Parents sue Petco

Amstaffer

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#81
Julie said:
Oh, How can a "thing" be stupid?? BSLs are nothing more than words on paper, how can that be stupid? I thought only people could be stupid???
Touche! You are right in a literal sense (not in a common speak sense) things can't be stupid, only creatures with measureable IQs that can be compared to others of the same species. Its always good to have a literalist around to keep you honest. :)

Let me rephrase, The people behind BSLs are ignorant and inane, not to mention dangerous and hurtful.
 

Julie

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#82
Amstaffer said:
Touche! You are right in a literal sense (not in a common speak sense) things can't be stupid, only creatures with measureable IQs that can be compared to others of the same species. Its always good to have a literalist around to keep you honest. :)

Let me rephrase, The people behind BSLs are ignorant and inane, not to mention dangerous and hurtful.
Well I think this is a good spot for me to jump from this train.;)

It was very interesting chatting with you.
 

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#83
I lean a bit more to Julie's side in terms of whether animals lack rights, etc. Look at the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

This is an unequivocal statement that rights are imbued in men from God; they are not granted by the government. The government derives its powers from the people, not vice versa.

Also, take a look at the preamble to the U.S. Constitution. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Again, our current constitution (I say "current" because this one replaced a previous one) was created in part "to secure" rights, not create them. I suppose we can have a philosophical and religious debate over whether animals similarly were created with rights by God, but it is not correct to state that individuals have rights because laws create them, at least not in terms of U.S. jurisprudence.

That all being said, this isn't about whether dog rights trump children's rights. It's about whether my rights must yield to the rights of others, including children, and under what circumstances, and to what extent must anyone be held responsible for their own decisions.

Frankly, I am selfish, and want my rights to rule over yours. (I suspect that most people are the same way, whether they admit it or not; I am just honest about it.) Consequently, I want to take my dog where ever I want to, and I don't want to be bothered by other people's children, dirty, clean, or otherwise. I guess its fortunate that I don't get to be the ultimate arbiter of whose rights should prevail. Instead, I have to try to pursuade others to agree with me.

At least on this board, there seems to be a consensus that I should be permitted to take a well adjusted dog with a very kind dispisition out in public. Unfortunately, the realistic truth is that just like with children, not every dog is well mannered, and too many parents of both dogs and children do not do a good job of training and don't have the sense to recognize their own failure. Consequently it is a sad fact that children and dogs alike are sometimes not permitted everywhere we would like to take them.

As a matter of policy, I would hope that the action against Petco is not successful. There are simply not that many places where my dog is permitted to go,a nd I would hate to see one of them disapear. I think, as a matter of law, it is not unreasonable (sorry about the double negative) for Petco to permit dog owners to bring their dogs in. Every reasonable person knows this is permitted. The injured person saw the dog, and thus knew of its presense. Thus, there is some assumption of risk on her part, and on her parents part. In addition, the benefits of this policy vastly outweigh the negatives. Think of all the enjoyment people (and many animals) get out of bringing their pets in compared to the number of incidents that occur.

Now, the owner of the dog that bit this girl is a different situation. We have no information about whether this dog had given prior warning signs of aggresion. If so, the risk of this loss should fall, at least in part on the dog owner.
 

Amstaffer

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#84
PFC1 said:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,".
We hold these truths to be self-evident....which supports my arguement. We believe we have rights so we come up with laws (Constitution with Bill of Rights) to Codify and give ground for enforcement and protection of our rights. So a right is an understanding in a society (some people attribute to a divine being). Here in the United States we decided to be civilized, some rights had to be understood and then enforced by laws. If those rights were truly a "hard fast" and real thing then why didn't Slaves have human rights? Because they didn't have any laws in place to protect them. Society did not have an understanding that they were entitled to rights.

PFC1 said:
This is an unequivocal statement that rights are imbued in men from God; they are not granted by the government. The government derives its powers from the people, not vice versa. ,
Never support an unequivocal statement with a statement about God. God is based on faith and belief not fact. Government is part of and extension of the people not an alien out side force.

PFC1 said:
Also, take a look at the preamble to the U.S. Constitution. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." ,
Again you are helping me make my point...to ensure rights we establish a Constitution (A form a laws). First we have an understand of what we think should be our rights as people and then write laws to protect those understandings.

PFC1 said:
Again, our current constitution (I say "current" because this one replaced a previous one) was created in part "to secure" rights, not create them.
,
I agree but again you are much closer to me on this point.

PFC1 said:
I suppose we can have a philosophical and religious debate over whether animals similarly were created with rights by God, but it is not correct to state that individuals have rights because laws create them, at least not in terms of U.S. jurisprudence.,
I never said laws create rights, we as a society decide on how people should be treated, come to an understanding (nothing taniable yet) and then right laws to protect those understandings.

Basiclly what I have been trying to say is that a "Right" is merely what a culture has decided is a standard treatment of people or animals. It is not something you can hold in your hand but rather an idea. It has to be codified into law before it become enforceable.
 

PFC1

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#85
Although you claim you never said that "laws create rights." But here is what you said earlier.

Amstaffer said:
The Constitution gives us rights in the U.S.A..
This is false. The constitution does not give rights. The constitution explicitly recognizes that those rights were already there.


Amstaffer said:
Never support an unequivocal statement with a statement about God. God is based on faith and belief not fact.
Go back and read my prior post more closely. I think you misunderstood it. I did notmake any unequivocal statement about God. I made a statement about the unequivocal and explicit recognition by the framers of God's creation of rights. This recognition of God in the Declaration by the framers is simply undeniable.

Again, my whole point is that under U.S. jurisprudence, the people start with rights; the laws don't create them. They are intended to protect them, and in some circumstances, limit them, but they don't create them.

Amstaffer said:
It has to be codified into law before it become enforceable.
This last statement is not true. A right need not be codified to be enforceable. Show me where it is codified that you have a right to have the police give Miranda warnings.
 

Amstaffer

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#86
PFC1 said:
This last statement is not true. A right need not be codified to be enforceable. Show me where it is codified that you have a right to have the police give Miranda warnings.
It is codified in the Supreme court decision handed down in 1966. The Majority opinion is written and binding document thus codified.

http://www.thecapras.org/mcapra/miranda/rights.html

PFC1 said:
This is false. The constitution does not give rights. The constitution explicitly recognizes that those rights were already there.
.

Constitution gives us rights in the sense that it makes them possible (standards and enforcement) not in the sense that it creates them. No one or nothing "gives" us rights we as a society collectively agree on them.
 
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#88
i personally dont care about the exact difference between rights and laws. what does it matter if at the end its the written down law that says what you can or can not do, so back to the main subject.


PFC1 said:
At least on this board, there seems to be a consensus that I should be permitted to take a well adjusted dog with a very kind dispisition out in public. Unfortunately, the realistic truth is that just like with children, not every dog is well mannered, and too many parents of both dogs and children do not do a good job of training and don't have the sense to recognize their own failure. Consequently it is a sad fact that children and dogs alike are sometimes not permitted everywhere we would like to take them.

i totally agree that there are too many bad dogowners and parents and i do understand some of the reasons why dogs arent allowed everywhere. but why should all the responsable owners take the blame for a couple of bad ones??

just like a shoplifter dogowners with a dog that misbehaved in a store could get asked to not returned to that store WITH their dog. after all its not much different. just because somebody steals in a store doesnt mean the whole public isnt allowed in the store again so that nobody can ever steal again but its just that one person that gets banned. so why ban every single dog just because one certain one was aggresiv instead of just banning that one?

another thing i just cant understand is: why cant i bring a small dog that i carry ( i know that doesnt help for owners with big dogs but still...)
if i can pick my dog up, if i carry it in my arms the whole time i am in the store.....i mean, what the hell should happen?

it cant mark, pee or poop in the store. it cant attack anybody, it cant chew or destroy anything in the store.

i simply dont understand why at least that isnt allowed.........
 

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#89
Amstaffer said:
It is codified in the Supreme court decision handed down in 1966. The Majority opinion is written and binding document thus codified.

http://www.thecapras.org/mcapra/miranda/rights.html
You are correct that this right was recognized in this U.S. Supreme Court case, but you are incorrect in that they were codified. The term "codified" indicates the creation by statute-- in otherwords, the creating of a legal code. This is not just a matter of semantics. The Supreme Court merely "clarified" or recognized that the pre-existing rights included the right to these type of warnings, the decision did not create the right. Statutes generally operate only going forward.
 

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#90
soft pawz said:
i personally dont care about the exact difference between rights and laws. what does it matter if at the end its the written down law that says what you can or can not do, so back to the main subject.





i totally agree that there are too many bad dogowners and parents and i do understand some of the reasons why dogs arent allowed everywhere. but why should all the responsable owners take the blame for a couple of bad ones??

just like a shoplifter dogowners with a dog that misbehaved in a store could get asked to not returned to that store WITH their dog. after all its not much different. just because somebody steals in a store doesnt mean the whole public isnt allowed in the store again so that nobody can ever steal again but its just that one person that gets banned. so why ban every single dog just because one certain one was aggresiv instead of just banning that one?

another thing i just cant understand is: why cant i bring a small dog that i carry ( i know that doesnt help for owners with big dogs but still...)
if i can pick my dog up, if i carry it in my arms the whole time i am in the store.....i mean, what the hell should happen?

it cant mark, pee or poop in the store. it cant attack anybody, it cant chew or destroy anything in the store.

i simply dont understand why at least that isnt allowed.........
It sure is frustrating, itsn't it. But the reality for some stores is that, in their opinion, it simply costs them too much in terms of policing the policy, and customer relations than they gain. Would you come back to a store that told you that your dog in particular was not welcome? Maybe you would, but others might not. It just seems easier for store managers to simply avoid the problem entirely with a uniform rule. Of course, if you disagree, then open your own store, market it, and let the cash roll in. I would certainly shop there, and tell all my friends to do the same.
 

sparks19

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#91
PFC1 said:
It sure is frustrating, itsn't it. But the reality for some stores is that, in their opinion, it simply costs them too much in terms of policing the policy, and customer relations than they gain. Would you come back to a store that told you that your dog in particular was not welcome? Maybe you would, but others might not. It just seems easier for store managers to simply avoid the problem entirely with a uniform rule. Of course, if you disagree, then open your own store, market it, and let the cash roll in. I would certainly shop there, and tell all my friends to do the same.

how are your ears? :D lol sorry this thread has just gotten so ridiculous I had to throw in some humour :p

Look at the first post and now look at where this thread has gone lol DERAILED

This went from a "look at what happened isn't it sad" thread into a " HAHA I'm right you're wrong thread." I think this thread has far surpassed any real merit and turned into a big chest beating competition
 

Brattina88

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#92
just like a shoplifter dogowners with a dog that misbehaved in a store could get asked to not returned to that store WITH their dog. after all its not much different. just because somebody steals in a store doesnt mean the whole public isnt allowed in the store again so that nobody can ever steal again but its just that one person that gets banned. so why ban every single dog just because one certain one was aggresiv instead of just banning that one?

another thing i just cant understand is: why cant i bring a small dog that i carry ( i know that doesnt help for owners with big dogs but still...)
if i can pick my dog up, if i carry it in my arms the whole time i am in the store.....i mean, what the hell should happen?

it cant mark, pee or poop in the store. it cant attack anybody, it cant chew or destroy anything in the store.

i simply dont understand why at least that isnt allowed.........
I agree, and it is frustrating. Don't you wish something like a CGC title or something similar would allow dogs into certain places? Wishful thinking, I guess.

My brother who was reading over my shoulder added "they could bark" :rolleyes:

[I love your new siggy pics Julie :)]
 

Julie

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#93
Brattina88 said:
I agree, and it is frustrating. Don't you wish something like a CGC title or something similar would allow dogs into certain places? Wishful thinking, I guess.

My brother who was reading over my shoulder added "they could bark" :rolleyes:

[I love your new siggy pics Julie :)]
Thank you, Brattina.:D
 

JennSLK

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#94
The parents say Petco's dog friendly policy is dangerous to children. They say that pets are not allowed in most public places for a reason -- and that's because animals are unpredictable.
So, what I'm not allowed to take my dog out for a walk on a sidewalk? Afterall it's a public place.

I hate to say it but if the dog had been, say a Lab, the wouldnt be as much press. Dont get me wrong I love ALL dogs, I foster pits, so I know there is no such thing as a bad dog. Personally beleive that because i was a "vicous" dog the more press came.

We also dont really know the whole story. Maybe the dog felt threatend by the way the kid positioned herself. Maybe she moved and acidentlity steped/kneeled on the dog's paw and hurt it. God knows I've steped on Emma more than once. Not meaning too of course
 

sparks19

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#95
JennSLK said:
So, what I'm not allowed to take my dog out for a walk on a sidewalk? Afterall it's a public place.

I hate to say it but if the dog had been, say a Lab, the wouldnt be as much press. Dont get me wrong I love ALL dogs, I foster pits, so I know there is no such thing as a bad dog. Personally beleive that because i was a "vicous" dog the more press came.

We also dont really know the whole story. Maybe the dog felt threatend by the way the kid positioned herself. Maybe she moved and acidentlity steped/kneeled on the dog's paw and hurt it. God knows I've steped on Emma more than once. Not meaning too of course

But the point is that it is never appropriate for a dog to bite a child. yes we know that children are over bearing and can get on a dogs nerves and that some parents are morons but in the eyes of society it is never appropriate for a dog to attack a child. Not everyone has the experience we have with dogs and not everyone feels the way we feel about dogs so you can't blame people for causing an uproar because a child was attacked. The problem i see with this story is the parents are obviously just out for the money. If they really wanted something done about the incident they would take the dog owner to court not the store who was an innocent bystander in all this.

Rottie or not, the parents would have still reacted the same way because it is apparent they are out for the cash and have found an excuse to get it.
 

JennSLK

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#96
I never said it was OK for adog to bite a child, I was just trying to state that maybe it was more OK than an unprovoked atack.

I personally think that some people (not kids) deserve to get bi.

There was a story about a teenager who when into a yard to get a ball or something and was atacked by the dog that lived there. Personaly I think he deserved it. You NEVER go into a strange yard with a dog. the dog is just protecting the family. And yes the dog was put down.
 

sparks19

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#97
JennSLK said:
I never said it was OK for adog to bite a child, I was just trying to state that maybe it was more OK than an unprovoked atack.

I personally think that some people (not kids) deserve to get bi.

There was a story about a teenager who when into a yard to get a ball or something and was atacked by the dog that lived there. Personaly I think he deserved it. You NEVER go into a strange yard with a dog. the dog is just protecting the family. And yes the dog was put down.
I agree with you but I am just saying in "society's" eyes its never ok. They are under the impression that every dog should use its teeth for eating and NEVER for biting. I think there are exceptions to every rule. But like I said either way those parents didn't care all they see are the $$$ signs
 
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Dobiegurl

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#98
Its a shame that poor little girl had to pay for her parents irresponsiblity. We have no idea why the dog snapped and may have never shown aggression in his life but something triggered this dog to attacked. This could have been the sweetest dog in the world but something happened that he didn't like and felt the need to attack. I don't know the whole situation but I have a feeling that this attack was spontaneaus and not reoccurring. If it was a first time thing them I do not blame the owner because he had no reason to believe his dog was agressive. Any dog has the ability to become aggressive at any point in their lives.
It's totally the parents fault for letting their child run up to a dog. They don't mind their child running up to unfamiliar dogs but once the child is bit they are the first ones ready to sue. Thats why when I am at the store no one pets my dog. When I see kids running up I stop them and turn them down. I rufuse to put my dog in a situation where he feels uncomfortable and decides to bite someone one day. He is very well socialized but you never know something can trigger him to attack and I refuse to let that happen. People get mad all the time because they can't touch my dog well you know what, thats too bad. Because if my dog bit them they would sue me and my baby would be put down. And I REFUSE to bring any harm to Chico!!!
 
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Dobiegurl

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#99
JennSLK said:
I personally think that some people (not kids) deserve to get bi.

QUOTE]

I totally agree. Some kids too need to be biten. These 9, 10 year olds know better than to touch an unfamiliar dog but still do it. There is a consequence for everything you do in life. I knew since I was three not to touch a dog that wasn't mine. I used to live next to "thugs" with pitts and I learned the hard way no to mess with a dog. But from the experience I had, I can tell you that I've learned my lesson. Some kids need to learn the hard way.

By the way I'm new at this, I was just wondering how do you quote a little piece of someone else's reply.
 

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Forget animals being unpredictable what about children, I have four small ones and they are more unpredictable than my well trained labby was. My children love to go to the pet store and I think it is a great place to foster a love of all things furry, feathery, and finned, but it also is a place to go with caution. I always ask the adult in charge of the dog if my children want to pet it and get an assurance that the dog is kid friendly - as opposed to just friendly and my children also know to let any strange animal sniff the back of their hand before attempting to pet. Unfortunately not all people are dog owners, so they don't know doggy etiquette. (sp??)
 

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