Training Collars.
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I just got back to this thread, and I need to clarify some things.
If people will go back and READ my posts in their entirety (and not just take offense to single sentences without putting them in the context of the entire post) they may begin to understand what I meant.
First of all, as I've said over and over (funny how those who want to argue always miss this) - I am not against corrections as a whole. But I DO find that corrective collars are vastly over-used and used because people are LAZY in their training. Not that many dogs need something like that - it's a flaw in the training method that makes people think they need to go to a prong or choke collar. Because they have not managed to train their dogs using the very valid methods of positive reinforcement, they decide to go to a corrective collar. This is a PEOPLE problem, not a DOG problem.
Very rarely is there a dog that actually requires this. But it's an easy way to deal with the pulling and people use it because of that. And that's why I call it the "lazy man's method". I can actually understand why people do this .. and like I've said, if you DO end up feeling the necessity, then your goal should be to use it sparingly in order to get behaviors that you can reinforce, with the thought that you will teach your dog the proper behaviors so he can be walked on any type of collar. But that's not what most people do. They put a prong collar on, the dog doesn't pull because it hurts when he does, and they are stuck using a prong collar the rest of the dog's life. Where's the training in that?
My comment: "I'm not sure about most, but many do use the prong. It's the lazy man's way of dealing with problems " was specific to dobiegurl's post saying that most working dog owners use prong collars to train. And I stand by what I said. People with big kennels of dogs want fast results, and they use aversive, forceful methods to train quickly. The relationship with the dog is not the most important thing. They want dogs that behave a certain way and provide them with titles and ribbons and all that goes along with that. And if the prong collars don't give them the "fast-food" results they want, they super-size to shock training.
I think most of us who love our dogs would be appalled at what goes on behind the scenes with many of those "big-name" trainers.
The reality of things is that there are a lot of trainers who are quite successful with their dogs and they don't have to use much in the way of aversives to get that. If it can be done without force, why are people using force? They use force because it's easier than having to be responsible as a trainer and actually observe and work through problems.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
If people will go back and READ my posts in their entirety (and not just take offense to single sentences without putting them in the context of the entire post) they may begin to understand what I meant.
First of all, as I've said over and over (funny how those who want to argue always miss this) - I am not against corrections as a whole. But I DO find that corrective collars are vastly over-used and used because people are LAZY in their training. Not that many dogs need something like that - it's a flaw in the training method that makes people think they need to go to a prong or choke collar. Because they have not managed to train their dogs using the very valid methods of positive reinforcement, they decide to go to a corrective collar. This is a PEOPLE problem, not a DOG problem.
Very rarely is there a dog that actually requires this. But it's an easy way to deal with the pulling and people use it because of that. And that's why I call it the "lazy man's method". I can actually understand why people do this .. and like I've said, if you DO end up feeling the necessity, then your goal should be to use it sparingly in order to get behaviors that you can reinforce, with the thought that you will teach your dog the proper behaviors so he can be walked on any type of collar. But that's not what most people do. They put a prong collar on, the dog doesn't pull because it hurts when he does, and they are stuck using a prong collar the rest of the dog's life. Where's the training in that?
My comment: "I'm not sure about most, but many do use the prong. It's the lazy man's way of dealing with problems " was specific to dobiegurl's post saying that most working dog owners use prong collars to train. And I stand by what I said. People with big kennels of dogs want fast results, and they use aversive, forceful methods to train quickly. The relationship with the dog is not the most important thing. They want dogs that behave a certain way and provide them with titles and ribbons and all that goes along with that. And if the prong collars don't give them the "fast-food" results they want, they super-size to shock training.
I think most of us who love our dogs would be appalled at what goes on behind the scenes with many of those "big-name" trainers.
The reality of things is that there are a lot of trainers who are quite successful with their dogs and they don't have to use much in the way of aversives to get that. If it can be done without force, why are people using force? They use force because it's easier than having to be responsible as a trainer and actually observe and work through problems.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Hi Roxy's CD:
The most difficult part of the "non-force" style training is for us humans to really observe our dog's behaviors and reinforce at the right time. We ALL have that problem and it takes awhile for it to click in.
From what I've read on your problem (and correct me if I get this wrong) you have a dog that gets to the end of the leash, you tug to correct it and then you praise after that and he goes right back to pulling. I think your timing is off on your praise. What you need to do is praise when he voluntarily doesn't pull. By this I mean that you go out with him on leash, if he gets to the end you simply stop and don't move .. let him get bored with standing there and he will at some point turn back towards you and loosen the leash (with determined dogs it sometimes takes awhile .. but heck, we've got a lifetime with our dogs!) and when he gets back to you then smile at him, take a step forward and immediately start praising him WHILE the leash is still loose. Have treats in your pocket and pop one out for him, smiling and showing him how happy you are that the leash is loose.
If he runs out to the end, just stop and "be a tree" again. Dogs get tired of that because they can only do so much on a leash and if you're not moving forward they run out of things to do. When he loosens the leash, that's good - but I would wait until he's back near you and you can start forward again to praise and reward. If you praise too early then some dogs think the exercise is "pull - stop - go back - get treat - repeat" .. *L*
It's best to start this training in an area with low distraction so that you set your dog up to succeed. If you take your dog to a dog park and expect this with no training ahead of time, you'll fail and it won't be the dog's fault. He has to learn what you want first and then you can gradually add in distractions.
If you have a dog that is so strong that he can pull you over, then yes - I think a prong collar might be an option you'd need. I really don't like the choking style collars. The volhard collar you described has the option to click to the non-choking ring so it can be used as a flat collar, which would be okay.
It takes consistent reinforcement of the behaviors you like to get a consistent dog. And the way I look at it is this: I love spending time with my dogs. I love watching them and seeing what they do - those silly things that make me laugh, those bewildering things that are hard to understand, and even those behaviors that make me go "woah, I don't like that much!". This is all part of why I have dogs. So for me to take the time to observe my dogs and reinforce those behaviors I like is an enjoyable time for me. Even now, after many years of doing this, I still see behaviors that surprise me. Sometimes I look at my dogs and think "wow, why did you do THAT??" ... *LOL* .. it's all a learning experience and it should be fun for both you and your dog.
Your pitt mix sounds like he has some definite submissive behaviors. If you use this method where you focus on the things he does right and you don't worry about the things you don't like, then you will probably see him blossom in confidence. It's easy for them to be confident when they no longer feel the need to be afraid or confused.
The more you observe your dogs and see what you like about them, the better your relationship will become.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
The most difficult part of the "non-force" style training is for us humans to really observe our dog's behaviors and reinforce at the right time. We ALL have that problem and it takes awhile for it to click in.
From what I've read on your problem (and correct me if I get this wrong) you have a dog that gets to the end of the leash, you tug to correct it and then you praise after that and he goes right back to pulling. I think your timing is off on your praise. What you need to do is praise when he voluntarily doesn't pull. By this I mean that you go out with him on leash, if he gets to the end you simply stop and don't move .. let him get bored with standing there and he will at some point turn back towards you and loosen the leash (with determined dogs it sometimes takes awhile .. but heck, we've got a lifetime with our dogs!) and when he gets back to you then smile at him, take a step forward and immediately start praising him WHILE the leash is still loose. Have treats in your pocket and pop one out for him, smiling and showing him how happy you are that the leash is loose.
If he runs out to the end, just stop and "be a tree" again. Dogs get tired of that because they can only do so much on a leash and if you're not moving forward they run out of things to do. When he loosens the leash, that's good - but I would wait until he's back near you and you can start forward again to praise and reward. If you praise too early then some dogs think the exercise is "pull - stop - go back - get treat - repeat" .. *L*
It's best to start this training in an area with low distraction so that you set your dog up to succeed. If you take your dog to a dog park and expect this with no training ahead of time, you'll fail and it won't be the dog's fault. He has to learn what you want first and then you can gradually add in distractions.
If you have a dog that is so strong that he can pull you over, then yes - I think a prong collar might be an option you'd need. I really don't like the choking style collars. The volhard collar you described has the option to click to the non-choking ring so it can be used as a flat collar, which would be okay.
It takes consistent reinforcement of the behaviors you like to get a consistent dog. And the way I look at it is this: I love spending time with my dogs. I love watching them and seeing what they do - those silly things that make me laugh, those bewildering things that are hard to understand, and even those behaviors that make me go "woah, I don't like that much!". This is all part of why I have dogs. So for me to take the time to observe my dogs and reinforce those behaviors I like is an enjoyable time for me. Even now, after many years of doing this, I still see behaviors that surprise me. Sometimes I look at my dogs and think "wow, why did you do THAT??" ... *LOL* .. it's all a learning experience and it should be fun for both you and your dog.
Your pitt mix sounds like he has some definite submissive behaviors. If you use this method where you focus on the things he does right and you don't worry about the things you don't like, then you will probably see him blossom in confidence. It's easy for them to be confident when they no longer feel the need to be afraid or confused.
The more you observe your dogs and see what you like about them, the better your relationship will become.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Electronic Dog Collar
I don't think electronic collars are cruel, infact when used propely the have a very good effect. If you are not settle with using electric collarrs, try using purchasing a collar that transmitts warning tones. For big dogs like you have then maybe electronic is better. Read a post I did in my blog about collars.
http://dog-training-and-care-tips.blogspot.com/2006/05/using-electronic-dog-collar.html I hope this helps you.
Marc
I don't think electronic collars are cruel, infact when used propely the have a very good effect. If you are not settle with using electric collarrs, try using purchasing a collar that transmitts warning tones. For big dogs like you have then maybe electronic is better. Read a post I did in my blog about collars.
http://dog-training-and-care-tips.blogspot.com/2006/05/using-electronic-dog-collar.html I hope this helps you.
Marc
D
Prongs are not meant to train your dog but to help you control your dog WHILE training. I tell him to heel and he does but if he sees a rabbit of a squirrell (sp?) he steps in front of me and acts like he doesn't hear me, so that is when I use a SLIGHT pop of the leash and then tell him to heel once I have regained his attention, then he gets a "good boy" and we proceed with our heeling.
D
I wouldn't use a prong on your dog if thats the case. It seems that you have a "soft" dog and those dogs don't do well with prongs or any corrective collar. USUALLY dogs who cower when you correct him/her are dogs who want to please their owners. It is your job to show your dog what you want. Prongs and choke chains should be used for dogs who are "hard" and self motivated. My dog is very independent and could care less what I did to him, I could scream, yell, throw hissyfits and he wouldn't give a d*mn. I needed something to grab his attention.
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Okay - I'm trying to understand what you're doing here.
My question is: How is this changing his behavior? What are you doing to teach him to keep focus on you even if there's a rabbit or squirrel?
What it sounds like you're doing is waiting until he loses focus, and then using a correction followed by a second command and then praise. This isn't going to teach him not to lose focus in the first place. By waiting until he's already distracted, you've missed the primary reinforcement time.
What I do is remain extremely attentive to my dog (after all, if I expect full attention from my dog then it's my responsibility to give my dog attention too). I note all those times when she's heeling nicely and I praise and reinforce DURING the times she's actively heeling. If she loses focus, then I stop moving forward and I stop praising.
I don't worry much about what my dog is distracted by unless it's something dangerous (like another dog coming at us, or a bear .. *L*). I let her be distracted without doing much, because I want her to realize that being focused on this other thing gets her nothing. We don't move, I don't talk to her, she gets no treats. Sometimes I'll even start giving the treats to one of the other dogs. And when she chooses to bring her attention back to me, even if it's a bit sporadic, we go on with our trainnig and then I started reinforcing again for the behaviors I like.
I was working my young chow on the back deck a week or so ago while a moose grazed 30' away outside the fence. She had been down in the yard barking her fool head off just minutes before. So I started working with Trick, praising and giving treats, and Khana ran up on the deck. She was very excited about the moose. I took the opportunity to work a bit of off-leash heeling. She would heel very nice for a few feet and then the moose would move and she'd be off again. So I praised while she heeled, and when she'd run off I'd call Trick into heel and praise and treat her instead. Before long, Khana decided the moose was not nearly as exciting as I was and she wanted the treats instead of Trick getting them. So I was able to do heeling with turns, halts, backing up, stepping sideways, etc. ALL off-leash with the moose still out there.
This is what motivational training does. It gives the dog reasons to choose to work with you instead of you having to force the dog into compliance. This is VERY effective! As I've said before, one of the numerous problems with a corrective collar is that people become dependent on it. It's a crutch and it actually holds them back from working on the proper behaviors at times. By not using a corrective collar most people learn to be more motivational and in the long run it results in an enthusiastic working dog.
I'll just keep explaining what I'm doing and why I'm doing it - and hopefully people will see the benefit in trying some of these methods.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
My question is: How is this changing his behavior? What are you doing to teach him to keep focus on you even if there's a rabbit or squirrel?
What it sounds like you're doing is waiting until he loses focus, and then using a correction followed by a second command and then praise. This isn't going to teach him not to lose focus in the first place. By waiting until he's already distracted, you've missed the primary reinforcement time.
What I do is remain extremely attentive to my dog (after all, if I expect full attention from my dog then it's my responsibility to give my dog attention too). I note all those times when she's heeling nicely and I praise and reinforce DURING the times she's actively heeling. If she loses focus, then I stop moving forward and I stop praising.
I don't worry much about what my dog is distracted by unless it's something dangerous (like another dog coming at us, or a bear .. *L*). I let her be distracted without doing much, because I want her to realize that being focused on this other thing gets her nothing. We don't move, I don't talk to her, she gets no treats. Sometimes I'll even start giving the treats to one of the other dogs. And when she chooses to bring her attention back to me, even if it's a bit sporadic, we go on with our trainnig and then I started reinforcing again for the behaviors I like.
I was working my young chow on the back deck a week or so ago while a moose grazed 30' away outside the fence. She had been down in the yard barking her fool head off just minutes before. So I started working with Trick, praising and giving treats, and Khana ran up on the deck. She was very excited about the moose. I took the opportunity to work a bit of off-leash heeling. She would heel very nice for a few feet and then the moose would move and she'd be off again. So I praised while she heeled, and when she'd run off I'd call Trick into heel and praise and treat her instead. Before long, Khana decided the moose was not nearly as exciting as I was and she wanted the treats instead of Trick getting them. So I was able to do heeling with turns, halts, backing up, stepping sideways, etc. ALL off-leash with the moose still out there.
This is what motivational training does. It gives the dog reasons to choose to work with you instead of you having to force the dog into compliance. This is VERY effective! As I've said before, one of the numerous problems with a corrective collar is that people become dependent on it. It's a crutch and it actually holds them back from working on the proper behaviors at times. By not using a corrective collar most people learn to be more motivational and in the long run it results in an enthusiastic working dog.
I'll just keep explaining what I'm doing and why I'm doing it - and hopefully people will see the benefit in trying some of these methods.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I totally understand that obviously the correction with immediate praise isn't working. LOL, he walks fine when we're coming BACK from the walk, but if he doesn't know where were going or on the way to the park he's horrible.
I'll try to praise when he voluntarily heels properly, we'll see how it goes!!!!
Thank you for all of your advice.!! I really do appreciate it. I'm just finding it so hard because my two dogs are SOOO different, what works for Roxy just isn't working for Hades, as some of you mentioned he is VERY submissive or "soft".
Me, personally, I'm kind of impatient and a die hard to get things done right away which is just great with Roxy, she's more on my level, I guess I've just got to learn to soften up with my little boo-boo...
I'll try to praise when he voluntarily heels properly, we'll see how it goes!!!!
Thank you for all of your advice.!! I really do appreciate it. I'm just finding it so hard because my two dogs are SOOO different, what works for Roxy just isn't working for Hades, as some of you mentioned he is VERY submissive or "soft".
Me, personally, I'm kind of impatient and a die hard to get things done right away which is just great with Roxy, she's more on my level, I guess I've just got to learn to soften up with my little boo-boo...
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Roxy's CD:
It's always interesting as you go from dog to dog to realize the differences and how to adapt to fit each dog. With my five I have currently, there are definite differences and what I have to use for one may or may not work for another. One came to me extremely frightened, with separation anxiety - not a dog I would have chosen had I known but she has been a wonderful learning experience too, and has made me into a better trainer.
In all honesty, I prefer a hard dog with a lot of drive over a submissive dog with little confidence. I have to laugh a bit when people talk about how difficult it is to train a "working dog" with a lot of drive. To me, those are the easier dogs because you just have to bring in the control and channel that drive into the right places. A nervous or submissive dog is harder because you're always having to build the dog up and the littlest of things can destroy the confidence. For a dog that stays home and never goes much of anywhere that's fine. But for what I do (competition, demonstrations, seminars, whatever) I want a dog with confidence that won't wilt if I say something a tad bit too loud.
I think the best advice I can give to anyone is to take the time to really observe your dog .. be patient and try to work through the problems before thinking you have to "fix" things with some sort of correction. The dogs will certainly appreciate it!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
It's always interesting as you go from dog to dog to realize the differences and how to adapt to fit each dog. With my five I have currently, there are definite differences and what I have to use for one may or may not work for another. One came to me extremely frightened, with separation anxiety - not a dog I would have chosen had I known but she has been a wonderful learning experience too, and has made me into a better trainer.
In all honesty, I prefer a hard dog with a lot of drive over a submissive dog with little confidence. I have to laugh a bit when people talk about how difficult it is to train a "working dog" with a lot of drive. To me, those are the easier dogs because you just have to bring in the control and channel that drive into the right places. A nervous or submissive dog is harder because you're always having to build the dog up and the littlest of things can destroy the confidence. For a dog that stays home and never goes much of anywhere that's fine. But for what I do (competition, demonstrations, seminars, whatever) I want a dog with confidence that won't wilt if I say something a tad bit too loud.
I think the best advice I can give to anyone is to take the time to really observe your dog .. be patient and try to work through the problems before thinking you have to "fix" things with some sort of correction. The dogs will certainly appreciate it!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I have one called a gentle leader I use on my great dane. It slides over the muzzle and rides high on her neck with an under the neck leash attachment. She can pant, drink, bark but she does not pull and tug. In fact, when I first put it on her and she would pull it tight, she stopped, looked at me and backed up. I no longer fear lizards or loose dogs. I cannot recommend this collar enough.
D
I dont praise him right after a correction, that would be stupid. He gets corrected, given his command to heel and once we have gone a few paces, with him heeling correctly, then he gets a good boy.
Forced compliance and corrections are two different things. What I would consider forced compliance would be using a dog in Schutzhund with little prey drive and using table training wher your dog is forced to go into defense drive when being threatened. Correcting him with a collar does not force him to listen to me. He CHOOSES to listen to me in order to avoid discomforting feelings NOT threatening feelings. But does not force him to listen. Now when you are threatening a dog to bring out its defense drive you ARE forcing the dog to defend itself because you are threatening him, therefore getting the result that YOU wanted. If the dog felt that the prong was a threat then they would defend themselves, but its not that big of a deal, well at least not for Chico.
Forced compliance and corrections are two different things. What I would consider forced compliance would be using a dog in Schutzhund with little prey drive and using table training wher your dog is forced to go into defense drive when being threatened. Correcting him with a collar does not force him to listen to me. He CHOOSES to listen to me in order to avoid discomforting feelings NOT threatening feelings. But does not force him to listen. Now when you are threatening a dog to bring out its defense drive you ARE forcing the dog to defend itself because you are threatening him, therefore getting the result that YOU wanted. If the dog felt that the prong was a threat then they would defend themselves, but its not that big of a deal, well at least not for Chico.