Need help on deciding between Retrievers

[Renee750il]

One focus that's been lost is that it's not the DOG some of us have a problem with, it's the greedy, unethical and amoral breeders who are focused on making a tidy profit on selling gimmicks.

The Doodle was originally, to the best of my knowledge, not intended to be a novelty, but was a sincere effort to come up with a dog that would fill a certain niche in the service dog arena. It didn't work, but a few people with a flair for marketing latched on to the idea and have been making quite a bit of money from it! The genetics didn't work out as planned, but the concept did provide a fertile "breeding ground" for a marketing bonanza.

The real reason so many people hate to see anyone hand big prices over to Doodle breeders is because they just shouldn't be encouraged. The only justification for that kind of price tag on a dog is the expense and effort that's been put into obtaining and screening the best-temperament, healthiest, most flawless sire and dam possible and doing all of the expensive health checks and screenings necessary to bring the healthiest pups possible into the world. If you don't get proof of those kinds of assurances you shouldn't be paying that much for a pup.

 

[Sunnypup]

nevermind. was gonna post but decided not to.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I hate to play devils advocate but seriously, do you think that EVERY shelter is going to hand over that info. I have owned 2 shelter dogs in my life and BOTH were neurotic, had seperation anxiety, were NOT house broken as the shelter lead me to believe and did not respond terribly well to training. They rarely actually know what breed of dog you are getting, unless the previous owner said spacifically that the mom was a border collie and dad was a boxer. They give their best guess. Shelters try but it is really a roll of the dice with what you will end up with. This is true with all dogs but mostly so with older shelter dogs. Also, as far as "adoption" is concerned some breed spacific rescues can cost more in "adoption fees" then you can pay just going to a breeder for pity's sake. I'm not saying never adopt but maybe for your first dog research a good breeder and buy a pup from them. Atleast then you have a clean slate to work with. If you don't care at all what size or type of dog you are adopting, sure adopt from a shelter, but if you know you want a medium sized dog with long hair then research exact breeds with those traits. I LOVE goldens. They are great dogs, but they do have heart/ cancer histories that are devestating, so look for one that is hip, eye, and heart certified and no family history of cancer. I am a big fan of aussies, but they are VERY active and I'm having trouble keeping my pup occupied since I am down with a bum hip.(long story) I think labradoodles are cute and there is the point that almost every dog breed (I'd say 99.9%) are "mixed" breeds at some point in history, but check out the breeder, and if you can, where they house the dogs, what kind of food they provide, how well behaved mom and dad are and all of that. That would go for any dog for that matter. Beagles are another personal favorite of mine, sweet little guys but again, they do need some room to run since they are traditionally hunting dogs, and they can yodle with the best of them. Anyway, good luck, and post pics when you do find your baby.

I never said all shelters know the past of the dog. But in my experience, they do. The shelter knew the past of Colby and she has turned into a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful dog. Puppy mill and sometimes byb dogs have very bad pasts. PM pups often have "cage fury" (also called "cage rage") where they run in circles to relieve boredom.

 

[Renee750il]

You make some good points, Sunny (missed you, by the way!). Those are exactly the reasons I usually recommend that someone getting a first - or nearly first - dog focus on finding a shelter dog that isn't a puppy. You can get a much better idea of the dog's temperament and possible hang-ups that way, plus you know exactly how big it's going to get and the type of physical characteristics and energy levels you're going to be dealing with.

The same goes for a breed rescue - check out the adult dogs!

 

[Sunnypup]

You make some good points, Sunny (missed you, by the way!). Those are exactly the reasons I usually recommend that someone getting a first - or nearly first - dog focus on finding a shelter dog that isn't a puppy. You can get a much better idea of the dog's temperament and possible hang-ups that way, plus you know exactly how big it's going to get and the type of physical characteristics and energy levels you're going to be dealing with.

The same goes for a breed rescue - check out the adult dogs!

Thanks renee. I unfortunatly had a bad time with my two OLDER rescues so I'm hoping that a puppy rescue might be a better idea for us. I know there are awesome older dogs out there that need a home and I would never tell anyone to not consider adoption but there is something to be said about having a little baby pup that looks up to you like you are "mom". I look at it this way, one way or another these dogs need homes, whether you adopt them from a shelter, a petstore, or a reputable breeder they still need homes. I won't ever buy from a petstore, and I know my breeder is a good one, but for those people who do fall into those traps, I don't think we should make them feel bad, just teach them better and help them out with their puppy questions. Just my little ol' opinion.

 

[Rose's Gal]

*sigh* I'm making one last post about the "shelter mutts vs. Breeder mutts" and then I'm out of here. I'm tired of making all of these points, and then having them fall on deaf ears after he has asked for help.
If you want advice, listen to it. See all sides of the argument. If you disagree with the advice, don't run them down because you asked for their opinion. If you disagree and you make flat statments after everything that they are trying to tell you is true, I'm sorry for your ignorance.

Now. Let's just say you go into a store to buy your favorite cookie. You walk down the isle, and your favortie cookies are on the two sides, clear to the other end.
On the right side, the cookies are a little bit cheaper and a sign above the cookies says, "All procedes will go to the homeless in Africa." On the left side, the cookies are really expensive and a sign says about them, "All procedes will go to help the terrorists." Both of the cookies are of the same quality. Which would you rather buy from? The right side, or the left side?

Let me explain. The cookies on the right side are like the Shelter Lab/Poodle mixes. When you adopt one, you are helping to save a life and your money goes to help the homeless dogs.
The cookies on the left side are like the mutts from breeders. When you buy a mutt from a breeder, you are incouraging the "terrorists" of the dog world. In other words, BYbreeding, and Puppymills.
Even if you will give your dog a good home, maybe somebody down the line won't. And the reason that breeder will still have puppies to churn out, is because people keep buying from them. And since people keep buying from them, more homeless mutts that aren't lucky enough to be bred by a "breeder" and that aren't lucky enough to have a cutsie name, are going to die.
It is your choice. I really wish you would have considered the Portegeuse Water Dog, but I guess you want a mutt and I guess you want to pay 2,000$ for it while others die.

I'm done with this converstation. And I'm sorry that you are ignoring all of the proven facts that we have given you, and you are just brushing off those facts by callling us ignorant. Not by bringing up facts of your own.

 

[Renee750il]

I think your "lil ol' opinion" is a good one, Sunny

Sunny is a marvel, too. And you've got to take into account that with the all those kids you care for, Sunny's got a harder job than most pups!

 

[Fran27]

I totally agree Sunny. The only reason I always remind people of shelters and rescues is because even if they want a puppy, there are often puppies there too. I didn't care much between an adult and a puppy for my second one, it just happens that Tips caught my eye and the rescue replied very fast. Otherwise I would have tried an older border collie, who was my second choice. Don't you wish you could take them all sometimes though

 

[Rose's Gal]

I look at it this way, one way or another these dogs need homes, whether you adopt them from a shelter, a petstore, or a reputable breeder they still need homes. I won't ever buy from a petstore, and I know my breeder is a good one, but for those people who do fall into those traps, I don't think we should make them feel bad, just teach them better and help them out with their puppy questions. Just my little ol' opinion.

That is true. But it is because people buy from the Petstores and the BYBs that more and more dogs need homes. And I do agree with helping people that fall into those traps if they didn't know. But when somebody gets one from an irrisponsible place and they know full well what they did, that is something I can't tolorate.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

*sigh* I'm making one last post about the "shelter mutts vs. Breeder mutts" and then I'm out of here. I'm tired of making all of these points, and then having them fall on deaf ears after he has asked for help.
If you want advice, listen to it. See all sides of the argument. If you disagree with the advice, don't run them down because you asked for their opinion. If you disagree and you make flat statments after everything that they are trying to tell you is true, I'm sorry for your ignorance.

Now. Let's just say you go into a store to buy your favorite cookie. You walk down the isle, and your favortie cookies are on the two sides, clear to the other end.
On the right side, the cookies are a little bit cheaper and a sign above the cookies says, "All procedes will go to the homeless in Africa." On the left side, the cookies are really expensive and a sign says about them, "All procedes will go to help the terrorists." Both of the cookies are of the same quality. Which would you rather buy from? The right side, or the left side?

Let me explain. The cookies on the right side are like the Shelter Lab/Poodle mixes. When you adopt one, you are helping to save a life and your money goes to help the homeless dogs.
The cookies on the left side are like the mutts from breeders. When you buy a mutt from a breeder, you are incouraging the "terrorists" of the dog world. In other words, BYbreeding, and Puppymills.
Even if you will give your dog a good home, maybe somebody down the line won't. And the reason that breeder will still have puppies to churn out, is because people keep buying from them. And since people keep buying from them, more homeless mutts that aren't lucky enough to be bred by a "breeder" and that aren't lucky enough to have a cutsie name, are going to die.
It is your choice. I really wish you would have considered the Portegeuse Water Dog, but I guess you want a mutt and I guess you want to pay 2,000$ for it while others die.

I'm done with this converstation. And I'm sorry that you are ignoring all of the proven facts that we have given you, and you are just brushing off those facts by callling us ignorant. Not by bringing up facts of your own.

That is true. But it is because people buy from the Petstores and the BYBs that more and more dogs need homes. And I do agree with helping people that fall into those traps if they didn't know. But when somebody gets one from an irrisponsible place and they know full well what they did, that is something I can't tolorate.

I agree completely.

 

[aurorab]

Jason- I really hope that you continue w/ this site and again I'm sorry that you didn't get the kind of info that you were hoping for but think of it this way you may have set a record here 23 PAGES! WOW
Actually I did want to add something. I have seem several doodles and some were 1st generation and some were 2nd or third. I can tell you that after the 1st generation they were different. That could be good or bad. Some of the 1st gen took after one one of the parents (was more similar to 1 breed or the other). Some that had 2nd or 3rd gen also had this problem. I guess that since it is still so new they have not been able to completely breed a true combination. But I can tell you that everyone that had one loved it!
As for the rescue/ pound puppies, I work w/ a rescue and personally I love rescues and mutts, but I can also understand that some people like pure breed and yes I agree that even a "pure breed" is a mix- but shhh don't tell them that, they are very sensative to this subject. (trying to lighten the mood!)
Even though we have 2 rescues and yess they are mixes and we foster and rescue dogs we are going to get a pure breed dog from a breeder. (sorry I blurring the lines btwn the pure breeder and the rescue types) anyway my husband want a reverse brindle boxer. 1. they don't have them in rescues, 2. it's what he wants
My opinion (take it or leave it, your choice) do what ever you want. Pick they type of dog that fits best and makes you happy. You seem to have leaned toward a doodle b/c of a doodle that you know and that's great. 1st hand experience is the best. From what you have said in the past posts a golden doodle seems like a perfect compromise btwn you and your wife. You seem to have done a lot of research yourself and I think you already have all the information you need and you really don't need anyone else's opinion on this... I know you really just wanted info not all these opinions anyway but people have opinions and as it seems strong ones at that. Like I said you have everything that you need to make your decision, take some time, talk about it and let us know when the little one arrives.
GOOD LUCK!!

 

[sparks19]

I honestly don't see anyone putting in any constructive criticism for Jason. All i see is everyone making Jason feel like crap becasue HE doesn't want a dog from a shelter this time. That doesn't make him a bad person. Shame on all of you for treating anyone the way you have. as for "fighting for what you believe in" thats super but LAY OFF. Just because you feel one way does not mean EVERYONE has to feel the same way. He asked for personal experiences not to be personally attacked by all of you.

I also want to comment on how everyone says every dog deserves to be loved. That is so true but why do those doodles not deserve the chance to be loved just because they are from an irresponsible breeder. I was going to get a puppy from the "paws" animal shelter here until i found out that they were going to neuter my puppy at 8 weeks of age. you are telling me that THAT is a responsible practice? seriously? My dog came from a family who's dog found herself a little b/f and got pregnant. It wasn't planned and I'm sure those people aren't "breeders" but that dog deserved a good home just as much as ANY dog deserves a good home including those labradoodles. If no one buys those dogs do you know where they will end up? In the shelter. Do you know how many of them will find homes? Probably not many of them. Half of your dogs probably came from irresponsible breeders and ended up at the shelter because no one wanted to pay that kind of money for a mutt. Well My dog is a mutt and there is no amount i wouldn't pay for him because I love him. If someone is running a puppy mill then they should be reported to the police.

Jason I would recommend that you make a visit to a breeder for each type of dog you are looking for. ask questions spend time with the puppies. You will find one that stands out to you and THAT will be the puppy you take home and love for years to come. I don't care where that puppy comes from as long as he/she ends up with a good home in the end that is all that matters to me. I had four puppies to choose from but I knew which one i was going to take as soon as I laid eyes on him. Just remember that no matter who your puppy comes from make sure you take it for a vet check up A.S.A.P because you never know. I hope you find your perfect pup.

 

[Fran27]

Well Sparks you didn't read the posts. Most of them are not at all about shelter vs breed dog or whatever, but about most labradoodle breeders. Really, shame on us for warning him that the breeder his neighbor got his dog from isn't really a responsible breeder that cares for his dogs as they should, and that he has to be careful where he gets his puppy from

That's what he reacted badly to as well. No matter how many arguments we gave about lots of labradoodles breeders being in for the money, he just ignored us.

Also, I'm not at all for neutering dogs at 8 weeks, but if it's what it takes to make sure that the future owners won't breed them, why not? It seems much more responsible to me than letting dogs go to people who might breed them later, or have one of those accidental pregnancy you mention!

Also, I agree that all dogs need a home, but I'm against encouraging people who are just in for the money, and even less giving them some of mine. It's because of all those people who buy those mixes that they keep breeding and that more dogs die everyday in shelters. That is a fact.

 

[Rose's Gal]

I also want to comment on how everyone says every dog deserves to be loved. That is so true but why do those doodles not deserve the chance to be loved just because they are from an irresponsible breeder.

*sigh* How many times to I have to type this out? Just getting a little bit frusterated!
All dogs deserve to be loved. But when you buy a dog from an irisponsible breeder, you are helping continue the un-ethical practice!
How about this quote from a book (Your Pure Bred Puppy: A Buyer's Guide):

You may feel compelled to rescue a Petshop puppy. That is understandable: Everyone feels sorry for them. But your good intentions will backfire, because you are feeding the industry by rewarding it with money. You've emptied one cage, which creates demand for yet another litter to be produced to fill it. Even if your puppy turns out ok, a large percentage of others will not. And your purchase contributes to
*The misery of females who spend their lives in a cage, being bred agian and again
*The misery of future puppies being born with health and temperament problems
*The misery of future families trying to cope with these health and temperament problems
*The misery of animal rescue groups as they have to deal with the myraid of pet shope puppies dumped on their doorstep because the families gave up on the health and temperament problems

And I don't care that Jason doesn't want to adopt from a shelter. What I do care about is that if he gets a mutt from a breeder, he is feeding the BYB and PuppyMill industry. I'm all for buying from a breeder if it is properly done.

 

[stirder]

I would like to ask (beg) everyone to please read all of the posts before taking jasons side or forming an opinion about how or why we are not on his side here. we have suggested that he look for a shelter dog if his heart is set on a labradoodle type dog. we have also suggested other breeds, and given our opinions on the breeders he asked us to look at. the only person who has gotten irrate is jason. if he didnt want to hear bad opinions on labradoodles and their breeders then he should have either not asked for opinions, or he should have asked that only those in favor of the idea respond.
all we have done on this thread is respond to his questions, and offer our advice WHICH HE ASKED FOR!!! beyond that we have only tried to defend our opinions and facts by explaining them when he was obviously confused.
and no one is telling him not to get a labradoodle at all. we merely informed him that (the reason he wanted one is because his wife wants a golden, but he wants less shedding) atleast 50% of labradoodles shed as much as the lab that is in them, 50% of goldendoodles shed as much as the golden in them, and that of all the labradoodle breeders we have researched (mostly links to breeders site HE provided us) seem extremely irresponsible.
if he doesnt like that, too bad. if he disagrees, fine, but he shouldnt have gotten angry for that unless he had proof otherwise, which by the way he admitted several times he doesnt have. oh, actually he does have proof to the contrary...his neighbor has a labradoodle that doesnt shed. first off, thats one labradoodle, 50% shed a lot, we didnt say he couldnt find one example. second, I bet anything he doesnt brush the dog everyday and vacuum their house. when hes around it it doesnt shed, yay!!! I gues no labradoodle ever sheds. I have talked to a lot of people who claim their dog doesnt shed, but look in the trash can in the garage as you walk past and you may think they threw away an entire dog.
if you want to take jasons side, great, god knows he needs someone on his side, but PLEASE take his side based on facts, dont read the last page and think you understand the whole conversation. by doing that you are being as ignorant and assinine (not a cuss word) as jason is.

 

[aurorab]

Advice and your opinion are 2 totally different things. Advice would be goldens shed a lot is you want a dog that doesn't shed as much then you might want to take this one off of your list. Telling him that a labradoodle is a mutt and he is only perpetuating the problem by buying one and not getting a rescue is your opinion.
I don't know about sparks19 but it just seems like all you are trying to do is yell at jason and tell him that he is wrong for liking doodles, even if you say that it is his choice.
I don't think he necessarily want you to agree w/ him but after so many pages of telling him that he is wrong is beyond what he was looking for.
Fine you said that you think that doodles shes as much as goldens ok it was said on done, but you have gone way beyond just stating the facts.
And yes I have read every single post and more than once. I can totally understand why jason has gotten upset. Give him the facts and let him make the decision. If he does the research and he feels comfortable w/ the breeder than that's that. end of story. you might not agree w/ it (or anyone else) but it is still his choice.
All we were trying to say is let up a bit, don't jump down his throat. Give him the info and be done w/ it.

 

[stirder]

aurorab, read the entire thread. we didnt say dont get a labradoodle, if you get one you perpetuate irresponsible breeding. we reviewed the breeders he asked us too, and a few of our own, and informed him that none of them seemed responsible. that if he baught from an irresponsible breeder he would be perpetuating irresponsible breeding.
if you would actually read the ENTIRE thread you would maybe realize that no one attacked him at all untill he started attacking us for answering his questions, giving him advice based on both his info and our own, and giving him our opinions which HE ASKED FOR!!!

 

[Fran27]

Like Stirder says... Also, he asked for feedback about labradoodles, well we gave him some, including that lots of them still shed, and he said it was false and we're full of ourselves. Please don't generalize too, all of us didn't tell him to get a mutt from a shelter instead, but to buy from a responsible breeder, and he still jumped at our throats too.

Whatever...

 

[stirder]

a few of us mentioned rescue, because he could find a very similar dog there. but no one attacked him for not going to a rescue. no matter how you feel, read the posts, all the posts, before taking EITHER side. and if you are going to say that we said such and such and attacked him by suggesting such and such...quote it from the thread where it was said, and dont quote out of context or we will make you feel stupid by re quoting it.
thank you

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=charlize-theron-pupply-mill