubt he would rather have been free . . . but that not being the way it was done in Rome (or Gaul) don't you think he would have been glad to have a kind master who fed him well and did not beat him? Who gave him days off and let him marry? Wouldn't you think, in the context of ancient Rome, that such a master would be a good man . . . and the one who beat and tortured his slaves an evil one? The Romans themselves saw it that way, and I suspect so did many of the slaves. They didn't know any different . . . master or slave . . . that was just the way the world was. We know now that that is injust, immoral, and evil. They did not.

Saying that a person in the past was a good man, despite the fact they did things we view as evil, does not justify those evil things. They were still evil. But the person was not. There is a difference, in my mind, of saying that a custom or practice is wrong, or evil, and saying that a person, living in a place and time where that pratice occurs is wrong, or evil, or a monster. Although I think that there are things that are eternally wrong, I think that the human race has to learn what those are . . . as we have done throughout history. If we judge people of the past by our standards, then they were virtually all monsters. Name someone fameous who lived more than 100 years ago, and (at least if I have heard of them) I can probably show you a person who would be monster today. But they weren't monsters. They were people, doing the best they knew how to do, often good and noble people, decent people. If they did evil things, they did not do them to be evil, they did them because that was how things were done then. I try to judge people by whether they were a good person for their time and place . . . because to do otherwise is unfair.

My great-grandchildren may be horrified that I ate meat, or that I drove a gasoline-fueled car, or that I situated myself as generally pro-choice, or that I think a capitalist economy is the best choice, or that I believe in just war. They might not, too. They may think my generation were monsters for another reason. In the future, when people have become wiser (and we have, as hard as it is to believe these days) I may be viewed as a monster. I don't claim to be a good person, but I don't believe I am a monster. My grandmother treated dogs in a way that would not be acceptable today, but she was viewed as a good breeder at the time; my other late grandmother was a racist. She wasn't mean to people of other races, but she did view them as inferior. That was wrong. If she had been my age, I would have judged her very harshly (I let loose on a cousin about just that). But she was 92 when she died . . . much of her life, that viewpoint was normal . . . I don't consider it laudable, but I won't condemn her for it either.

You are right though. I have a lot of faith that most people, most of the time, are doing the best they can do, and that most people are decent. I don't mean that most people are good. Most people are not good. Most people are not capable of being good. They're just trying to be as good as they can, and they will try to do the right thing, at least if its not too much trouble for them. The ones who aren't trying . . . well, many of those are the ones that turn up in jail. But I do believe that people can reform and change. Learn to be considerate of others. Not everyone, some are rotten to the bone, but many of them can. Whether they chose to do so is another question. Its not that I believe that there are not evil people in the world . . . there unquestionably are. Its not that there aren't plenty of them . . . but I think most people, if they chose to, can turn themselves around.

As I noted, the issue of Mr. Vick and the issue of people in the past are different, he doesn't get the "man of his place and time" card. However, I know people of my generation who were raised to think of animals very differently than I do. That doesn't excuse cruelty: its illegal, and basic empathy should intervene. But it does mean that he may not be a monster who derives pleasure from the suffering of living things . . . and if that is true, then I suspect he can, if he choses, redeem himself. That is his responsibility. If the circumstances were to come up, I would judge him on that. I might judge him very harshly. But I do not know him, beyond what I have read in the press . . . and the press is not always fair. Was Michael Jackson a pervert or a harmless child-man? I don't know, and reading the press would never tell you. Has Vick reformed himself? I don't think I can learn that by reading the paper.
 

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#27
I don't think I can judge whether or not another person is evil because I can't see their heart. I can know if they did an evil act, but I can't see in their heart if they feel extreme remorse for it, if they feel like they deserve the key to the prison thrown away or worse because of it.

I think some people do have a change of heart. Some don't. I can't see inside them to know. People who are close to them might see, in time.

I do think some who have committed crimes AND have changed their lives around might have some things they can share with people about what happens if you fall into the traps of the society around you.
 

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#28
I was actually thinking about racism as an act. As a child, not playing with the child in your class because of the color.....possibly because that's what you're taught at home.
People often get Racism, Discrimination and Prejudice mixed up. They often go hand in hand but not always. Many people are racist (believe their race is superior) but don't treat other people differently (Discriminate).
 

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#29
I actually don't think the Founding Fathers were monsters, not even monsters to their slaves. By all accounts, the two I know the most about treated their slaves well for the time. I live right near Mount Vernon, and the decendents of Washington's slaves often volinteer there . . . they don't hate him, and I don't think their ancestors did either. Many are rather proud of their heritage. That doesn't mean that keeping slaves isn't wrong. It is wrong. But it was common practice at the time, both in the US, and for that matter, in Africa. I suspect the slaves themselves viewed themselves as fortunate to have a decent man as an owner. A person who did the same thing today would be a monster. But General Washington was a good man for his time. He did not know that it was a horrible crime to own other humans (though he had doubts about it) but he did know it was wrong to torture those human beings, or to mistreat them, he did not do so. Would a Gaul view his Roman owner as a monster? I have no doubt he would rather have been free . . . but that not being the way it was done in Rome (or Gaul) don't you think he would have been glad to have a kind master who fed him well and did not beat him? Who gave him days off and let him marry? Wouldn't you think, in the context of ancient Rome, that such a master would be a good man . . . and the one who beat and tortured his slaves an evil one? The Romans themselves saw it that way, and I suspect so did many of the slaves. They didn't know any different . . . master or slave . . . that was just the way the world was. We know now that that is injust, immoral, and evil. They did not.
Actually Washington did know better and that is one reason why he treated his slavers better than most. You could argue in a sense this made him worse. He knew it was wrong as he was very educated and versed in philosophy and ethics but yet continued. Granted he was much better (as many of the slave owners were in the northern part of the south) as far as treatment and no doubt his slave thanked their luck stars they were not on a southern Georgia cotton plantation. The fact still remains that he bought and sold human beings especially knowing better.

There is also evidence that foundling fathers had sex with their slaves and by definition a slave can't give consent (especially underage ones) thus this was a form of rape.


Saying that a person in the past was a good man, despite the fact they did things we view as evil, does not justify those evil things. They were still evil. But the person was not


You could say that about any villain in history. Even Hitler and Stalin did some good things can we say they weren't evil? At what point does the evil acts justify the label of evil person? I think their are degrees of evil but if you commit evil acts you are evil...at least in part. If you torture dogs, especially your own dogs...you are evil in my book.
 

Buddy'sParents

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#30
First, I absolutely believe that people deserve a second chance at life and I do believe that people can change.

However.

To commit acts that Vick has, one's moral, ethical, codes/values are crap. Dog fighting and torture are horrible acts. I want my children to be surrounding by good, ethical, moral people. I want them to have strong influences in their lives. Someone who has committed such horrible acts as Vick's has against animals, does not fit the above categories in my mind.

So yea, my children would find a new club to partake in after school/summer activities in.
 

Lilavati

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#31
I actually don't think the Founding Fathers were monsters, not even monsters to their slaves. By all accounts, the two I know the most about treated their slaves well for the time. I live right near Mount Vernon, and the decendents of Washington's slaves often volinteer there . . . they don't hate him, and I don't think their ancestors did either. Many are rather proud of their heritage. That doesn't mean that keeping slaves isn't wrong. It is wrong. But it was common practice at the time, both in the US, and for that matter, in Africa. I suspect the slaves themselves viewed themselves as fortunate to have a decent man as an owner. A person who did the same thing today would be a monster. But General Washington was a good man for his time. He did not know that it was a horrible crime to own other humans (though he had doubts about it) but he did know it was wrong to torture those human beings, or to mistreat them, he did not do so. Would a Gaul view his Roman owner as a monster? I have no doubt he would rather have been free . . . but that not being the way it was done in Rome (or Gaul) don't you think he would have been glad to have a kind master who fed him well and did not beat him? Who gave him days off and let him marry? Wouldn't you think, in the context of ancient Rome, that such a master would be a good man . . . and the one who beat and tortured his slaves an evil one? The Romans themselves saw it that way, and I suspect so did many of the slaves. They didn't know any different . . . master or slave . . . that was just the way the world was. We know now that that is injust, immoral, and evil. They did not.
Actually Washington did know better and that is one reason why he treated his slavers better than most. You could argue in a sense this made him worse. He knew it was wrong as he was very educated and versed in philosophy and ethics but yet continued. Granted he was much better (as many of the slave owners were in the northern part of the south) as far as treatment and no doubt his slave thanked their luck stars they were not on a southern Georgia cotton plantation. The fact still remains that he bought and sold human beings especially knowing better.

There is also evidence that foundling fathers had sex with their slaves and by definition a slave can't give consent (especially underage ones) thus this was a form of rape.


Saying that a person in the past was a good man, despite the fact they did things we view as evil, does not justify those evil things. They were still evil. But the person was not

You could say that about any villain in history. Even Hitler and Stalin did some good things can we say they weren't evil? At what point does the evil acts justify the label of evil person? I think their are degrees of evil but if you commit evil acts you are evil...at least in part. If you torture dogs, especially your own dogs...you are evil in my book.
I"m not sure he knew better, in the sense that you or I knew better. He had his doubts. He was very intelligent, and understood that there was something bizarre about fighting a war for freedom when people were held as slaves. Yes, an exceptionally good man in his place would have freed his slaves and gone on to fight for abolition. He was a good man in many ways, and exceptional in many ways, but not exceptionally good. As for sex with slaves, it is another long standing tradition of slavery. Again, I can't say it was right . . . only that it was commonly done, and not viewed then as it is now. Nor was sex with people who are underage viewed quite the same way . . . people sometimes married very young. I'm not trying to let Washington or Jefferson completely off the hook here . . . what they did was wrong, and both of them and the others, as very intelligent, educated men who thought about these issues were not oblivious to their own hypocrisy. But I would not call them monsters, or even evil. I would call them human and fallable, just as prone to make decisions in their own interests as anyone else, and particularly vulnerable when their economic self interest was involved. They were good men in many ways, remarkably so. But they were not saints, and they had serious faults . . . one of which was the inability to sacrifice their own comfort and well bring for their own principles. But many were far, far worse. They treated their slaves very badly and never thought that it might be wrong. Who is worse? Well, I know who I'd rather have watch my kids or have over to dinner. However, as I said, by your standard, most of history is comprised of monsters . . . and I don't think that's right.

Hitler and Stalin were evil. Both did some good things. But the evil they did was vast. More importantly, there was no question at the time that it was evil. Murder, mass murder, of innocent people, was clearly wrong. There's no cultural issue here. They both knew it. THey justified it, to be sure, but the evil was evident at the time, and to just about everyone who knew. Neither could claim that it was customary in their society to kill people en masse, to torture them, to destroy families and steal property. To be sure, both may have genuinely thought they were doing the right thing (I doubt this, but) but both had been raised to know better. They'd been taught that murder was wrong. They knew torture was wrong. Anyone around them could have told them so, if not caught up in their spell or scared to death. I think its a totally different thing. Judged by their own time and place, they were monsters, and deemed such. People around them knew they were monsters. The rest of the world certainly did.

This is unlikely slavery in the US at the time of the revolution . . . there were people who had decided it was wrong, there were people with doubts, and there were lots of people who thought it was just fine. It was legal over most of the world. Again, let me emphasize that doesn't make it right. But it doesn't make me condemn otherwise good people who lived in that time and owned slaves. I don't think history was full of monsters . . . i think it was full of men and women. Some where monsters, some where saints . . . the majority were people.
 

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#32
I

This is unlikely slavery in the US at the time of the revolution . . . there were people who had decided it was wrong, there were people with doubts, and there were lots of people who thought it was just fine. It was legal over most of the world. Again, let me emphasize that doesn't make it right. But it doesn't make me condemn otherwise good people who lived in that time and owned slaves. I don't think history was full of monsters . . . i think it was full of men and women. Some where monsters, some where saints . . . the majority were people.
Actually, by the late 1700s the vast majority of Europe had outlawed slavery, Slavery was not practiced in most of Asia (outside of India) Australia didn't have slavery. So Africa, Middle East, USA and some European colonies had slavery at the time. As an educated man Washington had to know it was wrong and continued to practice it. The English, French and others criticized us for it at nearly every social and political meeting. Jefferson took some major criticisms while he was in Paris for his slaving.

I think some things are absolute and can not be sugar coated or ignored. Regardless of time or cultural context, certain things are wrong and IMHO...evil
 

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#33
For me, it wouldn't even be an issue of "do I think he'll hurt my kids", it would be an issue of "is this the kind of person I would want in my child's life influencing them". And the answer would be a resounding NO.
^^^this, 100 percent.

I'm completely dumbfounded that he got a job at a Boys & Girls Club. I don't know why you would pick a newly-released felon and put him in a position of role model to children.
 

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#34
I believe in second chances ....but I do hope that he's under watchful eyes !
 

Lilavati

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#35
Actually, by the late 1700s the vast majority of Europe had outlawed slavery, Slavery was not practiced in most of Asia (outside of India) Australia didn't have slavery. So Africa, Middle East, USA and some European colonies had slavery at the time. As an educated man Washington had to know it was wrong and continued to practice it. The English, French and others criticized us for it at nearly every social and political meeting. Jefferson took some major criticisms while he was in Paris for his slaving.

I think some things are absolute and can not be sugar coated or ignored. Regardless of time or cultural context, certain things are wrong and IMHO...evil
I don't think it should be sugar coated or ignored, and I hope I have no come across that way. Nor did I say the act wasn't evil. It was. and I do not mean that lightly. It was evil.

But I would not judge men of that time and place the way I would judge men of this time and place. You are right that the tide was turning, and that people in Europe critized them for it, and that they knew that it should end. But I won't judge them the way I judge modern slavers in the few countries that still have it. And Australia, at least, didn't have slaves for a reason . . . it had prisioners who were treated worse than slaves because they were worthless to those using them, and occasional press gangs of aborigenes, when they didn't shoot them on sight.

I see 3 ways to view Washington for example (ok, more than that, but 3 major ones)

The first is "Saint Washington" who couldn't tell a lie, and was the father of our country . . . we all learned it in grade school. Its not true, and its a very boring story anyway.

Then there is "Monster Washington" the slave owner, who didn't free the slaves when they made the Constitution (there are reasons why he couldn't, actually, but that's not part of this story). The hypocrite, the dead old white man . . .

Then there is this story, drawing mostly from memory: General/President Washington was a brave, intelligent man. He was also a snob and a hypocrite. He was a planation owner who viewed himself as country gentry, in a place where such people still owned slaves . . . had to to stay in business. He was devoted to his family, but his family was troubled. He was prickly about his honor. He worked his slaves hard, perhaps too hard, but was considered at the time to treat them well and fairly. He was a good guerrilla leader, but not all that good of a general, though he was devoted to his men. He was a very lucky general. He was not one the most philosophical of the Fathers, but he certainly valued freedom, and certainly conisdered the fact that there was something hypocritical about keeping slavery going and fighting for freedom. But most of his slaves weren't his (they were part of his wife's dowry) and it would ruin him to free them. And to try and ban slavery then would have torn the infant nation apart. Given the chance to become king, he turned it down flat, and intervened several times after his presidency to prevent political events that might have killed the country. After his death, he freed his slaves. If he had really wanted to, he could have done so sooner. He should have. But that would have been seen as an eccentric thing to do at best. He could have demanded the slaves be freed when the country escaped Britian. Perhaps he should have . . . that would have been a very good thing to do . . . although very, very politically stupid. So he didn't.

I think the last story (or collection of facts) is fair to the man. He was good in some ways, he was bad in some ways. He was remarkable in many ways. He was human. I think, that in balence, for the time and place that he lived, he was basically a good man, though that is open to debate. He was certainly viewed at the time, even by his enemies, as a good man.

I think to understand history you have to step into it, and judge it on its own terms. To understand the historical figures, you must do the same. That doesn't mean sugar-coating the bad, or ignoring it. Nor does it mean viewing the good as pristine and perfect. But it does mean accepting that what we view as a hopeless evil was not viewed so then; it was still open for debate, and most of that debate focused on the slave trade, not the practice of slavery itself. It does mean understanding that it was a different world, and one that was changing quickly. In less than 100 years, slavery would end, after thousands of years of horror and cruelty. But it was still there then . . . and still practiced in many places, including the colonies of those same European nations that banned it on their own shores. Perhaps it was a time of hypocrisy.

I think what I truly take umbrage to is the idea that this men were monsters. I do not believe they were. We can debate whether they were, on balence, good men or bad men. But I don't think they gloried in the suffering of others, and I think that they usually believed they were doing what they had to do. That thing was, at times, very wrong . . . but, even when they knew that it was an evil practice, they did not view it as we do. For us, slavery is unthinkable. For them it was ordinary. Wrong, perhaps, but ordinary. To understand them, you have to see the world through their eyes . . . to understand the age you must see it through the eyes of those who lived in it. I think there is more to be learned that way.

For that matter, to me at least, to understand slavery, to really understand what it was like, and the depth of evil that it is, you have to look at it through the eyes of those involved. Both the slaves and the masters, at the reasoning, the justification, the lies that people told themselves. To understand (though not justify) why anyone would ever do this.
 

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#36
I think we feel reasonably certain that we will never participate in slavery or dog fighting or murder.

What I'm not sure of, and I don't know if any of us really can be sure, is whether I would have participated in slavery in colonial times. I know I have a few ancestors who did. I'm not sure I'm a better person than they are.

I know it's wrong, and I wouldn't do it today, and it was wrong then, too. I just don't know if I would have been a better person than everyone else around me. I'm not usually the one leading the battle, that's for sure.
 

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#37
I think we feel reasonably certain that we will never participate in slavery or dog fighting or murder.

What I'm not sure of, and I don't know if any of us really can be sure, is whether I would have participated in slavery in colonial times. I know I have a few ancestors who did. I'm not sure I'm a better person than they are.

I know it's wrong, and I wouldn't do it today, and it was wrong then, too. I just don't know if I would have been a better person than everyone else around me. I'm not usually the one leading the battle, that's for sure.

Thanks. That was one of the points I was trying to make.
 
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#38
I WOULDN'T EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a creep he is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is the biggest waste of human flesh that I've ever seen!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is a total monster in my opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still think about those poor poor dogs he had!! One of the saddest things I've ever seen in my life!!!!!!:(
 

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#39
I think we feel reasonably certain that we will never participate in slavery or dog fighting or murder.

What I'm not sure of, and I don't know if any of us really can be sure, is whether I would have participated in slavery in colonial times. I know I have a few ancestors who did. I'm not sure I'm a better person than they are.

I know it's wrong, and I wouldn't do it today, and it was wrong then, too. I just don't know if I would have been a better person than everyone else around me. I'm not usually the one leading the battle, that's for sure.
My thoughts exactly... not many people go completely against society and how they were raised to do "good." And "good" is subjective so what is "good" or tolerable 100 years ago might not be now.

In 100 years progress might turn everyone into petless vegetarian PETAs converts, and all us dog-owning meat eaters will be looked upon as "monsters" in history books. And somewhere there will be sick cults of people who keep dogs and chickens, which every once in a while are busted.

Which may or may not be plausible, but would be along the lines of calling slave-owners "monsters."

I don't like and never use terms like "monster" and "evil" because I don't really think they/it exist(s). I have my personal morals but I don't believe there is this timeless set of them which mankind is supposed to abide by. I certainly don't think the old dogfighters were/are monsters or evil.

Regarding Vick:

I wouldn't let my (hypothetical) kids around someone who was unnecessarily and intentionally cruel to animals, and furthermore who was involved in a low-level, ghetto dogfighting society, not even for MONEY but to to make himself feel like an important gangstaaa for his fighting bada$$ Bad Newzzz pitzzz.
 

Lilavati

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#40
I don't like and never use terms like "monster" and "evil" because I don't really think they/it exist(s). I have my personal morals but I don't believe there is this timeless set of them which mankind is supposed to abide by. I certainly don't think the old dogfighters were/are monsters or evil.

I think there are core rules that we are supposed to live by. The problem is that we aren't born knowing what they are. Societies are not created knowing what they are. Just as a human life is, to some extent, the process of learning how to be a good person, I think human history is the process of learning what these rules are. They aren't really elaborate rules, I don't think. In fact, I think the core of them is the Golden Rule .. . do unto others . . .etc . . . which every culture pretty much as a version of. But the trick is realizing which "others" are like "you." Realizing that a black person is equal to a white one and deserves all the same respect. Realizing that animals feel pain and have emotions, and thus are deserving of that respect. Learning that the "enemy" is made up of people pretty much like you . . . their leaders may (or may not) be evil . . . but the common people are just . . . people. That's what we're learning.

I don't think it was ever right, or morally neutral, to keep people as slaves. It was never right to treat some people as less than human. It was never right to rape a woman and kidnap her because you conquered her village. 12 year olds were always to young to marry and have children. Torture is always wrong. It always was. To a slightly less extent (becuase the victims are not human) dog fighting, cock fighting and bear baiting were always wrong. But there were times when it was normal . . . I blame the times, not the people . . . the question I want to ask is was this person better or worse than the average person of the time. Would it have required heroic courage, or goodness, or knowledge they might not have had to act differently? Would it have required that they be a visionary, or a rebel, or a saint? As for badness . . . was this person viewed by others as evil at the time? Did they act considerably worse than would be considered normal?

I don't believe in true moral relativism. Some things are wrong. They are always wrong and they will always be wrong. But I do believe in a sort of cultural relativism . . . the act made be evil, but the doer may not be.

Take, for a modern example, female gential mutilation. I believe this is wrong. It is cruel, it is dangerous, and it is misogynistic. But I don't believe the old women who perform the act, or the mothers who take their daughters to have it done are evil. They are doing what they have always done, what they have always been told they must do, what they think they must do to find their daughter a husband. I have heard people say that we (or someone else) should go over there and arrest them all for this horrible crime, and punish them as we would someone who did the same here. That is not fair; they are doing what they think they should. On the other hand, I've put up with people whining that it is their culture . . sure. That's why I don't hold it against them. But saying that we have no right to speak out against a cruel mutilation that puts the lives of young women at risk is madness. It is wrong. It always was. The practice must end. But the way to end it is not to punish those who do not know they are doing wrong, at least until there is no doubt that they know better. And I have no patience with those who stand there and flutter their hands about the sanctity of culture . . . I have great respect for the cultures of others . . . I have none for enculturated sadism that tortures some members of that culture.

I do think there are monsters and truly evil people in the world. A few are born that way. Some are made that way by circumstance. Most chose to be that way. Often it is a combination. But I don't think there are entire societies of monsters, and I think that what makes a monster is not exactly what one does, but rather what one does compared to what can be reasonably expected in that time and place.
 

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