Thinking of using this method with London.There is APDT approved trainer close by.Have talked to her on the phone and really like what she had to say and her general attitude on training and life were very nice as well.So my question is.Is this method effective, what has been your experience with this training and can it be done without a trainer?
Clicker Training,the good,bad and ugly?
- Thread starter Me and London
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The principles behind clicker training are 100% sound and effective. Any time I hear someone say "clicker training doesn't work" it tells me volumes about the inadequacy of the trainer, not the method. I won't say that clicker training solves all problems easily but I truly believe that the concept of marking a behavior with a specific sound (be it click or word) and then consistently following that sound with a reward is the way ALL training should be started.
I don't tend to use an actual clicker a lot - I use a marker word instead - but the principles are the same. Positive reinforcement training is a wonderful way to build a trusting, strong, sensible bond with your dog. If you're consistent, fair, patient and have good timing you will just fall in love with this method. It builds a desire to work into your dog.
There are ways to mess up +R (positive reinforcement) training just like there are ways to mess up any kind of training, but the nice thing is that if you reward at the wrong times you can easily overcome that. With more corrective methods, if you correct at the wrong times you can build a lasting impression (not a good one) in your dog that will affect the way they view training and their interaction with you.
I would highly recommend using the trainer so that YOU can learn how to do this. Your dog's success lays squarely on your shoulders and if you are unsure or inept as a trainer then your dog won't learn well. So getting some good training for you is always the best way to start. Your trainer should help you with understanding the methods, the timing, how to shape behaviors and how to help your dog do the behavior you want to shape, and how to use motivators (toys, treats, etc.) in a way that doesn't make the dog dependent on seeing or smelling a reward before they'll respond to a command. The biggest problem people have in using rewards is that they teach the dog that the reward is part of the cue (for example, holding out a treat and then asking the dog to sit - do this for very long and soon the dog will only sit when he sees the treat because the treat has become part of the entire cue for the behavior).
Once you learn how to do the training there's a lot you can do on your own - you can play with teaching your dog all sorts of tricks and fun things as well as obedience behaviors. One way for YOU to practice is to do something like setting a cardboard box out in the middle of the floor and then marking and rewarding all behaviors that your dog offers regarding the box. At first it may just be looking at the box, but if your timing is good then your dog will soon focus on the box and start offering different behaviors (nudging with the nose, pawing, standing on it, etc.) to see what will get rewarded. And then you can choose one behavior to shape for awhile just to tune up your timing some more. If you screw up it doesn't matter because it's a behavior that isn't important overall - and you can just try another behavior at a different time. The key to all of this is being patient, understanding that it takes some time to develop good timing for you, and just laughing it off when things don't come together quickly. We humans tend to be really impatient at times and it works against us when we're training.
Good luck and have fun!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I don't tend to use an actual clicker a lot - I use a marker word instead - but the principles are the same. Positive reinforcement training is a wonderful way to build a trusting, strong, sensible bond with your dog. If you're consistent, fair, patient and have good timing you will just fall in love with this method. It builds a desire to work into your dog.
There are ways to mess up +R (positive reinforcement) training just like there are ways to mess up any kind of training, but the nice thing is that if you reward at the wrong times you can easily overcome that. With more corrective methods, if you correct at the wrong times you can build a lasting impression (not a good one) in your dog that will affect the way they view training and their interaction with you.
I would highly recommend using the trainer so that YOU can learn how to do this. Your dog's success lays squarely on your shoulders and if you are unsure or inept as a trainer then your dog won't learn well. So getting some good training for you is always the best way to start. Your trainer should help you with understanding the methods, the timing, how to shape behaviors and how to help your dog do the behavior you want to shape, and how to use motivators (toys, treats, etc.) in a way that doesn't make the dog dependent on seeing or smelling a reward before they'll respond to a command. The biggest problem people have in using rewards is that they teach the dog that the reward is part of the cue (for example, holding out a treat and then asking the dog to sit - do this for very long and soon the dog will only sit when he sees the treat because the treat has become part of the entire cue for the behavior).
Once you learn how to do the training there's a lot you can do on your own - you can play with teaching your dog all sorts of tricks and fun things as well as obedience behaviors. One way for YOU to practice is to do something like setting a cardboard box out in the middle of the floor and then marking and rewarding all behaviors that your dog offers regarding the box. At first it may just be looking at the box, but if your timing is good then your dog will soon focus on the box and start offering different behaviors (nudging with the nose, pawing, standing on it, etc.) to see what will get rewarded. And then you can choose one behavior to shape for awhile just to tune up your timing some more. If you screw up it doesn't matter because it's a behavior that isn't important overall - and you can just try another behavior at a different time. The key to all of this is being patient, understanding that it takes some time to develop good timing for you, and just laughing it off when things don't come together quickly. We humans tend to be really impatient at times and it works against us when we're training.
Good luck and have fun!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Melanie provided excellent info above. My personal history with clicker training is this:
I had two rescue dogs before Marlowe, both of whom I trained "the ole fashioned way" and because both were/are tractable, biddable, people-oriented dogs, it kinda sorta worked. They were both "good enough" and because I loathed training them (as did they) because it involved having to be so harsh and mean to them, "good enough" was where we stopped.
Then I rescued Marlowe, a two year old coonhound from a working background. He had never lived in a house before, he'd never been a pet before, he knew no obedience, was not housetrained, and absolutely was lost in this new world he was in. He is not a biddable dog, he was not particularly people-oriented. He latched on to me and my husband more out of desperation than because he naturally wanted to be around people. He's stubborn as an ox, serious as a heart attack, and he doesn't care about my praise, and he doesn't really care about my punishments either. At least, not about the punishments I'm actually willing to dole out. He's not a dog who's super into the social hierarchy either--he's out for himself and himself only and the whole alpha/beta/submissive/dominant game is not part of his wiring. That pretty much took off the table all the forms of training I was already familiar with (punishments-based, and dominance-based).
It took me about two weeks of having Marlowe to realize that I was not going to get through to him without changing up how I was going to go about training in a big way. And I did need to get through to him because he's an adult, 55 lb. dog and he needed to be trained and quickly if he was going to be safe and be able to live in my house without driving everyone else crazy.
Enter clicker training.
I jumped in with both feet and began on my own without a trainer (though Melanie is right, you should get one and I did get one subsequently to help us take it to the next level). The short story is this: Marlowe went from a totally untrained, confused little dog to earning his CGC in 6 months with clicker training. We did the basic stuff (sit, down, loose leash walking, a couple tricks) at home on our own, then took a class to get all the CGC skills we didn't already have (stay, focus, better reliability). Marlowe now is in intermediate level agility class and I may compete with him in the future. He has come an incredibly long way from the dog who didn't even wag his tail when I came home from work or talked to him (for months, he never wagged his tail in response to humans). He's a great partner and friend.
As soon as I began to see the results Marlowe was having with the clicker, I started moving Conrad that direction too, and I was absolutely ashamed and apalled to see the true result of how I'd trained him before. If you've had traditionally trained dogs only, it's hard to see the difference until you get a clicker dog and put them side by side and all of a sudden you see this dramatic difference in their entire demeanor and outlook on life. I saw it almost instantly. Playing the "box game" that Melanie described with Marlowe was a hoot--he was creative and happy and having fun with it. Doing the same with Conrad (at first--he's much better now) was just sad. He wouldn't do anything, he wouldn't move, all he knew was that he'd better sit and not move or mommy might punish him. So that's what he did. In traditional training, you are focusing so much on what you don't want the dog to do. In clicker training your focus should be on getting your dog to do things. To someone who's never had a clicker dog, Conrad sitting and not moving seems like "a good dog". Until you see what a clicker dog does in comparison.
I had two rescue dogs before Marlowe, both of whom I trained "the ole fashioned way" and because both were/are tractable, biddable, people-oriented dogs, it kinda sorta worked. They were both "good enough" and because I loathed training them (as did they) because it involved having to be so harsh and mean to them, "good enough" was where we stopped.
Then I rescued Marlowe, a two year old coonhound from a working background. He had never lived in a house before, he'd never been a pet before, he knew no obedience, was not housetrained, and absolutely was lost in this new world he was in. He is not a biddable dog, he was not particularly people-oriented. He latched on to me and my husband more out of desperation than because he naturally wanted to be around people. He's stubborn as an ox, serious as a heart attack, and he doesn't care about my praise, and he doesn't really care about my punishments either. At least, not about the punishments I'm actually willing to dole out. He's not a dog who's super into the social hierarchy either--he's out for himself and himself only and the whole alpha/beta/submissive/dominant game is not part of his wiring. That pretty much took off the table all the forms of training I was already familiar with (punishments-based, and dominance-based).
It took me about two weeks of having Marlowe to realize that I was not going to get through to him without changing up how I was going to go about training in a big way. And I did need to get through to him because he's an adult, 55 lb. dog and he needed to be trained and quickly if he was going to be safe and be able to live in my house without driving everyone else crazy.
Enter clicker training.
I jumped in with both feet and began on my own without a trainer (though Melanie is right, you should get one and I did get one subsequently to help us take it to the next level). The short story is this: Marlowe went from a totally untrained, confused little dog to earning his CGC in 6 months with clicker training. We did the basic stuff (sit, down, loose leash walking, a couple tricks) at home on our own, then took a class to get all the CGC skills we didn't already have (stay, focus, better reliability). Marlowe now is in intermediate level agility class and I may compete with him in the future. He has come an incredibly long way from the dog who didn't even wag his tail when I came home from work or talked to him (for months, he never wagged his tail in response to humans). He's a great partner and friend.
As soon as I began to see the results Marlowe was having with the clicker, I started moving Conrad that direction too, and I was absolutely ashamed and apalled to see the true result of how I'd trained him before. If you've had traditionally trained dogs only, it's hard to see the difference until you get a clicker dog and put them side by side and all of a sudden you see this dramatic difference in their entire demeanor and outlook on life. I saw it almost instantly. Playing the "box game" that Melanie described with Marlowe was a hoot--he was creative and happy and having fun with it. Doing the same with Conrad (at first--he's much better now) was just sad. He wouldn't do anything, he wouldn't move, all he knew was that he'd better sit and not move or mommy might punish him. So that's what he did. In traditional training, you are focusing so much on what you don't want the dog to do. In clicker training your focus should be on getting your dog to do things. To someone who's never had a clicker dog, Conrad sitting and not moving seems like "a good dog". Until you see what a clicker dog does in comparison.
I second everything said here.
There is a bad and an ugly however . . . its doing it badly. Its better than doing other training methods badly, but I have met dogs that were "clicker trained" by someone who had no idea what they were doing, and thought that "postive" means no boundaries. So that's the bad and the ugly. If you're going this on your own, look on some of the other threads in this forum for recommendations of good training books. And run screaming from "postive" training books that include such happy new agey ideas as ignoring all misbehavor or never saying "no" (or any other negative don't-do-that phrase . . . I know that "no" itself is often excluded simply because many dogs have already learned to ignore it.)
There is a bad and an ugly however . . . its doing it badly. Its better than doing other training methods badly, but I have met dogs that were "clicker trained" by someone who had no idea what they were doing, and thought that "postive" means no boundaries. So that's the bad and the ugly. If you're going this on your own, look on some of the other threads in this forum for recommendations of good training books. And run screaming from "postive" training books that include such happy new agey ideas as ignoring all misbehavor or never saying "no" (or any other negative don't-do-that phrase . . . I know that "no" itself is often excluded simply because many dogs have already learned to ignore it.)
I second everything that has already been posted. I love clicker training and the results when done correctly are amazing.
here are a couple of clicker sites, excellent reading.
www.clickersolutions.com and www.clickertraining.com
Nothing like having a 'thinking' dog, agreed 'Permissive is not Positive'.
here are a couple of clicker sites, excellent reading.
www.clickersolutions.com and www.clickertraining.com
Nothing like having a 'thinking' dog, agreed 'Permissive is not Positive'.
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I can relate to this SO much. I never realized how much I'd destroyed my dog's ability to think for himself until I saw the difference between my compulsion-trained dogs and my +R-trained dogs. My first GSD, Dawson, would stand there miserably when we would play games, unsure about what to do unless I specifically gave him a command. My second GSD, Trick, who was +R trained from day one, would gleefully join in on activities and try to figure out what I wanted without fear of being shut down because she may not do quite the "right" thing. And I really thought I had it all figured out when I was training Dawson - I had an extremely obedient, responsive dog who looked to me for everything. The comparison sure was eye-opening though .. and shocking. I apologized to Dawson the rest of his life.
I also agree on the other comment about positive reinforcement training resulting in dogs that are out-of-control if not done correctly. +R is NOT supposed to mean "permissive" - you still set boundaries and let the dog know that they need to stay within those boundaries. +R doesn't mean never using a correction .. most +R trainers I know, even those who are nearly 100% +R, still use some sort of "eht" or "nah" or "no" type verbal corrections. But the emphasis is NOT on what the dog does "wrong" but instead you look for what behaviors are offered that you like, and your constant reinforcement of those behaviors makes those behaviors happen more and by default the behaviors that are not reinforced tend to fade away.
It's a good method, any way you look at it.
Melanie and the gang
I also agree on the other comment about positive reinforcement training resulting in dogs that are out-of-control if not done correctly. +R is NOT supposed to mean "permissive" - you still set boundaries and let the dog know that they need to stay within those boundaries. +R doesn't mean never using a correction .. most +R trainers I know, even those who are nearly 100% +R, still use some sort of "eht" or "nah" or "no" type verbal corrections. But the emphasis is NOT on what the dog does "wrong" but instead you look for what behaviors are offered that you like, and your constant reinforcement of those behaviors makes those behaviors happen more and by default the behaviors that are not reinforced tend to fade away.
It's a good method, any way you look at it.
Melanie and the gang
Big word on that. Done right, this is a proven effective form of training. Done wrong, it's just as ineffective as anything done wrong. All of the faults in my dogs' behavior are my fault entirely for not being a better trainer, not the fault of the method. Or, er, my husband's fault for constantly (not on purpose, but he seems to have a knack for it) undermining all the good training I have done.
The big pitfalls I've seen with people doing positive training wrong are inadvertently making the rewards in to bribes, or making the food or toy held in the hand part of the cue (ie, the dog won't work if the reward isn't visible before the command is given), and people having trouble fading the reinforcers. And sometimes getting the impression that positive training means you just let the dog do whatever and ignore all bad behavior. Doing positive training means you have to be proactive instead of reactive when training, and that can be tough to get in the habit of at first.
The big pitfalls I've seen with people doing positive training wrong are inadvertently making the rewards in to bribes, or making the food or toy held in the hand part of the cue (ie, the dog won't work if the reward isn't visible before the command is given), and people having trouble fading the reinforcers. And sometimes getting the impression that positive training means you just let the dog do whatever and ignore all bad behavior. Doing positive training means you have to be proactive instead of reactive when training, and that can be tough to get in the habit of at first.
oh boy do I agree with this!!! (not that I haven't agreed with all the other correct and great info 
I have one student that was taught that positive was luring (with the expected results), it has taken her and I 3 hard years to retrain her and those ingrained habits. The joke around here for a while, was me having to frisk her before she was allowed in the ring It got to the point that I would 'fine' her a dollar for each time I caught her luring, but if she went a month without luring she earned back her money. After a month I kept it, if she continued to lure
I encouraged her to take Rally lessons (I haven't competed in it yet, and although I do know the basics, there were better qualified people), sadly they lure, she fell back into those old habits with glee. When I found out, we managed to crib it before it got to much of a hold lol.
I have one student that was taught that positive was luring (with the expected results), it has taken her and I 3 hard years to retrain her and those ingrained habits. The joke around here for a while, was me having to frisk her before she was allowed in the ring
It got to the point that I would 'fine' her a dollar for each time I caught her luring, but if she went a month without luring she earned back her money. After a month I kept it, if she continued to lure I encouraged her to take Rally lessons (I haven't competed in it yet, and although I do know the basics, there were better qualified people), sadly they lure, she fell back into those old habits with glee. When I found out, we managed to crib it before it got to much of a hold lol.
Wow!!! Such great feedback on this method!!I will be going forward with this method then. our first class is next sat Jan 12.I am really looking forward to this. Wish i could start now. But work has my time tied up til then.I watched a few vids on it and i see where you could really mess up if your timing and rewards are off.