Question about choke chains
- Thread starter opokki
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You are exactly right oppoki. Also, many trainers will claim that their check-trained dogs are highly motivated by praise and work happily. If this were true there would be no use for the corrections. Operant-based training techniques have no need for any physical (or audial) reprimand, it is the trainers job to motivate the animal to do what they want it to of it's own free will. That is training with finesse.
M
You Gotta Be Kidding.
Seems to me Arienne has been using your methods........didn't I just see the poor girl posting for HELP with Gunnar, that these things weren't working??????? I think you mean audible. Ain't being a smart arse but after reading what you posted, I couldn't even get the right pronunciation out of my mouth, rofl.
Seems to me Arienne has been using your methods........didn't I just see the poor girl posting for HELP with Gunnar, that these things weren't working??????? I think you mean audible. Ain't being a smart arse but after reading what you posted, I couldn't even get the right pronunciation out of my mouth, rofl.
M
<<Difference #1. Traditional Training presents information in big blocks. Operant training presents information broken down into tiny approximations.
In Traditional Training the dog is expected to perform at a Terminal Response level, and anything less than this is "corrected" in some manner. In operant training, because behavior is built in tiny steps, whoever is getting trained has many opportunities for reinforcement. This has the long-term effect of making the behavior very strong; and also the tiny steps are much easier to assimilate. In this interchange the trainer's efforts are reinforced also. Success begets Success.>>
In other words, Traditional is for dogs with brains, and Operant is for dogs who are somewhat retarded, correct? My Dobe learned just about execise in 3 times showing him. Any correction was the good old pop of the collar simply to get that extra 1% from him to make it militaryily precise. Max and I were both perfectionists. If I had tried "tiny steps" he would have fallen asleep, roflmbo.
In Traditional Training the dog is expected to perform at a Terminal Response level, and anything less than this is "corrected" in some manner. In operant training, because behavior is built in tiny steps, whoever is getting trained has many opportunities for reinforcement. This has the long-term effect of making the behavior very strong; and also the tiny steps are much easier to assimilate. In this interchange the trainer's efforts are reinforced also. Success begets Success.>>
In other words, Traditional is for dogs with brains, and Operant is for dogs who are somewhat retarded, correct? My Dobe learned just about execise in 3 times showing him. Any correction was the good old pop of the collar simply to get that extra 1% from him to make it militaryily precise. Max and I were both perfectionists. If I had tried "tiny steps" he would have fallen asleep, roflmbo.
M
Very Simple
Do you remember Pavlov and the ringing bell? It is called conditioned reflex or response. Eventually you only have to jingle the collar for the dog to know to "try again". Not that it really matters.....the pop of the collar is so slight as it is that eventually the dog knows as soon as it hears the noise the collar makes during the pop that is all it takes.
Do you remember Pavlov and the ringing bell? It is called conditioned reflex or response. Eventually you only have to jingle the collar for the dog to know to "try again". Not that it really matters.....the pop of the collar is so slight as it is that eventually the dog knows as soon as it hears the noise the collar makes during the pop that is all it takes.
Lot's of people say these things aren't working, but it's often the person attempting to train who isn't working...who isn't doing it right.
I use this method and have fantastic results.
Yesterday, in fact I took out my clicker and in one session, Lyric's lagging heel became 100% cleaner, including about turns. I never once had to correct, jerk, speak...nothing. While he would lag, I'd just keep walking, when he would get in the right position, I'd click and give a treat, keep on walking. As long as he stayed in the correct position, he got C/T often. He might lag again and I'd keep walking....no treat, no attention, just keep walking, looking straight ahead, but soon he realized where he had to be in order to get the treat and then he would catch up quickly right along side my leg. He'll forget and it will take more practice, but it's no different than the pop the leash method. They can forget with that too until it's ingrained. But the difference is, it's more fun and the dog works harder and learns better for reward than to avoid punishment. Why pop a leash and make it less pleasant if you don't have to? There is absolutely no reason to train ANY dog using such compulsive methods. I think that the saying, "all dogs are different and need different methods" is way overused. I think virtually all dogs will work for reward if the motivation needed is found by the trainer. All animals, including humans, work for a reward. What on earth do we do which has absolutely no payoff? Nothing. Anything I do needs to have some sort of reward. I might try something once or twice, but when nothing whatsoever comes of it for me, I won't repeat it anymore. It might be that I'm doing something for someone else where there is no direct benefit to me, but there will have to be some payoff...maybe it makes me feel good inside that someone else feels good because I did that for them. Whatever....there has to be a payoff to increase the odds of continuing repitition of a behavior. This is about learning behavior. It is widespread and it is fact, scientifically proven. This is not about individual breeds, temperaments or different species. It is about any animal with a thinking brain who needs food to survive and knows how to get it. It is about inherant needs which drive behavior and learning.
If anyone says that motivating a dog to want to survive by offering what it needs for survival... isn't helping shape it's behavior is doing something wrong. It is not the dog not wanting to survive and eat. It's not the dog's inability to learn. We see well trained dogs all the time and dogs trained with operant conditioning. What does that leave? It's how the owner/trainer is doing it. They're not getting the timing of reward or something. It takes some reading and practice, like anything else.
I use this method and have fantastic results.
Yesterday, in fact I took out my clicker and in one session, Lyric's lagging heel became 100% cleaner, including about turns. I never once had to correct, jerk, speak...nothing. While he would lag, I'd just keep walking, when he would get in the right position, I'd click and give a treat, keep on walking. As long as he stayed in the correct position, he got C/T often. He might lag again and I'd keep walking....no treat, no attention, just keep walking, looking straight ahead, but soon he realized where he had to be in order to get the treat and then he would catch up quickly right along side my leg. He'll forget and it will take more practice, but it's no different than the pop the leash method. They can forget with that too until it's ingrained. But the difference is, it's more fun and the dog works harder and learns better for reward than to avoid punishment. Why pop a leash and make it less pleasant if you don't have to? There is absolutely no reason to train ANY dog using such compulsive methods. I think that the saying, "all dogs are different and need different methods" is way overused. I think virtually all dogs will work for reward if the motivation needed is found by the trainer. All animals, including humans, work for a reward. What on earth do we do which has absolutely no payoff? Nothing. Anything I do needs to have some sort of reward. I might try something once or twice, but when nothing whatsoever comes of it for me, I won't repeat it anymore. It might be that I'm doing something for someone else where there is no direct benefit to me, but there will have to be some payoff...maybe it makes me feel good inside that someone else feels good because I did that for them. Whatever....there has to be a payoff to increase the odds of continuing repitition of a behavior. This is about learning behavior. It is widespread and it is fact, scientifically proven. This is not about individual breeds, temperaments or different species. It is about any animal with a thinking brain who needs food to survive and knows how to get it. It is about inherant needs which drive behavior and learning.
If anyone says that motivating a dog to want to survive by offering what it needs for survival... isn't helping shape it's behavior is doing something wrong. It is not the dog not wanting to survive and eat. It's not the dog's inability to learn. We see well trained dogs all the time and dogs trained with operant conditioning. What does that leave? It's how the owner/trainer is doing it. They're not getting the timing of reward or something. It takes some reading and practice, like anything else.
Manchesters said:
Now of course it CAN'T be the training method--it has to be that either she hasn't tried it long enough, or she isn't doing it right---RIGHT! Or could it be that the poor pup should have been trained "traditionally" from the start??? 
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Poor pup huh? When I train him using positive reinforcement I don't get the ears plastered back to his skull with the look, "why did you do that to me mama, I'm sorry". He doesn't get physical reprimands, it confuses him and then he is unwilling to train.
Also I know how to properly use a check chain, have used one numerous times in the past with all the dogs I have had before Gunnar. I understand the proper technique but I don't like watching my dog "melt down" when he doesn't get whats going on.
I will most likely continue to use the check chain on our walks to help finish up his heel. Since I only have time to walk Katya and Gunnar together it is hard to use treats to ask him to heel, big old Katya gets in the way! We will keep working on the other dog issue, that is why I signed him up for obediance training in September.
Just wanted to add how proud I was of Gunnar yesterday, we went to a childrens fair put on by our church and he was wonderful. He had up to five children petting him at a time and he soaked it up. No biting or jumping, even when he saw the llama's and goats he was a peach. Got tons of compliments on what a good boy he was, and so young too!
Way to go Adrienne! He does sound like a good boy. And it is hard to walk more than one dog at a time and try to train one with the other in the way.
Yup...there's no better way to ruin a dog's motivation to learn and work. Conversly, working for reward only motivates a dog and makes them unworried to try something new. They just excell.
It's amazing what that clicker has done with cleaning up Lyric's obedience skills. He understands exactly.....precisely what I mean when he hears that distinctive click marking out what he just did to get the treat. Yesterday he got fat free hot dogs for the first time. I sliced them lengthwise down the middle twice and then across in tiny, tiny pieces, microwaved them for a few minutes and dried them with a paper towel and cooled them. That way they're not so slimey and greasy. Wow! He thought those were the greatest. He was sooooo willing to figure out what I wanted and concentrated on the job. After a while, when he gets things down pat, I'll go onto more like a random treating to keep him from getting too dependent on the treats, but that's later.
I have these make-shift jumps set up in my yard and a teeter totter and weave poles....collecting more stuff for agility. He was not exactly wanting to go over the lounge chair I had for a jump. LOL. He would do the other two and go around the lounge chair. He's out ahead of me a little when he's running and jumping. I tell him jump, jump, jump. He got praised and treated for jumping two out of three jumps. Then after a bit, I stopped treating him for just doing the two. I still told him "yeah.." because he HAS to have fun doing this. Not only would a collar correction wreck his fun, but I couldn't do it anyhow because he's off leash and way ahead of me. LOL. I just didn't give him a hotdog. After a couple tries, he decided he better try harder in order to get the hotdog, so viola! He went over the first two jumps and straight on over the lounge chair. He got the rest of the baggie of hot dog pieces. And lots of jumping and cheering. LOL.
Yup...there's no better way to ruin a dog's motivation to learn and work. Conversly, working for reward only motivates a dog and makes them unworried to try something new. They just excell.
It's amazing what that clicker has done with cleaning up Lyric's obedience skills. He understands exactly.....precisely what I mean when he hears that distinctive click marking out what he just did to get the treat. Yesterday he got fat free hot dogs for the first time. I sliced them lengthwise down the middle twice and then across in tiny, tiny pieces, microwaved them for a few minutes and dried them with a paper towel and cooled them. That way they're not so slimey and greasy. Wow! He thought those were the greatest. He was sooooo willing to figure out what I wanted and concentrated on the job. After a while, when he gets things down pat, I'll go onto more like a random treating to keep him from getting too dependent on the treats, but that's later.
I have these make-shift jumps set up in my yard and a teeter totter and weave poles....collecting more stuff for agility. He was not exactly wanting to go over the lounge chair I had for a jump. LOL. He would do the other two and go around the lounge chair. He's out ahead of me a little when he's running and jumping. I tell him jump, jump, jump. He got praised and treated for jumping two out of three jumps. Then after a bit, I stopped treating him for just doing the two. I still told him "yeah.." because he HAS to have fun doing this. Not only would a collar correction wreck his fun, but I couldn't do it anyhow because he's off leash and way ahead of me. LOL. I just didn't give him a hotdog. After a couple tries, he decided he better try harder in order to get the hotdog, so viola! He went over the first two jumps and straight on over the lounge chair. He got the rest of the baggie of hot dog pieces. And lots of jumping and cheering. LOL.
That's so great Doberluv, how old is Lyric now? Sounds like you too have a lot of fun working on agility. When we were at the fair yesterday, (it's held in a park) I had Gunnar going down the slide and climbing through the tunnels, he even made it up the net ladder . All the kids got the biggest kick out of him and he was working for nothing but praise and the joy of doing it and having fun.
Katya will be going home to my mom hopefully in the next few weeks, then it will be much easier to work with Gunnar on our walks, I will go straight back to working with the clicker and praise as soon as it is just us two. In the meantime I am walking a 140lb Katya and a 77lb Gunnar in a busy part of our city, I need to be able to maintain control over both of them at all times and it is easier with the halti on Katya and the pinch on Gunnar, just for other people's safety sake from Katya and my own sanity for Gunnar when we pass another dog.
. All the kids got the biggest kick out of him and he was working for nothing but praise and the joy of doing it and having fun.Katya will be going home to my mom hopefully in the next few weeks, then it will be much easier to work with Gunnar on our walks, I will go straight back to working with the clicker and praise as soon as it is just us two. In the meantime I am walking a 140lb Katya and a 77lb Gunnar in a busy part of our city, I need to be able to maintain control over both of them at all times and it is easier with the halti on Katya and the pinch on Gunnar, just for other people's safety sake from Katya and my own sanity for Gunnar when we pass another dog.
Wow! Gunner is brave to go on the net ladder!!!! It is so nice to hear how well Gunner is doing with the kids and everything. I can understand the need for safety with those big dogs when out on a walk. I'd almost want to seat belt them into a baby walker with remote control brakes on it. My goodness! 140 LBS! Holy moly.
Lyric just turned two Aug 6th and he's 93 -95 LBS. Lyric is still apprehensive to go on the teeter totter....can't quite figure out where his back legs are, but he did it last time in class, but here yesterday it took several tries and then he finally did it all the way to the end. LOL. He's a little chicken about that after falling off. So, we're rewarding baby steps and if he jumps off early, that's ok for now. Gradually we'll get him confident again. Big wuss. He's still such a puppy in many ways.
Lyric just turned two Aug 6th and he's 93 -95 LBS. Lyric is still apprehensive to go on the teeter totter....can't quite figure out where his back legs are, but he did it last time in class, but here yesterday it took several tries and then he finally did it all the way to the end. LOL. He's a little chicken about that after falling off. So, we're rewarding baby steps and if he jumps off early, that's ok for now. Gradually we'll get him confident again. Big wuss. He's still such a puppy in many ways.
You should see me when we get to a corner that is blocked by bushes...extremely tight heel from Katya...that's when I get a bit nervous. I could just see a skateboarder come tearing around the corner and Katya getting ahold of them...not something I ever want to deal with! It is tough having a dog like that, she is such a liability, I will breath a sigh of relief when she goes back home where she belongs...out in the country with nothing around for miles! Gunnar will miss her terribly and poor Neva is going to have to take the brunt of his play when Katya is gone. It is going to be an interesting adjustment period for us!
Lyric sounds like he is doing really well. I am sure he will soon figure out the teeter. How does he do in the weave polls? Those look like a pain for bigger dogs, I know they are spaced further apart but it would still be hard navigating something like that. Good luck with your training and good luck to Lyric!
Lyric sounds like he is doing really well. I am sure he will soon figure out the teeter. How does he do in the weave polls? Those look like a pain for bigger dogs, I know they are spaced further apart but it would still be hard navigating something like that. Good luck with your training and good luck to Lyric!
Y
Back to the choke collars, I use one with Yukon and it works miracles. I had someone actually show me exactly how to use it and what sort of reaction I should get. I was doing the pop abit to hard initially but now just a wiggle of the chain and the boy is right back paying attention. The sound is more of an attention grabber, reminding the doggy that you are still there. There is nothing wrong with using a choke collar and the ones preaching their way just need to remember that there are many ways to train. All having there good points and bad. That includes choke collars, pinch collars, halti's or gentle leaders and positive reinforcement. Please don't start the debate again on who is better and what is better. Stick to the question there is no need for arguments at all.
Just like you claim we don't/can't understand your dogs personalities/behaviors, you can't have any idea of what kind of dog Gunnar is and what kinds of reactions he has. I raise my voice to him and he plasters his ears back, walk toward him in a threating manner, ears plastered back, give him a special look, ears plastered back. We work great as a team, he knows when I am unhappy with his behavior and doesn't necessarily need a correction to get him back on track. He just wants to make his mama happy.
But whatever Manchester, I'm over you and your critizisms. Thanks for all your well meaning posts
But whatever Manchester, I'm over you and your critizisms. Thanks for all your well meaning posts
Adrienne, Lyric is very exuberant when he goes through the weave poles and is learning how to bend. He's getting quite good at it and stays in tight. When the dog enters the weave poles, he MUST do so, leading with his left shoulder. That's another thing the clicker was so good at marking for him. Two or three times and he was consistant, no matter what direction he was coming from or where I was standing. He knows he has to enter with his left shoulder or he'll get disqualified. (He knows all the rules. LOL)
Well, it sounds like there will be an adustment now that you've all gotten attached to Katya. But on the other hand, it will be easier and better for her too to be out in the country.
I know what you mean about sensative. I can just see me correcting my little 5 lb girl Chihuahua with a leash pop. Talk about melt down. She'd slither into the ground. "I'm melting...I'm melting."
Nope....it's reward or nothing for my dogs when training. Lyric is sensative, but not in that way. If I gave him a leash pop, he'd probably just keep going, but it really wouldn't tell him anything much except, "you did that wrong. Shape up buster." And then he'd say, "*****, what's your problem? Why on earth do you keep doing that noisy, yanking chain thingy on my neck? It is so annoying! Why don't you tell me what it is you DO want....actually, forget it. This training is for the birds. I'm thinking we should go for a hike or, hey..what's that over there? Let's go see that. Are we done yet? Got anything to eat?" This way, he's thinking, "Oooooo, I just got a hot dog! Yum. Hmmm, what did I do just now to get that? Oh yeah....catch up with her. Ok, here I come. Is this good? Is this good? Oh, not enough? OK....how 'bout this? Woo hooo, I just got another hot dog and oh my....what's she doing? She's jumping up and down and playing. OMG! another hot dog! Now I know what I'm suppose to be doing. This training is fun. OK....what should I do next? Tell me, tell me, show me. I'm sooooo ready for this. Teach me a new trick! I am so smart to be able to do this. She's so nice to me. Nothing hurts or is scary and I don't get any suprises that I don't understand. This is pure fun." LOL.
Well, it sounds like there will be an adustment now that you've all gotten attached to Katya. But on the other hand, it will be easier and better for her too to be out in the country.
I know what you mean about sensative. I can just see me correcting my little 5 lb girl Chihuahua with a leash pop. Talk about melt down. She'd slither into the ground. "I'm melting...I'm melting."
Nope....it's reward or nothing for my dogs when training. Lyric is sensative, but not in that way. If I gave him a leash pop, he'd probably just keep going, but it really wouldn't tell him anything much except, "you did that wrong. Shape up buster." And then he'd say, "*****, what's your problem? Why on earth do you keep doing that noisy, yanking chain thingy on my neck? It is so annoying! Why don't you tell me what it is you DO want....actually, forget it. This training is for the birds. I'm thinking we should go for a hike or, hey..what's that over there? Let's go see that. Are we done yet? Got anything to eat?" This way, he's thinking, "Oooooo, I just got a hot dog! Yum. Hmmm, what did I do just now to get that? Oh yeah....catch up with her. Ok, here I come. Is this good? Is this good? Oh, not enough? OK....how 'bout this? Woo hooo, I just got another hot dog and oh my....what's she doing? She's jumping up and down and playing. OMG! another hot dog! Now I know what I'm suppose to be doing. This training is fun. OK....what should I do next? Tell me, tell me, show me. I'm sooooo ready for this. Teach me a new trick! I am so smart to be able to do this. She's so nice to me. Nothing hurts or is scary and I don't get any suprises that I don't understand. This is pure fun." LOL.
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Preaching?
Why not? Are you the new thread regulator? For those of us who want to talk operant conditioning, we're preaching and arguing. For those of you who like to talk about punishment based training, it's..."many ways to train" and sticking to the question. (?)
Here's the question: Here's the answer: The sound of the chain and choke collars give very little meaning in the way of learning what to do to a dog. They only tell the dog that he did something wrong and tell the dog that his owner does weird, unpleasant things to him and if he doesn't watch his step, he's going to get another correction.
Why not? Are you the new thread regulator? For those of us who want to talk operant conditioning, we're preaching and arguing. For those of you who like to talk about punishment based training, it's..."many ways to train" and sticking to the question. (?)
Here's the question: Here's the answer: The sound of the chain and choke collars give very little meaning in the way of learning what to do to a dog. They only tell the dog that he did something wrong and tell the dog that his owner does weird, unpleasant things to him and if he doesn't watch his step, he's going to get another correction.
You don't know what audial means?lol, it IS a real word!
As for check chains, they're just unessecary if you have some basic understanding of animal behaviour. Some people use them EXTREMELY harshly, others use them like just a little whisper, not evening tightening around the throat. Some use it to grab the dogs attention, others use it to basically correct EVERYTHING but the behaviour they want, which is actually extremely funny in terms of claiming motivation and willingness on the dogs part!
Correcting all behaviours that arn't the one you want is so much harder than just showing the dog the behaviour you want it to do! Basically it is a crude tool, not really needed and mostly unused in good training schools. Lately they are even being taken off the shelves in pet stores and being banned from the grounds at training schools.
Also, it is so limited. You can train a dog to do ANYTHING with a clicker, shake, play dead, roll over, say your prayers (hell, my kelpie says HELLO!).
As for check chains, they're just unessecary if you have some basic understanding of animal behaviour. Some people use them EXTREMELY harshly, others use them like just a little whisper, not evening tightening around the throat. Some use it to grab the dogs attention, others use it to basically correct EVERYTHING but the behaviour they want, which is actually extremely funny in terms of claiming motivation and willingness on the dogs part!
Correcting all behaviours that arn't the one you want is so much harder than just showing the dog the behaviour you want it to do! Basically it is a crude tool, not really needed and mostly unused in good training schools. Lately they are even being taken off the shelves in pet stores and being banned from the grounds at training schools.
Also, it is so limited. You can train a dog to do ANYTHING with a clicker, shake, play dead, roll over, say your prayers (hell, my kelpie says HELLO!).
Y
Thank you very much I truely appreciate your image of me. Nice sure makes me trust everything you say, Not. This is not the first time you have bashed me so I guess it is time to add you to my ignore list. Very sad indeed.
Well Yukon has been much better and if he thinks I'm weird then so be it, better than being sued because he bit someone.
Well Yukon has been much better and if he thinks I'm weird then so be it, better than being sued because he bit someone.