She listened; she just didn't feel like it

[Amalthea]

Sorry this is one of my long-winded posts hehe... Does anyone have a dog that will 'sort of' obey and come back if it gets loose, but hesitate to give in and come all the way back? This happened with Moro last night... she walks every day with me or my husband on a leash and harness, she also has another leash and a regular collar for just taking a potty break outside. Well, last night around 12 am I had Midas outside for what I thought would be a quick bathroom break. He seems to naturally understand where the edge of the front yard is (our front is unfenced, back is fenced in) and doesn't want to wander more than a few feet from my side; I've never seen him run away or not come when he's called, which is really nice. So I had Moro taking a break on her leash and collar while Midas did his thing loose in the front yard, since she hates not getting to go outside at the same time he does. Anyway, Midas went to the bathroom and I praised him and called him back, and he came running back right away and went straight into the house.

That's when I started to follow him up the porch with Moro, and in a split-second, she backed out of her collar and left me standing there on the porch with her leash and collar in my hand. It happened so quick!! She's gotten out accidentally like this before and came back, but we don't ever let her run loose unless we can't help it like last night. I let Midas back in and then went to find her. She always goes the same place when this happens, there's a lab chained up at the house next door and she runs over to play with him. I walked over there and called her... she came running back to our yard, but about 10 feet from the front porch and getting her to go home, she turned around and went back to the other yard. This happened 3 or 4 times in a row... I would approach slowly and call her, and she'd follow me ALMOST all the way back to the house, before turning and running back to her next-door playmate. After a few times of this, I went and got Midas, hoping that if I had him with me, she would follow us back to the house.

This is when she really got stubborn I actually thought it was going to work because she followed me and Midas all the way back to the house, and Midas went right up the front steps and back in the house. But Moro stopped at the edge of the steps, and didn't run. Just STOOD there looking at me, while I held the door open and Midas sat by the doorway! I called her a bunch of times, then I started trying to sweet-talk with her by telling her she'd get a treat if she'd just go in the house, but she continued just standing there at the edge of the porch, looking from me, then out towards the neighbor's house, and back at me again, as if trying to decide which one would be more worth it, lol... While I was standing there with the door open talking to her like an idiot for a good 10 minutes while I waited for her to make up her mind, good little Midas actually tried to encourage her to come back in... he'd walk off the porch to where she was standing, lick her in the face and then walk back up the steps and into the house... but she still wouldn't follow him. I didn't want to make a move toward her, I was afraid she would take that as her cue to start running again and thought it would be better if I could get her to come all the way inside on her own, but she wouldn't.

I had to get my husband then and he went outside and yelled at her. As soon as she heard his voice, she layed down in the yard with her belly in the air, and he slipped her leash & collar back on and brought her back inside. I think it's harness time all the time for her now, since she can't so easily slip out of that. Anyway, we didn't punish her, but my husband told me last night that she wouldn't listen to me because she doesn't consider me 'dominant' and that I don't have the same authority in my voice when I talk to her... which is true; my voice is a lot less commanding than his can be and she is quicker to obey him at times. Do you think this is a dominancy thing? She obviously knew what she was supposed to do and that I wanted her to come back inside, but I guess she was testing me, or something. Anyone else seen their dog behave like this? with her being a part wolf I know a lot of places say that they are notoriously difficult to get to return when they are running loose... it is a good sign that she at least mostly came back and didn't run away completely, I suppose... anyone have any advice on how to get her to come all the way back inside if this should happen again? We're gonna try to not let it, of course, but we all know that sometimes dogs just get out before anyone can help it. We practice "come", "sit", "stay" & "fetch" when she's in the fenced yard with me, and she does really well, but she knows the difference between when she's inside the fence and when she has freedom to run off and not listen.

 

[Doberluv]

No, I absolutely don't see this as a "dominance" thing. Yelling at a dog doesn't train a dog. It only causes confusion, fear and distrust. That's why he rolled over on his back in submission. It does not make a good leader. It makes you look unsure, weak, worried, scared....to a dog. If your dog obeys your husband, it is because he wants to avoid aversives. Intimidating a dog when you want him to come is a sure way to train him NOT to come. He does not understand anger or yelling. It only makes him insecure because his leader looks insecure and worried. Why would he want to come when he's being yelled at? This is not training. Your dog appeased your husband but he doesn't know what it is he was suppose to do. Dogs repeat behaviors for which they have had a sufficient number of reinforcements for. Reinforcers are something that your dog loves and loves a lot. Meat, cheese, hotdogs, a highly valued toy, but most dogs love yummy food.

Your dog is not being "stubborn" or not "listening" or being "defiant." This is undertraining. All those adjectives used to describe a dog are only human projections. Dogs do not think that way. Dogs do what works. They're innocently selfish. They're ammoral and do not share our value system. They're opportunists and do what works best for themselves or they wouldn't have survived all this time. That said, if there is a motivator which is stronger and better than what the dog perceives you to have for him, he will engage in the behavior which gives him the best payoff. In this case, visiting with the other dog. Coming inside or to you has not historically been reinforcing enough for him and that's why he hesitated to come....staying outside, visiting the other dog was very attractive to him and that won out over you. He's not being naughty, bad, stubborn or defiant. He's simply doing what dogs do best, being a dog and doing what works for a hunter, scavenger opportunistic animal. People forget these are animals and don't think like we do or have our values or morals.

What you need to do is work on his recall (come) more in a controlled situation. Don't call the dog to come EVER if you are not 100% sure he's indeed coming...until he's right in front of you. If he doesn't come when you use that word, that word becomes meaningless to him. When he does get to you, then use the cue word, "come" or whatever and reinforce with a yummy treat and praise. You'll have to start making coming to you and coming in the house the most fantastic party ever, super duper treats, (fresh meat pieces, hot dog pieces, cheese..not too big) loads of fun...continue some games inside for 10 minutes or so when he comes in. Get a favorite toy out that is ONLY used for when he comes in when called. Play tug (if he knows the rules to give when you say) or hide and seek. Dogs love finding you.

You say that normally he comes. Now that he has been reinforced for NOT coming...he got to stay and visit with the dog, not come inside, this behavior is more likely to be repeated. You need to reinforce the behavior you like and reinforce a lot, consistantly. When he becomes 95% reliable with his response, you can start varying the times when you give a treat....not every time, skip a few without any pattern. This will strengthen the behavior because he's going to try harder to get the reward when he doesn't get it one time here and there. But this is down the road. For some time now, you'll need to reinforce each and every time he comes when called unil it gets so he comes every time.

You'll need to practice in low distractions at first and gradually practice with more distractions. Distractions are a whole different ball game to a dog. They don't generalize well. In other words, coming when there's nothing else going on is one behavior. Coming when there are dogs to play with, kids to visit is a completely different skill to a dog. Just because sit means sit in your livingroom doesn't mean that sit means sit in a dog park with all kinds of dogs running around. These things need practice, starting with easy and gradually working up to more difficult. Easy...use pretty good treats. Difficult...use super treats.

 

[Amalthea]

Thank you for the advice.... she does obey "come" well when she is inside the fence, but like you said, she knows the difference between that and when she is outside the fence and has other distractions to get her attention. Just to clarify; Moro is our female wolfdog and she's the one who ran off to play with the neighbor's dog... Midas is the boy (a lab) and he's the one who always obeys and comes immediately when we call him, even if other people or dogs are around to distract him. Moro does usually come when she's called, but like I described, when she gets loose and is distracted by more interesting things, like other dogs, she will hang nearby and then go running off to do what she feels like, usually she will come most of the way back and then run again, and come back again for a while like she did last night. Although she has always come back eventually, she doesn't obey the 'come' command right away like Midas will. She does do well when there aren't distractions, like in the fenced yard when she only has to come, fetch, or sit to get a treat and doesn't have the outside world to tempt her to run off. I will keep working with her on this in the yard, and do my best to avoid letting her get loose again, I think it will be better now to use her harness all the time even for a quick nighttime potty break, since she won't be able to slip out of it like she did the collar last night. My husband thought it was a dominancy thing I think because when she heard him yell last night, she laid with her belly in the air in response, which I've heard is a submissive behavior... I don't know if she thought she was in trouble, or what caused her to do that, but we tried not to reinforce the behavior at all by not punishing or rewarding her when he got the leash back on and brought her inside...we just basically went to bed like normal after she got back in the house, so she didn't get a treat for this, and we didn't want to scold her either since she did allow my husband to put her leash back on.

 

[Doberluv]

My husband thought it was a dominancy thing I think because when she heard him yell last night, she laid with her belly in the air in response, which I've heard is a submissive behavior...

It was a dominance thing on your husband's end. You dog was not being dominant by not coming. It was a matter of undertraining. Your husband was being domineering and so she responded with submission....that's the belly exposed.

I'm sorry I got the dogs mixed up...who was doing what. But the principle is still the same.

When you practice, if the dog comes part way, go ahead and reward. But as you continue to practice, up the ante. Don't reward for that approximation....ask for more. Get the dog to come closer and then to sit in front of you formally. Don't reinforce for less. Be consistant. You want a nice, clean, exact recall. Get the dog to come quickly to you and sit in front by making happy, playful, enticing fun. You can even turn away from her and run a little the other way. Get her coming fast and promptly. Then reward big time. You can turn her loose again after she comes so she learns that all the fun doesn't end just because she comes. She gets a treat and gets to go play some more.

It's good that Moro usually comes when she is motivated to. But she's not coming all the way and she's running off again. This needs work. If you always make coming to you all the way the best thing ever, you'll get her reliable too. Good luck. (remember, don't bribe by showing her the treat first. Only reward...the very second she comes to you.)

Just try and remember that it's not that she's being stubborn or defiant or whatever. She's doing what works for her. That's just the way they are. It does dogs a real disservice to put our way of processing information onto them, as if they think like we do. "I know she wants me to come, but I just don't feel like it so neener neener neener," as if that's a rotten thing to do, as it would be with a human, an immoral thing. Dogs don't have that ability to think all that through. If it works for them, they do it. Period. That's all the further it goes. It's better not to come or it's better to come.

 

[Gempress]

Just a random comment here.

Please do your best to make sure that Moro is well trained. People tend to be especially critical and wary of "scary" breeds like wolfdogs, rotts, pit bulls, dobermans, etc. A poodle prancing around off-leash would usually not get much comment. But a wolfdog in the same circumstances would probably send people stampeding to the phones to call the police. It doesn't matter how friendly the dog is. I have experienced this first-hand.

 

[Amalthea]

When you practice, if the dog comes part way, go ahead and reward. But as you continue to practice, up the ante. Don't reward for that approximation....ask for more. Get the dog to come closer and then to sit in front of you formally. Don't reinforce for less. Be consistant. You want a nice, clean, exact recall. Get the dog to come quickly to you and sit in front by making happy, playful, enticing fun. You can even turn away from her and run a little the other way. Get her coming fast and promptly. Then reward big time. You can turn her loose again after she comes so she learns that all the fun doesn't end just because she comes. She gets a treat and gets to go play some more.

It's good that Moro usually comes when she is motivated to. But she's not coming all the way and she's running off again. This needs work. If you always make coming to you all the way the best thing ever, you'll get her reliable too. Good luck. (remember, don't bribe by showing her the treat first. Only reward...the very second she comes to you.)

Just try and remember that it's not that she's being stubborn or defiant or whatever. She's doing what works for her. That's just the way they are. It does dogs a real disservice to put our way of processing information onto them, as if they think like we do. "I know she wants me to come, but I just don't feel like it so neener neener neener," as if that's a rotten thing to do, as it would be with a human, an immoral thing. Dogs don't have that ability to think all that through. If it works for them, they do it. Period. That's all the further it goes. It's better not to come or it's better to come.

That makes sense and I'll work on it, thanks again for the advice.... the last thing you said, that it's either better for them to come or not to come.... that's what sort of cracked me up about her last night while this was happening, although I was upset and didn't laugh about it then... it wasn't quite like 'neener neener neener' lol, but it was like she was sort of weighing her options... when she saw Midas follow me and go back inside the house, I rewarded him in front of her, and stayed holding the door open trying to get her to follow his example... and at this point, she wasn't running off anymore, she was just standing there and took several minutes literally just standing in that spot right next to the porch but not quite on the steps, looking back and fourth between me and the neighbor's house, as if trying to make up her mind about which one would be better


Also to Gempress, she has done well with training, although she is more independent and doesn't stick right by me like Midas will... we don't want her to be running off-leash or outside the fenced yard, it was accidental last night and that was the first time she had been able to get loose like that for months. When she was a puppy, we did let her run off-leash in the front yard, but once she got about 6 months old, she started to wander farther and so we stopped allowing it. She is very good on her leash and LOVES to take long walks/jogs with me, it surprised me that she slipped out of her collar last night because she really hasn't done that since she was a puppy and we first introduced her to the leash. Using the harness instead should solve any potential problems with that happening again though. I know what you mean about people being skittish about a dog like her... even when we are walking with her being a very good girl and keeping stride next to me, harnessed and leashed, some people still stare at her and make comments like "I hope she's friendly/I hope she doesn't bite"... for every one of those people, though, there's someone else who will stop me and tell me how pretty she is and ask me questions about her.... she isn't the type of dog I would want running loose regardless of how friendly she is, for the same reasons that you mentioned. She is big, energetic, and can seem pretty intimidating to some people simply because of the type of dog she is.