Ok, so do you train with or without treats? I'm confused... Need opinions..

[adojrts]

I really think it all boils down to those who try hard to understand their dogs and use the things that bring a high level of motivation to their dogs (based on that particular dog), and those who prefer that a dog do it "just because they're told to" without any concern for the attitude of the dog.

I'm not against a correction, but I'm against basing all of training on the concept of correction with just praise as the motivating factor (which I feel happens when people depend on the use of a corrective collar throughout their training - an occasional use on a really tough dog is not necessarily bad).

It kind of boggles the mind that anyone, in this day and age, would be against positive reinforcement training - something that is so basic and has been proven to work so effectively. I could easily train my dogs with force and no reward except for praise (I did it for years). But the reality is that you get stronger, longer-lasting behaviors when the dogs have been highly reinforced for them. I know - I've seen the difference and will never go back to the neanderthal methods of correction/praise only. Refusal to acknowledge how various rewards work - including treats - is blatant proof of a lack of understanding of dog behavior.

On the "titles mean nothing" comment .. *LOL* .. I hear that from people who haven't managed to earn much in the way of titles. To take a dog out into a strange place, where there are hundreds of other dogs milling about and tons of strange people, expect them to work off-leash, expect them to avoid the temptations around them with people giving treats to their dogs, throwing toys, females in heat, etc., expect them to hold a stay in a line-up of strange dogs with dogs on either side just a few feet away - these are MUCH more demanding requirements than most dogs get at any time during their life with a person. Only someone who has never been there or never managed to earn titles would fail to realize the accomplishment. Making it sound like titles are useless is just a petty attempt to cover your own inadequacies.

And this is where I should mention the old adage of why "little" men get big trucks, hmmm? *LOL*

My bad!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

BRAVO!!!!!!!!! :hail: WELL SAID............obviously I agree, got to run, have to continue tug training with my new pup!! Petie needs a run too........

 

[MelissaCato]

Well, I burrowed a video from the library on dog training, and the guy said, all you need is your voice for training. And the dog of course. And three tones of voice also.

Command
Correction
Praise

Thats it. So which do you guys think is better, treats for training, or praise? I'm confused. Because there are soo many different ways. Thank you for reading!

I find you don't need treats to train a dog. I find you don't need treats to motivate a dog. Treats will not stop a high drive dog, period. If you care to know what I think. Once a dog is pumped they have focus on a high... they could care less about treats. IMO.
I can only assume treats are for lower drive dogs, either way I've never used treats for sports or endurance regardless of drive. As high as my current dogs get working/training, treats would harm them. They get milk/water breaks and that's it.

On the flipside, now that I'm trying to stack and make my dogs stand still either for pictures or at a local dog clinic ... I find treats keep them standing still. As long as I don't give them too many I noticed if I give them to many the more it doesn't work. So, I try to keep one treat in my hand as long as I can for one dog and everything goes good for the most part.

I use my voice to train. Command, Correction, Praise. My 9 year old son can control all our dogs on high with his voice. That was my goal.

JMO.

 

[Purdue#1]

good post melissa. Mickey has very low drive and when we tried treats with her a few days after we got her she could care less, but we don't use treats at all now. its not needed.

your dogs look sooooo awesome! i love the pic of your son holding all 3 together. you have a very handsome son and he is in control of 3 very driven breeds. kudos!

 

[MelissaCato]

Thanks Purdue... I like your siggy!

 

[Purdue#1]

thanks. its sooo beautiful.

 

[Dekka]

Hehe I love your siggy, makes me think of people in fetish gear. (whips and chains etc etc) Thanx for the smile

No one is saying punishment training doesn't work. Just saying it doesn't work as well. Some people don't wish to suppress. Yes Melissa and Purdue, we know you really enjoy suppression. That is fine. BUT it is not the most effective way to train. Yes it takes the least effort on the owner (or person in black leather fetish gear ) to train using corrections. But I want snappy behaviours that can happen at a distance in distracting environments (with no correction or rewards in sight)

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I find you don't need treats to train a dog. I find you don't need treats to motivate a dog. Treats will not stop a high drive dog, period. If you care to know what I think. Once a dog is pumped they have focus on a high... they could care less about treats. IMO.
I can only assume treats are for lower drive dogs, either way I've never used treats for sports or endurance regardless of drive. As high as my current dogs get working/training, treats would harm them. They get milk/water breaks and that's it.

On the flipside, now that I'm trying to stack and make my dogs stand still either for pictures or at a local dog clinic ... I find treats keep them standing still. As long as I don't give them too many I noticed if I give them to many the more it doesn't work. So, I try to keep one treat in my hand as long as I can for one dog and everything goes good for the most part.

I use my voice to train. Command, Correction, Praise. My 9 year old son can control all our dogs on high with his voice. That was my goal.

JMO.

Stepping away from the Purdue/MelissaCato mutual admiration society for a second .. *chuckles*

So what do you do to build drive in your dogs? How do you get them "pumped"? Is it excitement of a chase? Holding them back while someone runs away? A tease with a toy, perhaps? Or has your training ONLY been with your voice, and no other motivational techniques? How does your voice get them pumped? Is it fear-based? How could treats "HARM" your dogs?

The point is (perhaps deliberately) being missed here. All dogs have things that motivate them, and a highly motivated dog is overall a better performer than a non-motivated dog. The use of treats is only ONE means of building enthusiasm. Maybe they're not the best way for your dog. My shepherds have high toy drive and chasing a stick or a ball is a huge reinforcement to them. But that doesn't mean that saying that "you don't need treats to motivate a dog" is valid - that shows a very narrow-minded training philosophy.

I find it very interesting that you, too, seem to fail to differentiate between behaviors. You use a treat to teach a stand-stay (a very basic behavior) because you can't work the dog in drive for that, but don't seem to understand that the premise of reinforcement is the same regardless. A behavior is a behavior - we just have to know how to reward our dogs in a way that they enjoy. If treats work for your dogs in a stand-stay, then that tells me that treats are an effective reward for your dog and it's your inability to be versatile as a trainer that makes you think that treats are not a valid method of reinforcement. In all honesty, you contradict yourself in a huge way in your post. You start off saying you don't need treats, and then later say you use treats to stack your dogs.

It's easy to teach a high-drive dog. They're a piece of cake compared to a dog that is not easily motivated. My working line shepherds are extremely energetic and driven and it's really easy to channel that into the behaviors I want. I can use toys, or playing with them (Trick likes me to pound on her sides), or throwing a twig and they're enthusiastic and happy. My chows, on the other hand, don't respond to that sort of thing. You have to be an extemely versatile trainer to get the best out of dogs like that. You have to think outside of the box and not fool yourself into thinking that they live to please you. If treats are what works, then a savvy trainer uses treats as a reinforcement.

Adaptation to the dog's needs are the signs of a good trainer. When I look at a trainer, especially if I plan to go to a seminar, I want to see that they work with dogs other than working-style dogs. I want to know that they have experience and techniques that will benefit all dogs and not just those that are easy to train. I want them to show that they realize that not all dogs are driven in the same manner. People who primarily train working dogs don't always grasp this concept.

I really suggest that those of you who are so against the use of treats JUST because they're treats should avoid getting dogs that are a challenge to train. It would really show you how little you know about dog behavior. And heaven forbid you be disappointed in your own abilities.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Purdue#1]

several weeks ago i had to help with a kids' pedal pull. put sly on a down-stay and went to help my friend move the tractor back to the line. a boy was there with a small pumkin and was waving it around sly's face. he was watching intently. the boy kept acting like he threw it. he was watching and looking, but never broke. that was a good distraction for a few minutes, then i moved him behind a hay bale out of the kids view. i even took off his leash and just had his tab on and worked him with just that on. my friends were amazed and other people were amazed. he even rode shotgun on a wagon with draft horses in front of him. ears perked up. acted like he was on top of the world.

 

[showdawgz]

Just give it up already. Everyone says the same things over and over and over again. We all know how our opinions differ, just respect it and move on. Everyone has different methods that WORK, and no one can judge what works better, we dont know how each others dogs "perform".