Okie Dokie:
Koolies are a merle breed. Right, wrong, good, bad it is what it is. If every single breeder stopped breeding merle to merle right now you would see some serious outcrossing to other breeds happening because there just aren't enough solids. There is no way to keep this breed as it is, healthy, diverse and unique if merle to merle was to come to a halt today. It would be devastating to the breed and you would loose so much genetic diversity and great lines of dogs. And that is not worth it in my opinion.
But regardless that isn't going to happen and that's the reality of it. Most breeders breed merle to merle on a frequent if not always basis. As I said, solids are slowly being incorporated into breeding programs and being used but it's not a fast process and you still aren't going to find many breeders that won't breed merle to merle if the right merle fits another merle. Take it or leave it, that is how it is.
Do they get deaf and blind puppies? Yep. But, it doesn't happen as often or at as high of rate as you see in a lot of the other breeds that haven't been bred like them for as many years as they have been bred. To be honest, I would lay down money that you see deafness much less often in them than you do in some none merle breeds such as Dalmatians.
So you don't want to get a dog from a breeder that breeds merle to merle? Well then don't get a Koolie. Or be prepared to be limited to one or two breeders or catch one of the others when they happen to be breeding their one solid. It's not ideal, and I wish it wasn't like that. But it is and I will NOT look down on breeders who do it when they have more years of experience breeding Koolies than I have been alive.
And now I'm quoting what I said in the other thread
Ok, so since Koolies have been brought up multiple times now I'll give what info I have.
First off they are considered a merle breed and have been thought of like that for pretty much ever. They also look very similar to Kelpies so it's my understanding that many people considered solids to be Kelpies (or throw backs) and the merles real Koolies.
Something that needs to be understood is that the founders in this breed and many of the breeders to this day are not people educated in genetics. They have bucket loads of common sense and experience but not any scientific learning. Because of that things were assumed, like the fact that if it wasn't merle it wasn't a Koolie. And it's hard when you have a ranch and want to breed your Koolie to another and Tom over there says "I have Koolies!" but it's a solid black that looks like the Kelpie that likes to roam around from Tims farm.
Yes, we all know that you can get a merle even if Tim's Kelpie got to Toms merle Koolie. But it was just the way it worked. Merle=Koolie Solid=Not Koolie.
Now, because of this they worked with the merle to merle rather than just not do it. Merle dogs that produced a lot of high whites were not bred, dogs that produced a lot of nicely marked dogs that could hear and see fine where bred more. Blind or deaf? They were culled. Dogs with more solid patches and less white showed to produce less issues so they were bred more.
When you have a breed that's bred like that for generations upon generations, working away from defects while still breeding merle to merle I think it does make a difference. The chance of getting a double merle doesn't change but the consequences do because they have been bred away from producing dogs with defects.
I also think cryptic merles or very very minimally merled merles become much more common which seems to lead to dogs with good pigment that produce nicely colored double merles. I would be super curious to see if a lot of the solids came up genetically as actually solids honestly.
In addition I think they have an edge, much like Catahoula's because they are not bred for a lot of white in Irish Trim markings. I really think those Irish trims, with the white all around the head and neck really really add to the occurrence of blind and deafness in double merles.
And honestly, at the end of the day these ranchers and breeders aren't going to not breed their best worker with their other best worker because both are merle and try to find a solid that matches their dog when those are not anywhere near as common in the breed.
Times are changing and solids are slowly being brought into a lot of breeders stock but it's still one solid for every ten merles and that makes merle to merle a reality in the breed.
ETA: Koolies don't have a small population, they just are a mostly merle population.
There is a certain part of me, from a scientific standpoint, that would find it interesting to try and do just what other breeds have done and develop a way where it's not nearly as high risk to breed merle x merle. But the moral part of me acknowledges that it's not necessary therefore can't really find a good reason to do it.
Me too. I wish you could get all the Koolie breeders to test their stock to see how many solids are merle and how many
Koolies I can't really comment, but it is a genetic impossibility that merle to merle won't produce double merle puppies.
A: No one, on this forum at least, has stated that you can never get double merles in Koolies while breeding merle to merle. Though you are wrong that it's a genetic impossibility to not get double merles in a merle to merle breeding. A 1/4 chance is just that, 1/4.
Sometimes I do hear people (not on here) say that Koolies don't produce double merles. But I believe that has more to do with not understanding genetics and hearing others who also don't understand how it works falsely saying that all double merles are blind and deaf. So you have people who have a double merle that can see and hear convinced their dog must not be a double merle.
What do breeders usually do with double merles? I imagine all of the old school breeders cull them, is that still done or are they sold as pets?
In Koolies more times than not if they can't hear or see they will be culled. If they can see and hear then they're just sold like any other dog
Its a 1/4 chance of being heavily crippled. That would be 1 or 2 out of every breeding on average.
No. There is a 1/4 chance of being double merle and double merle does not equal blind and/or deaf.
Don Abney's website compiled a bunch of interesting research about merle in catahoulas.
http://www.donabney.com/issue_merle.php
Apparently the combination of the genes for piebald markings (irish markings) and double merle greatly increases the chances of deafness/eye problems.
Most catahoulas don't carry the gene for piebald markings. Interestingly, he also says that a lot of solid colored dogs used in breedings test out as carriers of merle even though they don't show it, and many merle and even some solid colored dogs tested out as double merles. So obviously they've got some other modifiers modifying the merle.
I didn't know Abney had that on his site, nice to see my musings have some validity to them. I've long thought the Irish Markings are one of the big issues in merle to merle and deaf/blindness.
I so would love for some of the long established Koolie kennels to be tested to see what all they are.
^^^Exactly, a Merle, is a merle, is a merle.
Doesn't matter what breed, you will always have the chance at producing a dog just like that one eventually, no matter what. AGAIN, I point to none other than, the Harlequin Pincher project, look how great that ended
.
Actually, it does matter the breed. You still have a chance but I truly believe not the same percent of chance. And so yes, using a dog of unknown heritage and breeding to make your point DOES matter in this case. And the thing is, no one is denying it doesn't happen, just that the frequency is less.