Survey ? for everyone.

[rottiegirl]

The brain structures and nerve-cell connections that characterize the thinking and feeling parts of the brain are not completed until between the 7th and 8th months of gestation. Only after 30 weeks to the brain waves show patterns of waking consciousness when pain can be perceived. The reflex actions that are present before this stage do not indicate ability to feel pain. Abortions virtually never occur after 24 weeks.

thats just weird, because................. Our understanding of the development of the fetal nervous system and fetal pain perception has only crystallized over the past decade. It is now clear that the network which conveys pain in humans (the spino-thalamic system) is fully established and connected by 20 weeks. What has become even more apparent is that premature newborn babies, many born at the same gestational age as late-term aborted babies, likely feel even more pain than babies delivered at full term.

Elements of the pain system first appear much earlier, beginning with pain receptors under the skin of the face at eight weeks and early connections within the pain pathways of the spinal cord at seven weeks. The spinal cord is the "highway" that carries pain information from the limbs and trunk upward to the brain. By 20 weeks, the human fetal brain contains the full complement of one billion neurons in the gray matter, waiting to receive ascending pain impulses. The final connections between pain fibers and the gray matter neurons are completed in the period between 20 to 24 weeks. This is how we as adults "feel" pain; there is no reason to believe this is any different for humans inside the womb.

Observations of human fetal response to painful stimulation support this. A 1994 study published in England by Professor Nicholas Fisk showed that two types of hormones released during pain and stress rose to high levels when blood was drawn (for necessary testing) from the living fetus by puncturing the abdomen. As a "control" experiment, blood was drawn from the painless umbilical vein source in other cases; these unborn babies did not release the pain and stress hormones.

These observations were made in fetuses as early as 19 weeks of age. An earlier study by Dr. Joachim Partch of Kiel, Germany, detected similar hormones from the amniotic fluid as early as 16 weeks into the pregnancy.

 

[panzer426]

thanks for posting that rottiegirl...I was thinking 14-15 weeks but didnt say it because I couldnt remember

 

[rottiegirl]

thanks for posting that rottiegirl...I was thinking 14-15 weeks but didnt say it because I couldnt remember

well you were pretty close, because it has been proven that babies can feel pain as early as 16 weeks. most abortions take place after that time period.

 

[Gallien Jacks]

GJ was that referred to me?

no i was speaking in general

 

[rottiegirl]

More info on fetus pain. The very last sentence holds a good question!..........the magnitude of metabolic and other stress responses to invasive procedures and surgical operations is three to five times greater in premature babies than in adults who undergo similar types of surgery
higher concentrations of anesthetic drugs are required to maintain effective surgical anesthesia in premature babies than in older age groups
the premature spinal cord shows increased excitability to incoming sensations, including pain
premature babies withdraw from smaller degrees of pain than do full-term babies or adults (defined as a lower threshold of the cutaneous flexor reflex)
neurotransmitters (chemicals released by one nerve cell to relay a message to the next nerve cell) are found in abundance in the premature baby's spinal cord. Those neurotransmitters that mediate pain (substance P, L-glutamate, VIP, CGRP) are present in the second trimester; however, those transmitters from descending neurons that inhibit pain (5-HT, norepinephrine, dopamine) do not make their appearance largely until later in pregnancy. This suggests that the premature baby (or mid-to-late second-trimester fetus) lives through a vulnerable period when raw pain impulses from the body may roar through unchecked by the modifying inhibitory system (the "gate-control" mechanism) that we enjoy as adults.
In other words, the mechanisms by which the second-trimester fetus perceives pain are well established before mechanisms designed to blunt pain, which do not begin to develop meaningfully before 28 weeks.

These disturbing revelations raise issues which should ripple well beyond a basic science discussion, beyond even the established battle lines of the abortion debate itself. The question arises, how can we allow this?

 

[showpug]

well you were pretty close, because it has been proven that babies can feel pain as early as 16 weeks. most abortions take place after that time period.

I had no idea that most abortions take place that late! That is the second trimester! How horrifying! I am 18 weeks pregnant and the baby is 8 inches long, can suck it's thumb and I can feel it kicking!

 

[rottiegirl]

I had no idea that most abortions take place that late! That is the second trimester! How horrifying! I am 18 weeks pregnant and the baby is 8 inches long, can suck it's thumb and I can feel it kicking!

yeah, sad but true! your baby can kick and move yet people claim that its just a blob of cells that cant feel anything. in some rare cases that still happen today, babies are aborted at the third trimester when the baby is around 8 months. they induce false labor, when the babies body is sticking out, they cut a hole in the base of the head and suck the brains out while the baby is moving.

 

[angela]

no matter if it's wrong or not, abortion should not be made illegal. There will still be women with unwanted babies, who they will either carry until full term and will not be able to give them a good life... adoption's not always a bad thing but a lot of people are selfish about it... why give away welfare money?... and then u will have the other women who will try to use their own methods of abortion, with dirty pocketknives or whatever else is handy... which is bad for everyone involved... however late-term abortion is DEFINITELY wrong and i'm glad it's illegal in most places...women know before the 3rd trimester that they're pregnant and if they didn't want the child, they have had plenty of time to make that decision.

 

[Ebony923]

Either go through it (only 9 months) and save a human life or kill the baby? you say that the mother shouldnt pay for it so she should kill the baby, but guess what? by killing the baby then he would be paying for it! you blame the man, but then you kill the poor baby? dont you think the woman would feel good about saving the babies life and giving it a family, or you think she will look back and feel good about killing her baby?

OK so like a long time ago in this debate you said that it's mostly the older childern that dont get adopted. Where did those kids come from..huh..Yes some came to the orphaneges when they were that old but some came when they WERE newborns and nobody adopted them and so they cept living there until they became older and now nobody wants them.


And everybody is saying "killing" the baby thats a harsh word.

 

[Zoom]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the death penalty? The permanent removal from society of those a jury of 12 have deemed too dangerous to live?

Ok, I do have to comment on a couple of things. One, the government WILL NOT IN ANY WAY AT ALL help out a pregnant woman with anything unless she manages to qualify for welfare. Two, I think you would be incredibly hard pressed to find a woman who was raped who didn't know before 1 month had passed whether or not they were pregnant. Three, most abortions take place long before 16 weeks. Four, abortion has not been proven to increase the risk of cervical cancer at all (I'm almost positive I've seen those 'facts' on a super pro-life website and thus they are very skewed); later complications in concieving or increase the risk of death are no higher from an abortion that they are from a normal pregnancy and/or childbirth. Five, pregnancies from rape are much more common than most people would like to think.

I don't think that I am in any position to judge what a person does in face of tragedy. They should have the choice of a safe, sterile operation available to them at that time, versus the dangerous routes of trying to mix herbs, throwing themselves down flights of stairs, having a friend punch them in the stomach, or resorting to back ally coat hanger abortions.

On the death penalty: I used to be all for it, and I still think that in certain cases it should be used. However, I have a fast-fading faith in the judicial system and it's impartiability. I also think that we would have so much more room in the prision system if we eased off of those convicted of 'cotton candy' crimes...such as those caught with 2 ounces of marijuana. Rape, murder, molestation, felony theft, assault...these are all crimes for which the prision system is a well-deserved (possibly final) stop.

 

[panzer426]

harsh or not it IS what we are talking about here.
it shouldnt be illegal because some women will keep the babies they dont want for welfare and other reasons or try to abort it themselves? robbery is illegal but people still do it. murder is illegal but people still do it. statutory rape is illegal but people still do it. and maybe the most applicable to this particular part of the debate (keep it legal so they dont hurt/kill themselves) are you saying heroine should be legal? it is legal but people still do it and often over dose and die from it.
yes it is sad that if it were illegal women would still do it themselves or keep the baby for wrong reasons. but that is how laws work, in most cases it would solve the problem, but no law works 100% of the time.

 

[panzer426]

Four, abortion has not been proven to increase the risk of cervical cancer at all (I'm almost positive I've seen those 'facts' on a super pro-life website and thus they are very skewed); later complications in concieving or increase the risk of death are no higher from an abortion that they are from a normal pregnancy and/or childbirth.QUOTE]
not true. many if not all doctors who perform abortions do make their patients aware of the fact that it DOES increase chances for cancer (cervical and uterine).

 

[Ebony923]

O yeah sorry......on the death penalty thing I am for it if the have PROVED them guilty. But if they have proved them guiltiy and given them the death penalty then dont let them sit in jail and rot away untill they wish they were dead, do and get it over with....for people who dont have any rights(prisoners) tax payers and the government are giving them a whole lot of money to do things that they dont need like collage in prison because i dont know abut you but if i was a bussiness owner and a person that has a felony record like 15 for child molesting or somthing i wouldnt want to give them a job so whats the use of paying for their collage.

 

[panzer426]

just a few...do a search on abortion related cancer, abortion health risks, abortion related suicide, abortion related depression etc etc

http://www.wprc.org/21.45.0.0.1.0.phtml

http://womensissues.about.com/b/a/192684.htm

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/effect_of_abortion.asp

http://www.mycpc.org/abort_medical.shtml

http://www.afterabortion.org/news/deaths_smj.html

 

[rottiegirl]

no matter if it's wrong or not, abortion should not be made illegal. There will still be women with unwanted babies, who they will either carry until full term and will not be able to give them a good life... adoption's not always a bad thing but a lot of people are selfish about it... why give away welfare money?... and then u will have the other women who will try to use their own methods of abortion, with dirty pocketknives or whatever else is handy... which is bad for everyone involved... however late-term abortion is DEFINITELY wrong and i'm glad it's illegal in most places...women know before the 3rd trimester that they're pregnant and if they didn't want the child, they have had plenty of time to make that decision.

that doesnt make sence to me. Whether its wrong or not, abortion should be legal? why give away welfare money? i dont know what you are trying to say. also, are you saying that women will try to give herself an abortion if its illegal? if abortion is illegal it will cut down on how many babies are killed, period. if a woman is stupid enough to try to kill her baby with a pocket knife then i guess she has to suffer the consequence!

 

[panzer426]

I completely agree and I think that if she does then yes hospitals should provide her health care, but she should be tried for attempted murder and at the very least forced to go to counselling because of the self mutilation.
science sometimes refers to fetuses as parasites, technically they are. a woman trying to cut out her own fetus is just as stupid as someone trying to cut out their own cancerous tumor. they would be given medical treatment and counselling for cutting themselves.

 

[rottiegirl]

OK so like a long time ago in this debate you said that it's mostly the older childern that dont get adopted. Where did those kids come from..huh..Yes some came to the orphaneges when they were that old but some came when they WERE newborns and nobody adopted them and so they cept living there until they became older and now nobody wants them.


And everybody is saying "killing" the baby thats a harsh word.

if your not killing the baby then what do you call it? its a harsh work and the act is even harsher! the older kids came from families that couldnt take care of them, they came from abusive situations, they were taken from their family by CPS, etc. It is far better to respond to personal and social predicaments constructively and with compassion. One such constructive and compassionate solution to the legalization of abortion is adoption. “An estimated yearly two million couples plus one million single persons are waiting to adopt” (Human Life Alliance of Minnesota Education Fund Inc. 8). Why then, do people have abortions? It seems as though Americans always tend to look for the easiest way out of their problems. Although, after taking the lives of their child, most individuals find that abortion is definitely not the easiest way out. Thus, no matter the situation, adoption proves to be a most primary solution to the deadly effects of abortion. Even in the rare case of conception from criminal rape, adoption is necessary. A child does not deserve to die for its father’s crime. An abortion will only add to the traumatic experiences of the victim. Criminal rape resembles abortion in the sense that both are violent acts against innocent victims.

 

[rottiegirl]

Ok, I do have to comment on a couple of things. One, the government WILL NOT IN ANY WAY AT ALL help out a pregnant woman with anything unless she manages to qualify for welfare. Two, I think you would be incredibly hard pressed to find a woman who was raped who didn't know before 1 month had passed whether or not they were pregnant. Three, most abortions take place long before 16 weeks. Four, abortion has not been proven to increase the risk of cervical cancer at all (I'm almost positive I've seen those 'facts' on a super pro-life website and thus they are very skewed); later complications in concieving or increase the risk of death are no higher from an abortion that they are from a normal pregnancy and/or childbirth. Five, pregnancies from rape are much more common than most people would like to think.

being 15 years old or what not and financialy unstable the woman would qualify for welfare. this is how rare pregnancy from rape really is... There are about 100 million women in the United States old enough to be at risk for assault rape. Let’s use a figure of 200,000 forcible rapes every year. The studies available agree that there are no more than two pregnancies per 1,000 assault rapes.

So much for the numbers. Let’s look at it from another angle and see if that figure makes sense.

- Of these 200,000 women who were raped, one-third were either too old or too young to get pregnant. That leaves 133,000 at risk of pregnancy.

- A woman is capable of being fertilized only three days out of her 30-day month. So divide 133,000 by 10, and 13,300 women remain.

- One-fourth of all women in the United States of child-bearing age have been sterilized. That drops the figure to 10,000.

- Only half of the assailants penetrate her body and/or deposit sperm. Cut it in half again. We are own to 5,000.

- Fifteen percent of men are sterile; that drops the figure to 4,250. Fifteen percent of non-surgically sterilized women are naturally sterile. That reduces the number to 3,600.

- Another 15% are on the pill and/or are already pregnant. Now the figure is 3,070. Now factor in something that all adults know. It takes from five to ten months for an average couple to achieve a pregnancy. Using the smaller figure, to be conservative, divide the 3,000 figure by 5, and the number drops to about 600.

In a healthy, peaceful marriage, the miscarriage rate ranges up to about 15%. In this case, we have incredible emotional trauma. Her body is upset. Even if she conceives, the miscarriage rate is higher than in a more normal pregnancy. If she loses 20% of 600, there are 450 left. Finally, we must factor in one of the most important reasons why a rape victim rarely gets pregnant, and that is psychic trauma. Every woman is aware that stress and emotional factors can alter her menstrual cycle. To get pregnant and stay pregnant, a woman’s body must produce a very sophisticated mix of hormones. Hormone production is controlled by a part of the brain which is easily influenced by emotions. There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape. This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation and even nurturing of a pregnancy. So what further percentage reduction in pregnancy will this cause? No one really knows, but this factor certainly cuts the last figure by at least 50%, and probably more, leaving a final figure of 225 women pregnant each year, a number that closely matches the 200 found in clinical studies

 

[BigDog2191]

Got a question for those who don't believe in abortion;

What if the baby was really badly handi-capped? Say he/she would be blind, deaf, unable to walk, etc.

Life wouldn't exactly be FAIR to the baby, really.

 

[panzer426]

in my town we ahve had 3 abortion clinics close up in the last 5 weeks. not because people pushed them out but because those who worked and volounteered there said they could not in good consience do it anymore. they didnt all suddenly find god or anything, they all (those who spoke to reporters, suprisingly a lot of them did) said that they saw too many women come in wanting the abortion so their parents or spouse/significant other wouldnt know, so that they could keep cheerleading or going to college or whatever, and just because they didnt want a baby yet.
if you dont want a baby, dont have sex (even without condoms, the pill/patch we all know it happens). if you were raped, sorry that happened...seek counselling and be happy that you were blessed with a baby, give it up if it wasnt a blessing.
sorry but there is only one excuse and that is that the pregnancy would have killed the mother. the extreme majority of reasons women use for getting abortions are purely jealous. "it makes my life easier", "I'm not ready for a baby", "it isnt my husbands/boyfriends and I dont want my husband/boyfriend to find out", "my parents would kill me if they knew I got pregnant", "Im not ready to have a baby", "Im still in school", I dont want to get fat while Im in high school", "I dont want my school mates to make fun of me", "we only had sex once and I dont want to raise it alone" etc etc etc are rediculous excuses.