What is the best method of....

[dr2little]

Interesting! So if the dog jumps like crazy ranting and raving you turn your back and wait for it to sit? What do you do when the dog bits on your sleeve or jumps on a kid? Again only asking?

All interaction would immediately end in this situation. Then I would enter and exit again and again until the dog sits and greets politely.

One thing that also needs to be undersood is that the very nature of effective physical punishment requires that the first time the punishment is delivered it has to be severe enough to stop the behavior immediately and harsh enough in order to be remembered (stop the behavior from happening in the future). That's one reason that physical punishment is so ineffective. Usually, people deliver a correction, lets say a leash correction, and then have to keep increasing the intensity as the dog continually habituates to that sensation. It's a pretty horrible proposition. Not something that most dog owners would want to engage in.

Of course it takes consistency to use any method and positive with negative markers is no execption....it also requires everyone's participation in the training process.

 

[Zoom]

Interesting! So if the dog jumps like crazy ranting and raving you turn your back and wait for it to sit? What do you do when the dog bits on your sleeve or jumps on a kid? Again only asking?

Exactly. I'm working with a fairly insane Golden Retriever right now that has absolutly no concept of proper greeting habits. Her idea of 'hello" is to launch herself full force at your face and continue jumping and nipping until she gets a response. I have already taught her what "sit" means and when I see her coming, I first tell her to "sit" before she reaches me and has an opportunity to jump. If she doesn't listen, I turn my back, fold my arms and wait her out. She loves attention and treats more than she loves jumping, so in relatively short order she will sit and I can turn and reward her. She gets my back again if she breaks her sit and jumps up. I will give a verbal marker, both negative "ah-ah" and positive "good!" to back up what my body language is telling her.

Physical correction has no place with this dog and would only serve to "amp" her up, as any confusion seems to trip something in her head and she goes ballistic. I've tried the knee in the chest, mainly in self-defense, and it did absolutely nothing to correct the behavior. She simply dodged the knee and resumed jumping.

So if the dog bites my sleeve, which she does often (I haven't been working with her that long) she gets a negative verbal marker and I turn my back until she sits. This is not a dog that needs to be around any sort of children off-leash. Her former owners kept her locked in a seperate room because of her behaviors around their children. Which in turn has contributed to many of the neurosis I'm having to deal with.

You'd be surprised at how much you can accomplish simply with the removal of all attention. I use this method to get dogs to quit demanding attention, jumping, barking...I take away their motivation for doing those things. They want attention, they will "ask" for it polietly by sitting.

 

[oose]

Exactly. I'm working with a fairly insane Golden Retriever right now that has absolutly no concept of proper greeting habits. Her idea of 'hello" is to launch herself full force at your face and continue jumping and nipping until she gets a response. I have already taught her what "sit" means and when I see her coming, I first tell her to "sit" before she reaches me and has an opportunity to jump. If she doesn't listen, I turn my back, fold my arms and wait her out. She loves attention and treats more than she loves jumping, so in relatively short order she will sit and I can turn and reward her. She gets my back again if she breaks her sit and jumps up. I will give a verbal marker, both negative "ah-ah" and positive "good!" to back up what my body language is telling her.

Physical correction has no place with this dog and would only serve to "amp" her up, as any confusion seems to trip something in her head and she goes ballistic. I've tried the knee in the chest, mainly in self-defense, and it did absolutely nothing to correct the behavior. She simply dodged the knee and resumed jumping.

So if the dog bites my sleeve, which she does often (I haven't been working with her that long) she gets a negative verbal marker and I turn my back until she sits. This is not a dog that needs to be around any sort of children off-leash. Her former owners kept her locked in a seperate room because of her behaviors around their children. Which in turn has contributed to many of the neurosis I'm having to deal with.

You'd be surprised at how much you can accomplish simply with the removal of all attention. I use this method to get dogs to quit demanding attention, jumping, barking...I take away their motivation for doing those things. They want attention, they will "ask" for it polietly by sitting.

Very kewl and thank you! That does make some sense. I do have one question for you....is your dogs name Zoom? The only reason I ask is because my last dogs name was zoom and I had never heard it before or again.

 

[Zoom]

No, my dog's name is Sawyer. He was in the middle of doing some zoomies when I was registering on here though, and I wanted a "Z" name anyway.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

Very kewl and thank you! That does make some sense. I do have one question for you....is your dogs name Zoom? The only reason I ask is because my last dogs name was zoom and I had never heard it before or again.

My trainer has a GSD puppy named Zoom. His original name was Zeke but he acts just like a Mali (always on the go) so Zoom was a better fit, lol.

 

[Doberluv]

I totally agree with Dr2little. Yup...no reward marker helps speed things along. It's like, "woops, that's not it. Try this." It is not physical aversives.

If you want to learn the ins and outs of training, such as how to prevent a dog from breaking a stay and how to come when called the first time, I recommend you read some good training books. My favorite is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. There are other good ones too, but I'd start with that.

 

[oose]

I totally agree with Dr2little. Yup...no reward marker helps speed things along. It's like, "woops, that's not it. Try this." It is not physical aversives.

If you want to learn the ins and outs of training, such as how to prevent a dog from breaking a stay and how to come when called the first time, I recommend you read some good training books. My favorite is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. There are other good ones too, but I'd start with that.

Thank you just ordered the book on amazon.

 

[dr2little]

Thank you just ordered the book on amazon.

Did you make sure to get the second edition?

 

[happydog]

I feel positive & disipline training work extremely well when training your dog. Persistance & repetition is the key to success to understanding your dog & visa versa.

 

[dr2little]

I feel positive & disipline training work extremely well when training your dog. Persistance & repetition is the key to success to understanding your dog & visa versa.

And by disipline training you mean......

 

[bubbatd]

Dr2 ... I hoping to take Ollie to obedience soon and I'm scared to death ! He's good around me and other dogs , but I really don't know how he will handle it ! He's strong willed when forced to do anything he doesn't understand . Being your size at 73 .... Hmmmmm !!!! guess I'll go and see how he and the trainer treats both of us . I don't want anything forced on him . He responds so well with me ......but I know he needs additional training . Treats will help !! I'm chicken !!

 

[Rubylove]

I clicker train and heartily agree with Dr2 and others here who have posted. There is no need to ever physically intimidate or `correct' your dog, positive reinforcement is highly effective, makes learning fun and easy, your dog is interested, you bond, you both feel great - altogether entirely rewarding and satisfying for both the dog and you.

Unfortunately like many things, people want their dogs to learn to `behave' with the minimum amount of effort. So jerking a collar or yelling or smacking is just quicker and easier than actually taking the time to train dogs in a meaningful, effective and long-lasting way through understanding and appropriate responses to behaviours. Unfortunately, more haste makes less speed and `quick-fix' efforts usually result in loooong-fix cures.

Take the time to do it properly the first time and you will spend considerably less time training your dog and banging your head in frustration, you'll end up with a beautifully behaved, well adjusted and confident dog, and you'll feel like a champion!!

 

[dr2little]

Grammy - Can you go and visit the class to just observe first?
You are pretty tiny and I know how hard a big excited dog can be to control. If you're concerned about control while in class, the front clip harnesses really do work very well. I can send you a link if you think it may help.
I know that in my adult classes, some pretty teeny people come in with large exuberant adult dogs so I keep a few loaners on hand for them. It really does make a world of difference for them. It can be exhausting trying to keep a very social friendly dog under control for the first few classes. Once the dogs become more comfortable and the training kicks in, the owners are encouraged to go back to their regular buckle collar.

Rubylove - :hail: So true..

 

[silverpawz]

I use a lot of positive reinforcement in my training, and I also use some fair physical corrections if needed. This way works for me and I like the results I get from it.

There are many ways to train a dog, and just because someone praises one way doesn't make it the ONLY way. All dog trainers think they're right, and very few will admit they aren't. I think I'm right, and I'm sure those who attempt to practice purely positive training think they're right as well.

Bottom line, let your dog tell you what works and go from there. The proof that a method is the 'right way' is a happy, well adjusted and obedient dog.
If you have that, then keep right on doing what you're doing and ignore those who may disagree. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Asking a room full of a dog trainers what method is 'right' is like asking room full of people if the war is 'right'. You'll get a ton of different answers and everyone won't agree.

 

[Rubylove]

That's very true, and it always depends on the dog, always. However, I am pretty dogmatic over one aspect of training (and it doesn't matter what your preference is, the clicker or not) and that is that physical correction is NEVER necessary, if you're good at what you do and you have a true understanding of the nature of the beast.

Again, like you said Ann, everyone thinks they are right and I am no different in that regard. I am open to other methods of training but I will never agree with or accept that physical force/correction/punishment or however it's euphemised is necessary. It might have some affect but I don't think it needs to be part of any training regimen. But that's just me

Oh, and yeah, I'm on a couple of political forums and I reckon the trainers here could give some of those people a run for their money! LOL!

 

[silverpawz]

and that is that physical correction is NEVER necessary, if you're good at what you do and you have a true understanding of the nature of the beast.

Being good at applying positive methods doesn't mean that negatives are never needed. I think I'm quite good at using positves, they get me good results. But so do negatives in the right situation. As you said, it all depends on how that dog reacts to certain methods.

Again, like you said Ann, everyone thinks they are right and I am no different in that regard. I am open to other methods of training but I will never agree with or accept that physical force/correction/punishment or however it's euphemised is necessary.

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not trying to pull you over to the dark side. I'll never agree wth you either, but that doesn't mean we can't have a good discussion.

 

[whatszmatter]

with or with out correction?

any physical correction would come much later, under the proofing stage, and that too would be dictated by the dog.

The problem I have with Dunbar's example given by the Dr is that it takes dogs in the learning phase, and yes some may shut down, in which case, they shouldn't have been doing that in the first place, the dog wasn't at a level when they should have been used, the dog was too soft to have physical corrections and probably didn't need them, so all in all I'd say a pretty poor example.

I"ve got one that I could write out a hundred just like, just changing the handlers name and dogs name, but one in particular comes to mind. 3 year old bitch, handler's first dog, and it was a very strong dog, all the way around. She had a lot of difficulty in the dog doing what it wanted, when it wanted. Regardless of what some of you might say, this dog was trained, an experienced handler took the leash, adminsitered a perfectly timed and appropriate level correction for a command the dog did know and this dog performed flawlessly for a 15 minute OB routine and then bitework

after distractions and into proofing, i've seen many dogs that respond to verbals only, and i've seen many dogs that after a collar correction, their compliance and attention would go up 100%, no shutting down, no loss of enthusiasm or any of the other things that people say will happen if you use them. Its a dog by dog and level of training decision.

Everything in life takes balance, why is dog training different?

 

[whatszmatter]

Take the time to do it properly the first time and you will spend considerably less time training your dog and banging your head in frustration, you'll end up with a beautifully behaved, well adjusted and confident dog, and you'll feel like a champion!!

You know the same could be said for aversive as well. Take the time, use them properly the first time and you'll spend considerably less time training your dog and banging your head in frustration. You'll end up with a beautifully behaved, well adjusted and confident dog, and you'll feel like a champion.

What's the difference? I've seen more than a few people that wanted to do "positive only" doing it incorrectly and end up giving up the dog, beating themselves up over not being able to train, and overall had a really really bad picture of dog and handler relationship. Just as I've seen people that didn't know when, how, or what level physical or VERBAL correction to a dog and ended up with still an ugly picture.

So really what's the difference?

 

[dr2little]

You know the same could be said for aversive as well. Take the time, use them properly the first time and you'll spend considerably less time training your dog and banging your head in frustration. You'll end up with a beautifully behaved, well adjusted and confident dog, and you'll feel like a champion.

What's the difference? I've seen more than a few people that wanted to do "positive only" doing it incorrectly and end up giving up the dog, beating themselves up over not being able to train, and overall had a really really bad picture of dog and handler relationship. Just as I've seen people that didn't know when, how, or what level physical or VERBAL correction to a dog and ended up with still an ugly picture.

So really what's the difference?

The difference is that it isn't necessary to use physical correction if training is done right in the first place. I keep hearing arguments FOR physically correcting and it just baffles me. It's not an either or. It's learning how to train a behavior properly without physical aversives. If the need arises for physical aversives, its the TRAINERS short comings, NOT the dogs.

Take an HONEST look at risk assessment between the two methods. Yes, it takes time and practice to learn how to properly train with any method, positive with verbal marker included. I have to ask you though, how many trainers are faced with retalliation/fear bites due to this method and how many are put at risk using physical correction....not even a comparison.
As far as timing goes, the damage caused by poor timing of a physical correction compared to that of a poorly time click and treat, again...no comparison.

Who would choose to use physical punishment over no physical correction if it's possible (and I and MANY other trainers/behaviorists do it successfully every day) to train with only verbal negative markers?

This isn't just an 'I'm right/your wrong' philosophy or who's method is better. It's about a level of understanding and skill which takes physical correction out of the equation. Saying that one uses physical correction because it works rather than learning how to train without the use of pain.....I just don't understand that arguement.

I know that for some of you my views seem arrogant, but before you jump to judgement..think about it. Why do I feel no need to lay my hands on a dog or use aversive tools. I've done things the other way. I used to use mild aversives, I don't anymore because I've learned how to train much more effectivly and with more predictable results without them.

I really think that suggesting to anyone that it's OK to train with physical correction when you know that the alternative is done everyday is very irresponsible.
Oh, and some people on this forum are familiar with my work, have seen it first hand, and know the kinds of high risk, difficult cases that I work with on a daily basis, so I'm not blowing smoke saying that I don't physically correct.

 

[Rubylove]

That's EXACTLY my view. Why, why would you continue to use aversive methods when it has been proven over and over that it's just not necessary? How is aversive ever superior to positive? Why would you ever choose to smack a child if they can learn just as well with no potential negative outcome from purely positive methods? I cannot see that once you know this works and you know it to be true that the use of aversive training could ever be a part of your training repertoire again.

There is no correlation and unfortunately I have to believe it's because purely positive takes a little longer to learn, a little longer to master, requires more understanding of the subject. Not everyone wants to put in the time to do this; training is a multi-facted occupation and there are always variables and a quantity of the unknown. Once you have your way you don't want to change it - it takes many years of experience and work to get to the levels that good trainers are at.

I'm not saying that all trainers who use aversives are lazy and don't want to learn and expand, although the implication is there; we are all loyal to the methods that work for us. But I am baffled when there is a clearly proven and working alternative to aversive methods and people aren't jumping to embrace it. I just don't get it. A little hardship may be essential for character building in humans but we don't need this for our dogs. They will learn whatever we teach them - whatever we teach them, if we take the time to teach it well, and kindly, and meaningfully. If that option is available to us, why on earth would we not use it to it's fullest potential.