Who else feeds RAW?

[DanL]

Usually they will barf up any pieces of bone they can't digest.

As far as balance goes, once you are well into your feeding regiment, you can use a balance over time type of method. Your dog doesn't need every nutrient in every meal. As long as they get what they need in a rotation, it will work. For example, I feed mine fish only about 1 or 2 times a month. I give them liver by taking out a package, feeding them a small amount every day until it's gone, then they don't get it for a week or 2. Because Bruzer only gets a small meal each day, I often rotate him between a bony meal one day and a meaty meal the next, where the big dogs will get some of each every day. Rotate your bone sources and your muscle meats. It's really not as complex as people think once you get going.

As far as how much Jack has to eat- you can't go by what the company says. You have to gauge your dog and weigh in factors like his metabolism, activity level, etc. I'd think feeding premade raw for a big dog like Jack would be horribly expensive. If I had no one to feed but Bruzer, then I might use the convenience of premade, but when you are going thru 5-6lbs of food a day, that would be way too expensive. For a while, when Daisy was around 100lbs and still growing, she was getting 5lbs of food a day to try and keep up with her growth. Now she's full grown and her metabolsm has slowed, but not her activity level, but I can feed her 3 to 3.5lbs a day now and she maintains her weight nicely. Gunnar can get 2-2.5lbs, and Bruzer gets about .5lb.

 

[RawFedDogs]

So, without a response from RawFedDogs who may or may not have known I was referring to him in my previous post I'll continue with my point. If PMR is the ideal diet for all dogs, why is it these dogs are obscenely overweight?

For one thing, you can overfeed a dog even if you feed the proper food. For another, pictures don't always tell an accurate story. My dogs sometimes look overweight in certain pictures at certain angles but not in person. I've never seen Kevin's dogs in person so I can't say for sure. I'm not even sure these are his dogs.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I'm not bashing raw. I'm just pointing out that is it obviously not ideal and not right for every single dog. Mostly, it is obviously not right for those dogs pictured above.

Don't be silly, of course it is. Everydog has the same teeth, jaw structure, stomach, intestines, liver, and pancreas. Why would they possibly need different diets?

No dog has flat teeth. No dog can move his lower jaw from left to right. All dogs have the same expandable stomach. All dogs have a short smooth intestinal tract.

The only logical conclusion is that they are all designed for the same diet just as all cows, regardless of breed, are designed to eat grass.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I feed raw... But according to the powers above i feed the wrong type of raw... I'm also in the camp of not every dog can eat the exact same thing as every other dog out there.

Study the physical make up of a dog and you will see it differently. Canine bodies are designed to eat and digest meat, bones, and organs. They are not designed nor capable of digesting plant material unless processed by humans. If its necessary for humans to process plant material before the dog can handle it, it is only logical and obvious that they don't need it.

Will eating plant material kill them? Probably not. Will it be detrimental to their health? It most likely will. Just look at all the health problems dogs can have that are at least agravated by carbs if not directly caused by carbs.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Since this website is pointed out to be a good information source on raw, one would think that the people writing the site knew what they were talking about. Also, if referenced to in the self proclaimed perfect raw feeder's good information page, they are obviously an example... Why would they be a good example of raw feeders if they can't maintain a healthy weight?

It's a good example and I reference it on my page because of all the pictures of raw meals. It shows a new raw feeder or potential raw feeder what a raw meal looks like and it shows a variety of different protein sources. 57 different meals to be exact. I don't know where on the net you can get a better overall picture of ideas of what to feed a dog.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I don't really care why I shouldn't be feeding Ivan veggies. Because here veggies(for bait)= NO stink vs. comercial bait/cookies= One STINKY DOG.

Then you are feeding them for your own convenience, not because he has any dietary need for them which is fine. They probably won't hurt him. Aren't Dal's prone to some kidney problems? Could carbs agravate this? I don't know ... just asking.

Veggies with dinner= more water consumption(which with his breed you can never have too much of that).

I'm sure you are aware that meat is around 60% to 70% water.

So for us and him it works. Besides that I can get him to chew on a whole carrot to clean his teeth a whole lot easier than I can a rec bone.

In my 7+ years of raw feeding, none of my dogs has ever had a rec bone nor a carrott in their mouths. They have always had pearly white teeth. I'm too afraid of rec bones to use them. I've seen many people report chipped, cracked, or broken teeth from them. I've also seen many people who have fed them for a long time with no problem but I dont know the difference between the two groups so I just avoid them like the plague.

 

[sillysally]

Just out of curiosity, are there any actual studies out there supporting that domestic dogs specifically benefit from a raw diet? i would be interested to read them....

 

[sillysally]

Usually they will barf up any pieces of bone they can't digest.

What about the dog that eats his own vomit in most cases?--lol Jack firmly believes in recycling.....

I do think the only way I would even consider it is if I got one of those hella meat grinders that do bones too. I gave him a turkey neck once that he snarfed down in 2 gulps--I just about had a heart attack....

 

[DanL]

I don't think you need a study to determine what a dog would eat in it's wild state is what a domestic dog should eat. Most dog food studies are funded by dog food companies and will purposely skew their results towards people buying their product as the best thing for their dog.

 

[DanL]

What about the dog that eats his own vomit in most cases?--lol Jack firmly believes in recycling.....

I do think the only way I would even consider it is if I got one of those hella meat grinders that do bones too. I gave him a turkey neck once that he snarfed down in 2 gulps--I just about had a heart attack....

I've often seen one of my dogs barf up an entire meal and then proceed to re eat it. Gross, but that's how it is.

 

[ACooper]

First, I haven't seen anywhere that you addressed those photos from your website.........the ones of supposedly good *examples* of Raw Fed dogs, you know, the ones with bad coats and obesity problems?

Don't be silly, of course it is. Everydog has the same teeth, jaw structure, stomach, intestines, liver, and pancreas. Why would they possibly need different diets?

No dog has flat teeth. No dog can move his lower jaw from left to right. All dogs have the same expandable stomach. All dogs have a short smooth intestinal tract.

The only logical conclusion is that they are all designed for the same diet just as all cows, regardless of breed, are designed to eat grass.

So by THIS logic, all people are designed to eat the same diet as well. We all have the same jaw, stomach, intestines, liver, and pancreas You tell me then why two children living in the exact environment, who came from the same parents, are given the same food opportunities can develop completely different issues.

One child can have allergies while the other doesn't.

One child can have issues with *insert whatever organ you like* while the other doesn't.

One child can have a "sensitive" stomach and VOMIT or have diarrhea and be in pain over ingesting a particular item while the next child loves it and wants seconds.

So no, I don't buy that ALL dogs are capable of eating the exact same diet........they come as individuals just the same as people. If you were to state that MOST dogs, or the MAJORITY of dogs can eat *XYZ* I might be more inclined to listen.

 

[PoodleMommy]

Just out of curiosity, are there any actual studies out there supporting that domestic dogs specifically benefit from a raw diet? i would be interested to read them....

I would be interested in this as well... because dogs have changed a lot as they have been domesticated, new breeds have been created, etc... most of the breeds out there today wouldnt survive at all in the wild... so the idea that they "ate such and such in the wild" always strikes me as an odd statement.

 

[RawFedDogs]

We have considered feeding raw and have fed Jack premade raw--he had to be fed WAY more than the company recommended to keep any kind of weight on him (and I keep him thin anyway, so that is saying something) and it quickly become too expensive.

Pre-mix raw IS VERY expensive. It also has a lot of inappropriate ingredients in it.

My two biggest concerns with raw are:
-my ability to balance it. I am very worried about not getting the nutrients right and causing illness or deficancy

Don't worry too much about balance. Balance is cinda of an arbitrary thing anyway. No one really knows what balance should be. If you feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs then you will be just fine. Balance will take care of itself. I have been feeding raw for 7+ years and have never spent 5 minutes worrying about balance. I have a 9 1/2 year old Great Dane in perfect health as far as I know except for one bad hip the vet attributes to an injury. I also have a 5 year old Dane who is in perfect health. Neither dog shows any sign of illness or diatery deficiency.

-the bones. Jack is a hardcore gulper and has had bowel obstruction surgery to remove a pair of underwear he swallowed whole before and I have no desire to go through that again. yes, most of the time their digestive system breaks it down, but dogs do get obstructions from bones.

Again, in my years of raw feeding, this has never been a problem. The secret here is to feed items so large he can't swallow them without some crunching. Any bone that can get down this throat will be digested once it gets to the stomach. If he miscalculates size, it will come back up to be chewed some more.

I have been on many raw feeding boards, some with as many as 15,000 members. I have read tens of thousands of posts and I have only heard directly from owners 2 times about dogs having a problem with a bone. I have heard stories about spouce's coworker's next door neighbor's brother-in-law's second cousin's next door neighbor's best friend's dog got choked on a bone but only 2 directly from the people directly involved.

There are a few types of bones you don't want to feed ... the weigh bearing bones of large animals is one. Irregular cut bones such as T-bones or pork chop bones shouldn't be fed to some dogs. Other than that, don't worry about feeding bones. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. They know how to do it and are well equipped to do it so let them go at'em.

 

[sillysally]

I don't think you need a study to determine what a dog would eat in it's wild state is what a domestic dog should eat. Most dog food studies are funded by dog food companies and will purposely skew their results towards people buying their product as the best thing for their dog.

If you are feeding domestically raised meat, ESPECIALLY non-grass fed meat you are not feeding what wild dogs would eat. Animals raised on corn and other seeds have meat that has less nutrients than grass fed. Grass fed has tons more Omega-3s, more vitamins, etc. Corn/seed fed raw is going to be less processed than kibble obviously, but I don't think you can compare it to what wild dogs eat because there is going to be less nutrition just based on what the meat producing animals are fed.

Personally, I find studies very helpful. There are foods that we are finding are more beneficial to humans than we thought all the time, as well as foods we thought we fine and now know are quite bad for us.

 

[Gypsydals]

Its not carbs that can cause stones its foods that are high in purates such as organ meats. And yes I am aware that raw meats have lots of water in them. To Ivan a rec bone is any bone. He can take a 4 inch rib bone and instead of eating it, he plays with it.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Just out of curiosity, are there any actual studies out there supporting that domestic dogs specifically benefit from a raw diet? i would be interested to read them....

There is no study specifically what you are asking about but there is a study comparing dogs fed commercial diets vs. dogs fed non-commercial diets. The study indicates that dogs fed non-commercial diets live and average of 30 months longer than dogs fed commercial diets.

Long Life Study Summary
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Actual Study
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapyFullReport.pdf

 

[sillysally]

I would be interested in this as well... because dogs have changed a lot as they have been domesticated, new breeds have been created, etc... most of the breeds out there today wouldnt survive at all in the wild... so the idea that they "ate such and such in the wild" always strikes me as an odd statement.

This is an issue for me too. Domestication has definitely changed dog behavior--changed and refined drives and instincts, changed social behaviors, etc. I can take my lab to the park and he will happily greet any animal and person there--he doesn't even bark when people come onto our property--that is not exactly primitive dog behavior.

Maybe domestication has not changed their nutritional needs, but maybe it has.

 

[RawFedDogs]

First, I haven't seen anywhere that you addressed those photos from your website.........the ones of supposedly good *examples* of Raw Fed dogs, you know, the ones with bad coats and obesity problems?

First, its not MY web page where those pictures are. There is a link on my web page to this page and yes I did answer the posts about 20 or 30 minutes ago. I am still catching up on all the posts made last night after I left for the NYE party.

So no, I don't buy that ALL dogs are capable of eating the exact same diet........they come as individuals just the same as people. If you were to state that MOST dogs, or the MAJORITY of dogs can eat *XYZ* I might be more inclined to listen.

It just depends on how anxious you are to get picky and to criticize. ALL dogs are designed to eat meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals and nothing else. ALL humans are designed to eat meat, organs, fruit, veggies, nuts, berries, etc. It is possible for any one indiviual to have problems with a certain meat source or type of veggie or fruit or berry but even if they have these problems they still eat meat, bones, and organs or they eat meat, organs, fruits, veggies, etc,. I don't see that is such a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[ACooper]

There is no study specifically what you are asking about but there is a study comparing dogs fed commercial diets vs. dogs fed non-commercial diets. The study indicates that dogs fed non-commercial diets live and average of 30 months longer than dogs fed commercial diets.

Long Life Study Summary
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Actual Study
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapyFullReport.pdf

In your long life study (first link) I first want to address their "findings" on sterilization. A bit off topic, but to me, it speaks to the validity (IMO) of their study.

Quote:

Sterilization raises the average middle age of the dead in the dog species. (12 years and 3 months for sterilized animals, 10 years and 6 months for non-sterilized) This will permit a reduction in the importance of certain illnesses such as cancer, or inflammation of the genital organs.

I find that "study" very odd, and I hope I can find one particular study (pretty extensive) that shows a complete opposite finding. While most of us here KNOW neutering does indeed protect against certain issues, we also KNOW it leaves them vulnerable to many other issues........different cancers, lack of certain hormones they need, etc etc.

Now, back on topic, LOL

Another quote from the same "study"

Our study shows that for food, the animal fed with home made food (based on similar food as the family) reach an average age of 13.1 years, as the animals fed with the canned industrial food, reach an average age of 10.4 years. The animals fed with the mixed food (home mad plus canned food) reach an average age of 11.4 years.

Not really seeing how that proves PMR is where it's at.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I would be interested in this as well... because dogs have changed a lot as they have been domesticated, new breeds have been created, etc... most of the breeds out there today wouldnt survive at all in the wild... so the idea that they "ate such and such in the wild" always strikes me as an odd statement.

I don't think any of our domestic dogs could survive in the wild. They are neither strong enough or fast enough. My Great Danes chase deer regularly but never catch them. If they caught one, I don't think they'd know what to do next. Probably play with it.

However, they still have the same dentation, jaw structure, stomach, intestinal tract, liver and pancreas and other organs as a wild wolf who has lived wild forever without human interaction. So there has been no change nor evolution to make a dog need a diet different from his wild cousins. They have changed only in size and appearance. Somewhere in this thread I linked to a fox study that explains how these appearance changes could have taken place.