"Mine" and "fight" address the specific issues of resource guarding and aggression not at all the same content as CC. I think "the power of positive dog training" is a fabulous book too. Still not CC in my mind, but if it works for you fantastic. I love Pat Miller.
Holy smokes Jason, you're quite a keener
Holy smokes Jason, you're quite a keener
I think she was just using shorthand to refer to "Culture Clash."
As for the Stanley Coren books- they're absolutely fascinating. I have everything he's written. Not really training books, but they do manage to debunk a lot of long-held misconceptions about dogs, things that we take for granted as being true. "How to Speak Dog" is one of those books that will make everyone around you run and hide, because they KNOW you're going to want to read "just one more quote" to them.
As for the Stanley Coren books- they're absolutely fascinating. I have everything he's written. Not really training books, but they do manage to debunk a lot of long-held misconceptions about dogs, things that we take for granted as being true. "How to Speak Dog" is one of those books that will make everyone around you run and hide, because they KNOW you're going to want to read "just one more quote" to them.
Thanks TT, guess I'm a bit dense. It is a bit late for me however.
I'm curious about how well these work with Shibas. Of all the spitz breeds, save maybe the Pomeranian, I've heard the Shiba is the most difficult to train and are given to bolting off leash. I've only seen a pair owned by my sister's friend; they were complete scene stealers.
I'm curious about how well these work with Shibas. Of all the spitz breeds, save maybe the Pomeranian, I've heard the Shiba is the most difficult to train and are given to bolting off leash. I've only seen a pair owned by my sister's friend; they were complete scene stealers.
LOL. You've pretty much heard right. Shibas, are I guess, "traditionally" considered difficult to train, and while I recognize that, I feel slightly different on the subject because it's the only breed of dog I've EVER had. I was fully prepared for what it was going to be like to train one of these guys, so it never seemed that bad for me.
I will say this- all my friends in Akitas shudder at the thought of owning Shibas. They'll point blank admit that trying to train a 15-18 pound Shiba is a LOT harder than bossing around Akitas.
There are "negative" aspects you have to be prepared to deal with in this breed- and a lot of people consider them deal breakers. For one- the off leash thing is pretty much completely true. This just isn't an off-leash breed, period. In the decade I've been "in" the breed I've met exactly TWO dogs that were vaguely trustworthy, living in an area that is perhaps the most popular site for Shibas in this country. They are door bolters- COMPLETE opportunists, that are unfortunately also wicked-fast.
My dogs are only walked on martingale collars because the unique "bullet shape" of the Shiba head means it's easy for them to back out of their collar, and once they learn THAT skill, you'll enjoy many heart-pounding hours chasing your dog through traffic. While I do have my guys trained in agility, I also basically have to post "sentinels" around the course in case my dog decides that agility is more boring than chasing small, furry animals. They have an extraordinarily high prey drive. The last time my boy bolted out of a doorway, we were only able to retrieve him by grabbing the entire Christmas ham off the table and running down the street with it, held high overhead.
In other words...these dogs will make your neighbors think you are crazy.
Other than that- they're pretty stubborn when it comes to training. They learn REALLY fast, but decide to turn their ears on and off, based on how boring you are. IE: lots of repetition with this breed will give you a dog that understands everything you say, and does none of it. Clicker training has been a real boon to my guys, and MANY other Shibas. They don't take corrections well.
Basically, it's a breed with a wicked sense of humor. I absolutely love it though.
Alright- sorry for hijacking the thread!
I will say this- all my friends in Akitas shudder at the thought of owning Shibas.
They'll point blank admit that trying to train a 15-18 pound Shiba is a LOT harder than bossing around Akitas.There are "negative" aspects you have to be prepared to deal with in this breed- and a lot of people consider them deal breakers. For one- the off leash thing is pretty much completely true. This just isn't an off-leash breed, period. In the decade I've been "in" the breed I've met exactly TWO dogs that were vaguely trustworthy, living in an area that is perhaps the most popular site for Shibas in this country. They are door bolters- COMPLETE opportunists, that are unfortunately also wicked-fast.
My dogs are only walked on martingale collars because the unique "bullet shape" of the Shiba head means it's easy for them to back out of their collar, and once they learn THAT skill, you'll enjoy many heart-pounding hours chasing your dog through traffic. While I do have my guys trained in agility, I also basically have to post "sentinels" around the course in case my dog decides that agility is more boring than chasing small, furry animals. They have an extraordinarily high prey drive. The last time my boy bolted out of a doorway, we were only able to retrieve him by grabbing the entire Christmas ham off the table and running down the street with it, held high overhead.
In other words...these dogs will make your neighbors think you are crazy.
Other than that- they're pretty stubborn when it comes to training. They learn REALLY fast, but decide to turn their ears on and off, based on how boring you are. IE: lots of repetition with this breed will give you a dog that understands everything you say, and does none of it. Clicker training has been a real boon to my guys, and MANY other Shibas. They don't take corrections well.
Basically, it's a breed with a wicked sense of humor. I absolutely love it though.
Alright- sorry for hijacking the thread!
Good question but hard to condense into a reply.
Simply put I use the methods described in those books that have been suggested. It's hard to put a name on it but I guess you could say I am a clicker trainer or that I use reward based methods.
I reward the behavior I want more of and ignore the behavior I don't like and make darned sure the world/environment isn't reinforcing it.
I teach / condition / train the dog to do exactly what I want using a variety of reward based methods luring, shaping, capturing so it's crystal clear to the dog what to do and it's well worth their while to do it.
I do often use a clicker but I don't use it for every situation- but I do use those same principles though wether I'm doing agility, herding or obedience or just teaching house manners or silly tricks. The method is not limited to "click and treat" and in fact is best used with a huge variety of reinforcers ie a thrown toy, praise, sending the dog to "go play" with other dogs,go to sheep, go to the next agility obstacle, getting to go outside etc
I teach lots of default /automatic behaviors that I don't cue so that the dog just does what he needs to do rather than me needing to cue him all the time-- which is no fun for either of us. The result is people saying "how do your dogs just KNOW to be so good?" and "why do your dogs stare at you so intently all the time?"
When I start a new dog (generally young adults from rescue) I feed them all their kibble (and additional treats) by hand as a reward for recalls, attention (eye contact) and a default "settle". I teach a default sit for everything by just waiting to pat/acknowledge the dog until he sits. If the dog wants out I just stand there with my hand on the handle and as soon as the dog looks at me I open the door -- it usually only takes a day before he is running to me and plunking his butt into the ground with enthusiasm , offering eye contact for everything. The dogs love this they think they have the keys to the kingdom. "If I sit, she pats me! I look at her = she opens the door. It's me training her!"
I also use the method where each cue has an implied "wait/stay" ie "sit" means sit until I either say "ok", click (the click ends the behavior) or cue a different behavior.-- sounds like a huge PIA but really once you get in the habit of saying "ok" or "go play" it's no more work and far easier to have this rather than having to tell the dog to wait or recue behaviors with a hyper dog.
When I am training I keep the rate of reinforcement very high , ie it's training at a rapid rate and if the dog offers an incorrect behavior ie I ask for a "sit" and I get a "down" I don't correct or "ah ah" I simply wait, give the dog a minute to think, the dog realises "oops, that one wasn't correct" and tries something else. I *might* use a "no reward marker" such as "whoops" or "good try" in certain situations.
Really it's a method that has to be seen to be appreciated. I would never have believed just by reading about it how well it works. Luckily I had the benefit of training with someone really fabulous and seeing was believing.Te instant change in my dog was mind blowing. I think you also really need to watch someone good to get the timing and mechanics down. I think there are video clips out there though-- maybe on Karen Pryor's site?
It's the same method marine animal trainers use to train dolphins and whales-- they couldn't be trained with punishment or a collar. Dolphins are sensitive and apparently in using punsihment with them, they become hugely demotivated and would even sink to the bottom of the tank and become comletely shut down and unable to work. The best thing about that was the discovery of this method and the subsequent realisation that reward based methods with a marker (they use whisltles with dolphins, we use clickers with dogs) , was actually a faster, better way to train a behavior. the animal learns with much more fluency and is generally far more keen to work. It allows them to THINK and try things out because they don't need to worry that anything unpleasant will happen if they guess wrong.
Wow what an answer!!
You are obviously a huge dog lover. It sounds like you are very dedicated to your dogs and they to you. basically what it boils down to is repitition and observation, I think. you must watch carefully to make sure you get the right response and reward when the correct response is given. Simple, but complex at the same time. Thanks for your knowledge.
You are obviously a huge dog lover. It sounds like you are very dedicated to your dogs and they to you. basically what it boils down to is repitition and observation, I think. you must watch carefully to make sure you get the right response and reward when the correct response is given. Simple, but complex at the same time. Thanks for your knowledge.
I had a Chessie. I can relate to that.
A working-line breeder received a phone call one night from a man interested in getting a retriever. He spoke to the breeder for several minutes, going on an on about how wonderful goldens were, how obedient, how clean, how good with family, and what fantastic hunting dogs they were. Finally he stopped talking and the Chessie breeder replied, "You're right, goldens are all those things but I believe you're mistaken. I don't breed goldens, I breed Chesapeake Bay Retrievers."
"You breed only Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?," replied the man on the phone, taken aback.
"Yes," said the breeder.
"You poor son of a bitch," declared the caller, voice full of pity as he hung-up.
A working-line breeder received a phone call one night from a man interested in getting a retriever. He spoke to the breeder for several minutes, going on an on about how wonderful goldens were, how obedient, how clean, how good with family, and what fantastic hunting dogs they were. Finally he stopped talking and the Chessie breeder replied, "You're right, goldens are all those things but I believe you're mistaken. I don't breed goldens, I breed Chesapeake Bay Retrievers."
"You breed only Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?," replied the man on the phone, taken aback.
"Yes," said the breeder.
"You poor son of a bitch," declared the caller, voice full of pity as he hung-up.
Good explanation Sam! That pretty much sums it up for me. Now I don't have to describe anything.
Yes...default behaviors are wonderful. I remember when Lyric was quite young and he had already learned a good, solid down/stay. In his class, as we all put our dogs in the down/stay, everyone else dramatically bent at the waist, swept their hands in front of their dogs and said in rather serious, stern voices, "stay!" I just told him down with a little flick of the wrist and turned on my heels and walked the 20 ft. or so away. We had already worked on this at home a lot. He was staying very nicely as he is an apt pupil. The trainer said, "Don't forget to tell him to stay." I explained that that does mean stay unless otherwise posted. LOL. She said, "show off." And chuckled in good humor. But it is nice for certain behaviors and fun when people wonder how on earth you signalled your dog to do something. LOL.
Yes...default behaviors are wonderful. I remember when Lyric was quite young and he had already learned a good, solid down/stay. In his class, as we all put our dogs in the down/stay, everyone else dramatically bent at the waist, swept their hands in front of their dogs and said in rather serious, stern voices, "stay!" I just told him down with a little flick of the wrist and turned on my heels and walked the 20 ft. or so away. We had already worked on this at home a lot. He was staying very nicely as he is an apt pupil. The trainer said, "Don't forget to tell him to stay." I explained that that does mean stay unless otherwise posted. LOL. She said, "show off." And chuckled in good humor. But it is nice for certain behaviors and fun when people wonder how on earth you signalled your dog to do something. LOL.
AHAHAHAHAHA! I love it- that is truly the way most people feel about those of us crazy enough to get into Shibas.
I'm jealous about your Chessie as well. When I was around 11-12 (before I could convince my parents to allow me to buy a dog), this was the one breed I wanted. I never ended up getting my Chessie, but to this day it is still my favorite of the retrievers. I like the stubborn protective breeds the best...I dunno, maybe it's because I imagine that is what I would be like if I were a dog.
I'm jealous about your Chessie as well. When I was around 11-12 (before I could convince my parents to allow me to buy a dog), this was the one breed I wanted. I never ended up getting my Chessie, but to this day it is still my favorite of the retrievers. I like the stubborn protective breeds the best...I dunno, maybe it's because I imagine that is what I would be like if I were a dog.
I have to say I am one of those people who thinks Shiba people are nuts. They are darned cute but sure not easy to motivate and train. A gal I train with has three of them and she has obedience titles on one (I think a CDX) and is competing in rally and CKC agility with them. We call her the Queen of Shibas
The wierd thing is she also owned and competed with a dobie-- what a weird combo!
They are darned cute but sure not easy to motivate and train. A gal I train with has three of them and she has obedience titles on one (I think a CDX) and is competing in rally and CKC agility with them. We call her the Queen of Shibas The wierd thing is she also owned and competed with a dobie-- what a weird combo!
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1,083
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
I have to say I am one of those people who thinks Shiba people are nuts. They are darned cute but sure not easy to motivate and train. A gal I train with has three of them and she has obedience titles on one (I think a CDX) and is competing in rally and CKC agility with them. We call her the Queen of Shibas
The wierd thing is she also owned and competed with a dobie-- what a weird combo!
They are darned cute but sure not easy to motivate and train. A gal I train with has three of them and she has obedience titles on one (I think a CDX) and is competing in rally and CKC agility with them. We call her the Queen of Shibas The wierd thing is she also owned and competed with a dobie-- what a weird combo!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
They really do act like they look; a bit scruffy, truculent, not very friendly, ragged around the edges, and they smell like dog all the time. A great dog for a bunch of men to take hunting for a week at a camp with no power or plumbing. They'll even retrieve your beer from the cooler <burp>. Nothing refined about them what-so-ever.
I loved every minute with mine. A great best bud for a young single guy. Not a chick magnet, but loyal, eager to please me in outdoor activities, very quiet, not dog or person aggressive, easy to please, and could read my mind. I still miss him like no other dog and I will get another at some point.
I loved every minute with mine. A great best bud for a young single guy. Not a chick magnet, but loyal, eager to please me in outdoor activities, very quiet, not dog or person aggressive, easy to please, and could read my mind. I still miss him like no other dog and I will get another at some point.