Differences - Reactivity/Aggression
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Interesting thread (just read it for the first time).
I don't have any problems with the term "aggressive" because I think we should call it as it is. I tend to use the term in a slightly softened way just to keep my clients happier, though - I usually say "your dog is acting in an aggressive way". If the dog is lunging, snarling, snapping, biting - well, yes, that dog is aggressive regardless of WHY. The actions are aggressive.
The example of the woman who used the mace on a perceived threat and then went on to start macing all men is a classic example of fear aggression to me. She's pre-empting a potential attack by attacking first. This isn't straight aggression for the sake of aggression - it's a reaction from fear. So it just doesn't work for me in the context in which it was intended.
If a person has a dog with aggression problems, I think it's important that they accept that there are aggression problems and then work to find out why and then how to fix or control those problems. I understand the concern over public perception but honestly - don't you think that the public already sees those dogs as aggressive and wonder why people are hiding behind semantics? I've met so many people who have dogs at the point of biting and they say "ohhh, Fido's not aggressive .. he's just scared/territorial/protective/prey driven" (put in appropriate excuse here). They don't want to admit to the aggression because then it will seem like they've done something wrong and should be working on the problem. And unfortunately many of the dogs end up paying for it in the long run with their lives.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I don't have any problems with the term "aggressive" because I think we should call it as it is. I tend to use the term in a slightly softened way just to keep my clients happier, though - I usually say "your dog is acting in an aggressive way". If the dog is lunging, snarling, snapping, biting - well, yes, that dog is aggressive regardless of WHY. The actions are aggressive.
The example of the woman who used the mace on a perceived threat and then went on to start macing all men is a classic example of fear aggression to me. She's pre-empting a potential attack by attacking first. This isn't straight aggression for the sake of aggression - it's a reaction from fear. So it just doesn't work for me in the context in which it was intended.
If a person has a dog with aggression problems, I think it's important that they accept that there are aggression problems and then work to find out why and then how to fix or control those problems. I understand the concern over public perception but honestly - don't you think that the public already sees those dogs as aggressive and wonder why people are hiding behind semantics? I've met so many people who have dogs at the point of biting and they say "ohhh, Fido's not aggressive .. he's just scared/territorial/protective/prey driven" (put in appropriate excuse here). They don't want to admit to the aggression because then it will seem like they've done something wrong and should be working on the problem. And unfortunately many of the dogs end up paying for it in the long run with their lives.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I agree completely.
Because of the inferences society makes, I have taken to calling Nyx "assertive". Society deems aggression as wanton maliciousness. Nyx isn't at all malicious, she doesn't want to hurt people, but she is very demanding and when she wants to play, she has no problem with resorting to biting people in order to initiate a response. When not dealing with the general public, I have no issue with calling her "aggressive", but in this day and age, there can be serious ramifications if a dog is called "aggressive".
@ Dana, I agree completely that in dealing with malinois, reactivity and prey aggression become quite familiar.
Because of the inferences society makes, I have taken to calling Nyx "assertive". Society deems aggression as wanton maliciousness. Nyx isn't at all malicious, she doesn't want to hurt people, but she is very demanding and when she wants to play, she has no problem with resorting to biting people in order to initiate a response. When not dealing with the general public, I have no issue with calling her "aggressive", but in this day and age, there can be serious ramifications if a dog is called "aggressive".
@ Dana, I agree completely that in dealing with malinois, reactivity and prey aggression become quite familiar.
Did anyone else read the article I posted, "Aggression As Rewarding As Sex, Food And Drugs, New Research Shows"?
I've always been working under the idea that (most) animals would prefer to avoid aggression, but feel sufficiently threatened to offer it up in certain circumstances. That idea is consistent with the "dog aggression as fear" and "fear-biter" model. But what if they just like barking at other dogs and people? If the behavior is self-rewarding, should we re-evaluate our training techniques? It certainly makes me wonder if I've been too tentative about punishing the aggression.
I've always been working under the idea that (most) animals would prefer to avoid aggression, but feel sufficiently threatened to offer it up in certain circumstances. That idea is consistent with the "dog aggression as fear" and "fear-biter" model. But what if they just like barking at other dogs and people? If the behavior is self-rewarding, should we re-evaluate our training techniques? It certainly makes me wonder if I've been too tentative about punishing the aggression.
Dana, the article doesn't looad for me. All I get is a blankk screen.
As for barking, biting being a self rewarding behavior, I think in some cases it is. I know that when Nyx acts aggressively, biting my jacket, trying to initiate play, she is absolutely enjoying the bites (she is a malinois after all
).
I do mild positive punishment as well as however much negative punishment is possible with her when she does this. If I'm not very careful, I'll trigger her fight drive to kick in and the whole thing will escalate.
So while it may be a rewarding behavior for some dogs (those in prey aggression and fight drive especially), I would still advise bein tentative about punishing it.
Also, I would definitely want to be sure the dog wasn't biting out of fear before punishing (which is why I waited (too long?) with Nyx to punish her for lunging and barking at other dogs. When I was confident that she was acting in play/prey drive, I did begin using some strong punishment for that and it worked well. I am seeing a lot of improvement in her behaviors.
I don't know if that really answers your question. It's way too early in the morning to think.
As for barking, biting being a self rewarding behavior, I think in some cases it is. I know that when Nyx acts aggressively, biting my jacket, trying to initiate play, she is absolutely enjoying the bites (she is a malinois after all
).I do mild positive punishment as well as however much negative punishment is possible with her when she does this. If I'm not very careful, I'll trigger her fight drive to kick in and the whole thing will escalate.
So while it may be a rewarding behavior for some dogs (those in prey aggression and fight drive especially), I would still advise bein tentative about punishing it.
Also, I would definitely want to be sure the dog wasn't biting out of fear before punishing (which is why I waited (too long?) with Nyx to punish her for lunging and barking at other dogs. When I was confident that she was acting in play/prey drive, I did begin using some strong punishment for that and it worked well. I am seeing a lot of improvement in her behaviors.
I don't know if that really answers your question. It's way too early in the morning to think.
I just tested the link at science daily and you are right- just a white page. Here is a link to the article on another site:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080014220454data_trunc_sys.shtml
Your point about punishment being dangerous in some cases is well taken. I have certainly seen dogs like yours that will start off over-stimulated and "playful", but cross the link into aggression very quickly when corrected. Dealing successfully with this sort of dog generally takes a ton of experience no matter how you approach it, though. At least if you plan on actually making a result and not tip-toeing around the dogs "issues" forever. Purely positive methods tend not to make any kind of a permanent dent in these dogs. When they stimulate, they feel the need to bite. Food won't tend to sway them and they will tend to try to take control over all toys and play rewards. It takes some good thinking and planning and a great ability to read the dog and adapt the training moment by moment to control the dog's mood. Let them get too high before they understand the training and you will end up in trouble all over again.
Anyone read the book "Blink"? It's about human behavior and how we make decisions. It is really interesting and applies directly to this topic- he says that at high levels of stimulation we can't discriminate very well and can only perform from some sort of subconscious thinking. I think that is what happens with these drivey, crazy dogs. Once they get there, you can't get through to them with any kind of subtlety. They will only be able to respond to commands they already know really well.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080014220454data_trunc_sys.shtml
Your point about punishment being dangerous in some cases is well taken. I have certainly seen dogs like yours that will start off over-stimulated and "playful", but cross the link into aggression very quickly when corrected. Dealing successfully with this sort of dog generally takes a ton of experience no matter how you approach it, though. At least if you plan on actually making a result and not tip-toeing around the dogs "issues" forever. Purely positive methods tend not to make any kind of a permanent dent in these dogs. When they stimulate, they feel the need to bite. Food won't tend to sway them and they will tend to try to take control over all toys and play rewards. It takes some good thinking and planning and a great ability to read the dog and adapt the training moment by moment to control the dog's mood. Let them get too high before they understand the training and you will end up in trouble all over again.
Anyone read the book "Blink"? It's about human behavior and how we make decisions. It is really interesting and applies directly to this topic- he says that at high levels of stimulation we can't discriminate very well and can only perform from some sort of subconscious thinking. I think that is what happens with these drivey, crazy dogs. Once they get there, you can't get through to them with any kind of subtlety. They will only be able to respond to commands they already know really well.
That is an interesting article Dana, thanks for the new link. I'm thinking there could be a way to use that concept when dealing with aggressive dogs ~ I just haven't thought it out fully .
Very much agreed. I have learned quite a bit from dealing with her and my approach does change from moment to moment. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on how best to work with such a dog, as I think you have more experience than I in that realm.
.Very much agreed. I have learned quite a bit from dealing with her and my approach does change from moment to moment. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on how best to work with such a dog, as I think you have more experience than I in that realm.
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I find these statements to be a little contradictory. One one hand you're saying that they turn aggressive when corrected, but that positive methods don't make a dent in the behavior. If positive doesn't work, and correction creates aggression, does that mean the dogs are hopeless?
I actually don't agree with the "positive doesn't make a dent" comment. I've used some really great positive methods on dogs with high aggression levels and have had very good results. But it takes strict observation and reaction on the part of the human and that's where most people fail. You have to notice the precursors to the behavior, and have to understand the concept of comfort thresholds and how to find the level where your dog goes from calm, non-reactive to reactive and then start working at a level just before the reactive level.
It takes commitment, time and patience on the part of the humans and we humans tend to be impatient. I find the thought that positive doesn't work to be a human failing, not a dog problem. Now, I'm not saying that dogs should never be corrected - but you can go a LONG way with a reactive/aggressive dog using proper desensitization without the use of much in the way of correction. And that's especially important if you have a dog that reacts to correction with increased aggression.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I actually don't agree with the "positive doesn't make a dent" comment. I've used some really great positive methods on dogs with high aggression levels and have had very good results. But it takes strict observation and reaction on the part of the human and that's where most people fail. You have to notice the precursors to the behavior, and have to understand the concept of comfort thresholds and how to find the level where your dog goes from calm, non-reactive to reactive and then start working at a level just before the reactive level.
It takes commitment, time and patience on the part of the humans and we humans tend to be impatient. I find the thought that positive doesn't work to be a human failing, not a dog problem. Now, I'm not saying that dogs should never be corrected - but you can go a LONG way with a reactive/aggressive dog using proper desensitization without the use of much in the way of correction. And that's especially important if you have a dog that reacts to correction with increased aggression.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I don't know if I have more experience than you, but I have worked with lots of aggressive dogs over the years. Working in LA as a pet dog trainer, I was one of the only trainers who was willing to work with aggressive dogs. Peeps in LA are not fighting for business, so I was friendly with a lot of other trainers and many of them sent me the aggressive dogs they didn't want to deal with, i.e. the ones that really bit or were scary.
My general plan of attack is to keep everything very calm and low key in the beginning sessions. I don't make eye contact with new dogs if they show any sign of nervousness around me. I focus the training on reward based exercises to teach the dog how to learn and to have a positive association with me and the training. When I add correction, I add it in a way that does not make dogs nervous- steady collar pressure with a release as soon as the dog complies into the known behavior (usually "place"). This type of correction is not quick or violent but can be very effective if used properly. I do not use any collar that might panic the dog. Usually just a normal flat collar, occasionally halti, but no chokes and no pinches in the beginning. I make sure all my movements are very calm and deliberate, especially any leash corrections. I also keep the focus on the food. If the dog isn't working well for the food, I will not add correction to the mix.
I believe compliance to leash pressure is primarily a learned behavior. Once the dog really understands how to "turn a correction off" through compliance, then I will start adding "distraction". In the beginning I use food or other mild distractions. I teach the dog that the food may drop to the floor, but the only way to get it is to stay on the place (or sit or down). I let them think through these types of problems, rather than trying to force them into compliance. I will let a dog get off the bed and stand with the collar tight and anchoring them in an uncomfortable position off the bed as long as they want to fight the leash. The collar is flat, so it's really more of a power struggle than any real "correction". When the dog gives up and goes back to his place, I give him a treat from my hand. By the end of the session I am at the point where I can pick the treat up from the ground and hand it to him- showing him that if he just listens and waits, it will come to him, from me.
As his understanding and compliance improve, I move to adding distraction in the form that he tends to be aggressive towards (in the case of Nyx, that might be his handler getting a little stimulated to excite her). I am careful to add it in a controlled way, keeping enough distance and managing movement and noise enough that he is only mildly stimulated. If he complies and stays on his place, he is rewarded with food. If he makes a mistake, he is corrected and allowed to think through the steady correction if he needs to and the distraction is stopped completely to allow him the space to calm down and think. When I am doing this, I make sure that the rewards grossly outnumber the corrections. This needs to be primarily a positive training exercise for the dog. I think many people get over-eager about the corrections once they introduce them and end up correcting way too much and stimulating the dog through that stress rather than calming them. I prefer to take my time and work a lot of this with really positive sessions, keeping the focus on success and progress.
I gradually increase the distraction as the dog's understanding and reliability increase. I will also move from the place to heeling and sit or down stays so that the person has tools to use at the house and in the neighborhood and in the park. But I tend to use a static position anytime the dog over-stimulates. Dogs trained this way will see a dog or person coming on the trail and offer the down without any prompting. They learn to "turn themselves off" and develop a lot of confidence about staying in that position and having the person keep them safe from the "threats". They also come to see that the people and dogs are generally not threatening. Of course, if you let them get attacked by a loose dog (or crazy person) you are going to get set back.
In the case of a Schutzhund dog or other sport dog, you also have to teach them how to get stimulated but focus that into the right behavior. I do the same sort of training, but will occassionally release them into the drive object (toy, sleeve, jump, sheep, etc.) as a reward for compliance. I never release them if they are "scattered" and unfocused with their drive. If they whine, bark, move their head in a crazy, unfocused way or any of those other signs that they are getting too stimulated to think, I down them or place them until they are calm, showing them that they cannot earn the reward that way. Then I start the exercise again (heeling or start line or back transport or whatever) and release them to work when they are clear and focused on the exercise at hand.
I think your big thing with Nyx would be to get a reliable down so that everytime she starts jumping at you, you can get her back under control and step away from her until she is calm. She wants to interact with you. Show her that when she acts crazy you leave her. She can only keep you if she stays clear and focused on the exercises. Is this similar to what you have been doing? Does all this sound familiar to you or is this different from your approach? I'd be interested to hear what you have been doing and how it is working and why. I like the whys Maybe you notice from my posts that I get a little into the details :lol-sign:
My general plan of attack is to keep everything very calm and low key in the beginning sessions. I don't make eye contact with new dogs if they show any sign of nervousness around me. I focus the training on reward based exercises to teach the dog how to learn and to have a positive association with me and the training. When I add correction, I add it in a way that does not make dogs nervous- steady collar pressure with a release as soon as the dog complies into the known behavior (usually "place"). This type of correction is not quick or violent but can be very effective if used properly. I do not use any collar that might panic the dog. Usually just a normal flat collar, occasionally halti, but no chokes and no pinches in the beginning. I make sure all my movements are very calm and deliberate, especially any leash corrections. I also keep the focus on the food. If the dog isn't working well for the food, I will not add correction to the mix.
I believe compliance to leash pressure is primarily a learned behavior. Once the dog really understands how to "turn a correction off" through compliance, then I will start adding "distraction". In the beginning I use food or other mild distractions. I teach the dog that the food may drop to the floor, but the only way to get it is to stay on the place (or sit or down). I let them think through these types of problems, rather than trying to force them into compliance. I will let a dog get off the bed and stand with the collar tight and anchoring them in an uncomfortable position off the bed as long as they want to fight the leash. The collar is flat, so it's really more of a power struggle than any real "correction". When the dog gives up and goes back to his place, I give him a treat from my hand. By the end of the session I am at the point where I can pick the treat up from the ground and hand it to him- showing him that if he just listens and waits, it will come to him, from me.
As his understanding and compliance improve, I move to adding distraction in the form that he tends to be aggressive towards (in the case of Nyx, that might be his handler getting a little stimulated to excite her). I am careful to add it in a controlled way, keeping enough distance and managing movement and noise enough that he is only mildly stimulated. If he complies and stays on his place, he is rewarded with food. If he makes a mistake, he is corrected and allowed to think through the steady correction if he needs to and the distraction is stopped completely to allow him the space to calm down and think. When I am doing this, I make sure that the rewards grossly outnumber the corrections. This needs to be primarily a positive training exercise for the dog. I think many people get over-eager about the corrections once they introduce them and end up correcting way too much and stimulating the dog through that stress rather than calming them. I prefer to take my time and work a lot of this with really positive sessions, keeping the focus on success and progress.
I gradually increase the distraction as the dog's understanding and reliability increase. I will also move from the place to heeling and sit or down stays so that the person has tools to use at the house and in the neighborhood and in the park. But I tend to use a static position anytime the dog over-stimulates. Dogs trained this way will see a dog or person coming on the trail and offer the down without any prompting. They learn to "turn themselves off" and develop a lot of confidence about staying in that position and having the person keep them safe from the "threats". They also come to see that the people and dogs are generally not threatening. Of course, if you let them get attacked by a loose dog (or crazy person) you are going to get set back.
In the case of a Schutzhund dog or other sport dog, you also have to teach them how to get stimulated but focus that into the right behavior. I do the same sort of training, but will occassionally release them into the drive object (toy, sleeve, jump, sheep, etc.) as a reward for compliance. I never release them if they are "scattered" and unfocused with their drive. If they whine, bark, move their head in a crazy, unfocused way or any of those other signs that they are getting too stimulated to think, I down them or place them until they are calm, showing them that they cannot earn the reward that way. Then I start the exercise again (heeling or start line or back transport or whatever) and release them to work when they are clear and focused on the exercise at hand.
I think your big thing with Nyx would be to get a reliable down so that everytime she starts jumping at you, you can get her back under control and step away from her until she is calm. She wants to interact with you. Show her that when she acts crazy you leave her. She can only keep you if she stays clear and focused on the exercises. Is this similar to what you have been doing? Does all this sound familiar to you or is this different from your approach? I'd be interested to hear what you have been doing and how it is working and why. I like the whys
Maybe you notice from my posts that I get a little into the details :lol-sign:Maybe this does sound a little unclear. I am thinking about dogs that have learned to make a release into biting and are bred for that "drive". You don't see these dogs very often outside of the world of protection sports bc most people have the good sense not to reward their dogs' crazy behaviors with a bite toy
When training the protection sports you are teaching dogs to put their excitement and stress into biting something- either the equipment or the man. This is a deep-seated instinct in a predator and certain breeds have been bred for exaggerated prey aggression. It is very stressful and frustrating for the dog to get stimulated and then be asked to wait for the satisfaction of the biting- their instincts lead them inexorably towards the release they find in biting. It's easy to make the mistake of letting the dog get way too stimulated way too soon with no good plan about how to add the control, especially with certain types of dogs. The protection sports are about control, so this is not a desired result, but it happens. When it does, it is very hard to resolve, as you might imagine- the dogs are rewarding themselves with no regard to the handler. They are too stimulated to want food. And, for the problem cases, corrections only add more stimulation and make the problem worse.
Working with a dog's natural drives gets very complicated, very quickly. They are no longer working for us, but rather for themselves, for the adrenalin high that comes from hunting and aggression. To maintain control over the behavior, you have to convince the dog that the path to the release it through compliance and obedience. But too much compliance and obedience generally results in a dog that does not get stimulated enough to perform the task in front of him. The balancing act is difficult and many people accidentally end up too far in the direction of drive without the clarity and control to make it useful. This just doesn't happen when working with food rewards based training. The handler is always in complete control of the food and the dog has no opportunity to self-reward and everything is happening at a fairly low arousal level so the dogs are inherently able to think and learn well.
Does this make more sense?
When training the protection sports you are teaching dogs to put their excitement and stress into biting something- either the equipment or the man. This is a deep-seated instinct in a predator and certain breeds have been bred for exaggerated prey aggression. It is very stressful and frustrating for the dog to get stimulated and then be asked to wait for the satisfaction of the biting- their instincts lead them inexorably towards the release they find in biting. It's easy to make the mistake of letting the dog get way too stimulated way too soon with no good plan about how to add the control, especially with certain types of dogs. The protection sports are about control, so this is not a desired result, but it happens. When it does, it is very hard to resolve, as you might imagine- the dogs are rewarding themselves with no regard to the handler. They are too stimulated to want food. And, for the problem cases, corrections only add more stimulation and make the problem worse.
Working with a dog's natural drives gets very complicated, very quickly. They are no longer working for us, but rather for themselves, for the adrenalin high that comes from hunting and aggression. To maintain control over the behavior, you have to convince the dog that the path to the release it through compliance and obedience. But too much compliance and obedience generally results in a dog that does not get stimulated enough to perform the task in front of him. The balancing act is difficult and many people accidentally end up too far in the direction of drive without the clarity and control to make it useful. This just doesn't happen when working with food rewards based training. The handler is always in complete control of the food and the dog has no opportunity to self-reward and everything is happening at a fairly low arousal level so the dogs are inherently able to think and learn well.
Does this make more sense?
I think your big thing with Nyx would be to get a reliable down so that everytime she starts jumping at you, you can get her back under control and step away from her until she is calm. She wants to interact with you. Show her that when she acts crazy you leave her. She can only keep you if she stays clear and focused on the exercises. Is this similar to what you have been doing? Does all this sound familiar to you or is this different from your approach? I'd be interested to hear what you have been doing and how it is working and why. I like the whys Maybe you notice from my posts that I get a little into the details :lol-sign:
Maybe you notice from my posts that I get a little into the details :lol-sign:
I do a lot of basic obedience work using low value rewards (food) so that she is better able to focus, and then sometimes a toy at the end of the session. I also use the toy to teach her calmness before play, right now in very short intervals, with an almost immediate reward when she calms down. I am able now (finally) to wait a couple additional moments before giving her the ball or tug. This is hopefully teaching her to be controlled while in drive.
It took me a while to figure out the collar pressure corrections instead of collar pops. I had always been taught to use collar pops, but trying that when she was biting me and lunging at me only made her worse ~ it excited her, I think because with each pop there was an arm movement, which was something she thought she should bite, control, make stop moving. I began using quiet pressure on the collar while being very still and unresponsive to her, and she started calming down.
When I play with her - with a ball or tug - I do a lot of control work in between being allowed to play. It is a delicate balance to be sure we have both control and drive. She is beginning to get the idea that sitting is her better option.
I do a lot of work on the static exercises as a way to reduce stimulation. Heeling is a bit trickier because the act of me walking is enough to bring on prey drive. When I do heeling work with her, I always start with a quiet sit or down, and then a few steps of heeling as a low value reward ~ movement ~ followed by a medium or high value reward of food or toy. The heeling is a bit trickier actually, because if I don't have some drive going she'll fall into a lag, but if I have too much drive she'll overstimuate. And with her, there's not a whole lot of middle ground.
I am hoping that as she matures and as her training progresses that her threshhold won't be quite so hairline.
Right now, I'm still in a bit of an experimental stage of things - with her it tends to be that a method will work for a few days and then she'll figure out how to outsmart it. But I think we're finally onto a system that is working. I hope that all made sense, I'm not always great at explaining these things in writing.
How old is Nyx? Have you raised her from puppyhood? Marco was my first malinois puppy and I was totally floored by how different he was from any other dog I had ever worked with. There can be a bit of a learning curve with these guys. There just aren't too many breeds out there with such extreme levels of drive and aggression and reactivity/sensitivity. It's a lot to figure out and it's happening really fast :lol-sign:
Have you worked on "place training"? It sounds like she really thinks all of the rewards happen when she is close to you and looking at you. Place training will teach her to leave you and break eye contact to earn the rewards. I think it would do her a ton of good. Target training is a similar idea, but without any static component. Place training gets them to leave you and then stay away from you on their bed or a half of a plastic crate or a bench or whatever.
I think all training requires a balance between three basic skills- moving towards you (looking at you), moving away from you and holding still. If your dog has those three basic skills and can perform them all equally well, you have the foundation to succeed at any dog training discipline. Without those three things, you are very limited in pretty much all of the disciplines. It sounds to me like Nyx is way to focused on the moving towards you stuff which is making the training hard on you. I would stop all of the attention training for a week or two, maybe longer. Only reward her for going away and holding still. Let her focus on one or both of these for a while. I think you will find that this helps everything. Place training is really all you need to work both skills, one of the reasons I use it so much.
Have you worked on "place training"? It sounds like she really thinks all of the rewards happen when she is close to you and looking at you. Place training will teach her to leave you and break eye contact to earn the rewards. I think it would do her a ton of good. Target training is a similar idea, but without any static component. Place training gets them to leave you and then stay away from you on their bed or a half of a plastic crate or a bench or whatever.
I think all training requires a balance between three basic skills- moving towards you (looking at you), moving away from you and holding still. If your dog has those three basic skills and can perform them all equally well, you have the foundation to succeed at any dog training discipline. Without those three things, you are very limited in pretty much all of the disciplines. It sounds to me like Nyx is way to focused on the moving towards you stuff which is making the training hard on you. I would stop all of the attention training for a week or two, maybe longer. Only reward her for going away and holding still. Let her focus on one or both of these for a while. I think you will find that this helps everything. Place training is really all you need to work both skills, one of the reasons I use it so much.
Thanks for the ideas. Nyx just turned a year last month, and I've had her since she was about 9 weeks. She comes from some top lines and a highly reccommended breeder ~ who jokingly asked if I was really ready for a high drive female malinois shortly before I got her, and also jokingly said that I would probably want to send her back after a day or two...GADS!! I should've listened to the warnings :lol-sign:
She's my second mal, but the first is truly quite mellow compared to her. He's been very easy to work with.
I haven't done very much with a place command. I focused a lot of our training on her being near me and on attention because she has a lot of issues with environmental stimulus and reactivity ~ lunging and barking at other dogs, plastic bags blowing in the wind, leaves, small children...It's really only been the last couple weeks or so that she's started actively ignoring environmental stimuli and deferring to me, so I'm hoping we're at a mini breakthrough here and can get on to more things.
I will start working on a place command, because you're right about it adding to the balance of the training exercises. I got caught up in all her issues and totally didn't think of it.
She's my second mal, but the first is truly quite mellow compared to her. He's been very easy to work with.
I haven't done very much with a place command. I focused a lot of our training on her being near me and on attention because she has a lot of issues with environmental stimulus and reactivity ~ lunging and barking at other dogs, plastic bags blowing in the wind, leaves, small children...It's really only been the last couple weeks or so that she's started actively ignoring environmental stimuli and deferring to me, so I'm hoping we're at a mini breakthrough here and can get on to more things.
I will start working on a place command, because you're right about it adding to the balance of the training exercises. I got caught up in all her issues and totally didn't think of it.