Bites when we try to move him

[TheCasa]

My 10 1/2 week old Great Dane, Guinness,

has begun a rather disturbing practice of growling angrily and biting my wife and I when we try to pick him up to move him. We're absolutely not hurting him at all. He lets us pick him up to load into the car, he sits in our laps during play time (well, he did...we're stopping that now, he's getting big), he doesn't mind being picked up, directed, etc... The problem comes when he decides that he doesn't want to go where we want him to. This ONLY happens when we try to bring him inside when he'd rather eat grass and roll around or at bed time when we want to put him in his crate for the night. He's got no problem with his crate. As long as it's in the same room with us, he'll go in there on his own, so that's not the problem. It's been well over 100 degrees in the shade here lately, so it's not healthy or comfortable for any of us to be outside for extended periods except before dawn and after dark, which is when we do our walks.

We're practicing strict NILIF. Unless I am mistaken, this means that when we want him to move, he moves. When he bites us like this, we very calmly (well, as calmly as possible...the dog just bit ya) put him in his crate and walk out of the room for a couple minutes. Then we'll go get him out and play with him for a while. I feel like we're in a catch 22 here. I don't want to turn his crate into punishment, and I can't just ignore him to do whatever it is he's doing. He knows he's biting because he's gotten the hang of bite inhibition. When we play, he "side-mouths" us...I mean he opens his mouth and puts the side of his mouth on our hands, arms, etc without touching teeth. This is a bite and he knows what he's doing. This is not play growling for attention, he's quite good at that..and fun. He's growling as a warning to not try to move him. At 10 weeks old, it's no big deal..but it will be soon.

We're starting puppy classes next week and we train at home at least once a day. We're reinforcing the attention and learning down and stand. He sits on his own every time we start talking to him...hard to teach that one lol. We'll probably start the "come game" this weekend, but he is pretty good at coming when we call him anyway.

Any advice or criticism is welcome.

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

[Charliesmommy]

I'm no trainer but it sounds to me like you need to get a behaviorist involved. Showing aggression when he doesn't get his way is not a good thing.

I think you have the NILIF theory a bit wrong. NILIF means nothing in life is free. This means that he does not get anything he wants without first doing something to earn it. At treat time, he must sit before he gets a treat. At play time, he must sit (roll over, down, whatever you are working on) before the ball gets thrown, etc. This is not the same as him obeying your commands - it just means that he does not get what he wants without first doing something for it.

Hopefully some others here will have more suggestions for you. Goodluck!

 

[TheCasa]

Well, if that's the case, he's doing pretty well with that aspect. He always sits while we prepare and place his food and waits to be released. He does his tricks or behaviors before he gets his treats, all that stuff.

I'm a little worried about this biting thing though. It really seems to occur when he's tired or wants to stay outside.... otherwise he's a very well behaved, loving, pleasing dog...

 

[Charliesmommy]

Someone will chime in with some help for you. Doberluv and Otch1 are both very experienced so if you don't get any answers, you might PM one of them.

 

[TheCasa]

Can anyone else offer some advice? Are we just experiencing normal puppy behavior? Is he just trying to let us know that he just doesn't want to do what we're asking him to?

Either way, has anyone had any experience or ideas for how to nip this before he's big enough that we can't just pick him up anyway and crate him for a time out? It seems to be getting better, but it still occurs.

Thanks again!

 

[squirtsmom]

First of all ten weeks is pretty young. when the dog bites you is it hard? Not possibly play biting? Sounds like it's not. You are right, if it continues it is going to be a real p roblem. I have a Great Pyrenees pup, she does alot of mouthing but never biting. Hang in there, someone here will give you the advice you need.

 

[BoxMeIn21]

I wouldn't use the crate for punishment at all - especially since you say he has an issue with it.
While I agree that he does need to give way if you ask, you need to make it rewarding for him instead. You need to give him an incentive to move, and make sure he knows he's fantastic for doing so. Give him a cue, like "off" and lure him from his spot with a treat - when he does, treat and praise him like there is no tomorrow. Dogs do what works for them, you are going to be more successful when there is a reason/reward for him to do what you ask.

 

[TheCasa]

I wouldn't use the crate for punishment at all - especially since you say he has an issue with it.
While I agree that he does need to give way if you ask, you need to make it rewarding for him instead. You need to give him an incentive to move, and make sure he knows he's fantastic for doing so. Give him a cue, like "off" and lure him from his spot with a treat - when he does, treat and praise him like there is no tomorrow. Dogs do what works for them, you are going to be more successful when there is a reason/reward for him to do what you ask.

He doesn't have an issue with the crate. You must have misunderstood. He likes his crate. Further, he has very quickly picked up the "off" cue for things like the furniture, edge of the bathtub, etc. He's pretty good at "leave it" without any, what I would call, real training. He's "Give"ing pretty well also when he's found an unsuitable toy. He's very much housebroken even. He hasn't had an accident in a week now, and even that was at the door because he didn't realize early enough that he needed out and we couldn't get to the door fast enough. He's really a model pup, aside from this...which is why it's concerning. Do you consider putting him in his crate when we're unable to watch him close enough punishment? When he's calm (70% of the time), we don't really need to crate him when we can't have an eye on him constantly. Mornings when we're getting ready for work are the biggest challenge and when he seems to want the most attention because he's got energy to burn. That's why we added the morning walk. Maybe it's not long/vigorous enough, but first thing in the morning is rough on all of us..including him. He does a lot of sitting and looking at us like "really? I just woke up and you want me to go for a walk? I'm still tired..." Since he's a GD and we don't want to feed him too soon after a walk though, we like to do it as early as possible and feed him as close to when we leave for work as possible. With the crazy heat, it's not feasible to feed, wait, walk, leave. If we did that, we'd be sweaty when we got to work...

Our morning routine is as follows:
- get up 5:30ish, outside business
- 20 minute walk
- he plays with toys in the bathroom while we shower and get ready
- ~7:00 he gets breakfast
- he plays pretty much by himself till 7:30ish
- outside business and crate for the morning

It seems like he just needs to get used the the morning routine, but during that playing in the bathroom, he gets very adamant about wanting us to play with him...

First of all ten weeks is pretty young. when the dog bites you is it hard? Not possibly play biting? Sounds like it's not. You are right, if it continues it is going to be a real p roblem. I have a Great Pyrenees pup, she does alot of mouthing but never biting. Hang in there, someone here will give you the advice you need.

I agree, 10 weeks is young. He'll be 11 weeks on monday, not that that matters. This is not play biting. He does that all the time also, but he's pretty dang good at his bite inhibition. Usually play biting is putting the side of his mouth on hands, arms, etc and just touching his teeth with no pressure. This is him trying to assert himself...at least that's the way it seems to me. He doesn't hurt when he bites, though and has never broken skin. He does put enough pressure to let us know that he's not fooling around though. The "big" growl and bark with the bite leads me to believe that he's trying to dominate. Does that sound right? I kinda equate it to a teenager yelling at his parents when told that they can't go out tonight. I guess I should be thankful that he's going through a stage. I'll try to lure him instead of physically move him and follow that with praise and treats. I guess it's just the alpha in me that wants him to do what I want whether or not he's conditioned to do so.

Thanks for the advice...any other ideas are more than welcome!!

ps, we start puppy classes next week, although he doesn't come till week after next. next week is orientation for parents.

 

[bubbatd]

Wish I could chime in . Keep us posted .

 

[Doberluv]

I agree with Boxmein. I'd try to avoid luring with a treat though if at all possible. If you're present and can keep an eye on him, keep a leash on him. But only when supervising. He could strangle on it. You can, in fact set up a training "session" where by he's on the couch with the leash on. He doesn't know the cue word yet, right? Like "off?" At first, coax him off the couch without saying anything. Use a squeeky toy and show him a nice dog bed on the floor to be comfy on. Click/treat (if you're clicker training him) the second he's off the couch. Use a high value treat; fresh meat or tiny pieces of mozerella cheese.)Then invite him back on the couch. Yeah! This is a game. You're in a happy, cheery, playful mood. Now it's time to coax him off again with the squeeky toy...let him get the toy when he goes on his doggie bed an another treat. Do it a few times, back and forth. He'll see this as a game. Now, start adding your cue word, "Off" (playful, short, staccato voice, just to keep you in the game mood) WHILE he's jumping off, while he's in mid air. Then invite him back onto the couch again. And let him enjoy it for a while.

After he's gotten onto the game and is enjoying jumping off so he can play with you and get yummy treats, try in another location or another piece of furnture or whatever. Instead of thinking you have to handle him in order that he moves, teach him to move himself. HOWEVER....this is important: He DOES need to become tolerant of manipulating him as long as you're gentle. He needs to have your hands run all over him, sometimes pressing a little bit here, gently manuvering a leg there. Do it every day in different rooms and contexts. Brush him, touch inside his ears, brush his teeth, lift his tail and do something. Get him use to touching and handling in lots of ways. Make absoutely certain that it is all associated with a pleasant time and very tasty treats simultaneously every few seconds....again, a playful game-like mood. Dogs respond wonderfully to game playing. They're incredibly playful, youthful creatures, even when adults. Use that to your advantage. Be confident and matter of fact, but also cheery and rewarding. Give your pup a reason to comply....a reason that really works for him. That will then work for you. Let us know how he does.

Later, once he's very accustomed to these things, these games and is very reliable, you can start fading the use of the squeeky toy and treat. Put them on a fixed ratio of say....every third time for a while until you see that he's still complying even without the treats every time. Then space them out more but vary the number of responses required to get the treat. Like....every 3rd time, then every 6th, then very 2nd, then every 8th. Then space them out even more. Pretty soon you'll only need to use them occassionally to keep him humble.

Another thing that should be worked on is teaching him that grabbing his collar is a good thing. Gently touch his collar and neck and feed him. Then hold onto the collar and feed him, then hold the collar rather closely to you an feed. This is over days and days. Then as long as he's completely comfortable, progress to grabbing the collar a little swiftly and holding him close to you and feed him. All yummy treats and praise. Never ever use your hands on your dog for anything other than good things. Associate things that dogs are naturally wary of, like grabbing collars and neck area with ONLY good, yummy, wonderful things. If you ever have to grab your dog's collar quickly or roughly, you want to condition him to not being startled or defensive. It can prevent a re-directed or defense bite to you. Practice, pactice.

 

[CountryGrl]

The problem comes when he decides that he doesn't want to go where we want him to. This ONLY happens when we try to bring him inside when he'd rather eat grass and roll around or at bed time when we want to put him in his crate for the night.

My puppy likes to pretend that he has suddenly lost his hearing at times too, especially when I am ready to go somewhere and he's eating grass or chewing on a stick. I'm finding a few different things motivate him to move.

1) If it's a stick that he's chewing on I take that away from him and use it to lure him to the house. He gets good boys and treats when he gets to the porch or in the house.

2) A favorite toy will do it if I can remember to bring it out with me. He loves his squeaky hedghog!

3) A really yummy treat like dried chicken or cheese. Sometime I have to actually tap him on the head with a finger to get his attention so that he'll even look up to smell the treat though.


The first thing that dog's think when you try to get them to do something is "what's in it for me" so you have to make whatever it is that you want them to do more appealing than what they are currently doing. Either make it more fun with toys and attitude or with training tools such as yummy tidbits of chicken or cheese.

He doesn't have an issue with the crate. You must have misunderstood. He likes his crate. Further, he has very quickly picked up the "off" cue for things like the furniture, edge of the bathtub, etc.

It's great that your dog already knows the off command. My puppy is 14 weeks and that is one of the commands that he prefers to ignore.

 

[Doberluv]

My puppy is 14 weeks and that is one of the commands that he prefers to ignore.

Make it REALLY work FOR him and you'll see him change his tune. LOL.

Personally, I'd keep the pup on a leash or long line outside until you teach him a reliable recall. There are lots of threads here about that....some neat tips to make sure you're not inadvertantly punishing him for coming...like calling him to come and ending all the fun. He's having fun outside and that's why he doesn't want to come in. So, when you get him in, give him a good treat and continue some fun and games inside for a few minutes. Teach him that coming when called is better than not coming. Don't use your cue word, "come" unless you can enforce it or unless he's already coming and right next to you. Hold his collar and feed/praise him. Avoid, if possible luring or bribing him to come inside. Those things will become the "cue." Reward him AFTER he comes.

Anyhow, do a search here on teaching a recall and there are good things online too.

 

[CountryGrl]

The puppy is fine as long as he's not chewing on grass or dirt or when he decides that he wants to stare down the cat. That's when his hearing gets selective and I do keep him on a leash when he's not in his play yard.


If the puppy is laying there chewing on whatever and is completely ignoring me even if he is on the leash how do you not lure him to come and wait until he does come to praise him and give him treats? Even if he is on the leash he ignores me and it. I have the same problem that TheCasa does in that if I pick him up and carry him in it aggravates him. He doesn't growl at me but he starts throwing a fit.


Teaching recall is fine and I'm working on that in the house and out in the yard but I use treats and when he knows that I have a treat and I call him he does come. He even comes without treats. There are just times when he decides that he can't hear me, at all.

 

[Doberluv]

I know...it's hard when they're so young and their little predatory instincts are kicking in. Their cortex (the thinking part of their brain) kind of takes a back seat while their limbic system (the autonomic nervous system) revs up, getting ready for the kill. This is all practice with puppies. It's how they survived way back when, when they were wild. So, yes, they can't hear you but it's not on account of being stubborn or naughty. It's a real, honest to goodness function which is advantageous to any animal to be able to eat and escape.

That said, it takes time for a puppy to be trained. Try not to give any cues or commands that you can't get the puppy to do or he further learns that the cue means whatever it is he's doing....like running away instead of coming or "ignoring" you. You can go up to him and I don't see anything wrong with squeeking a squeeky toy or jiggling a rope toy to re-direct him and get his attention back on you. But I would wait until he comes a few feet with the leash attached, but without pulling him...wait until he comes to you to give him a high value food treat. Save some of your ammunition for his coming. LOL. Don't lure him with the food.

As you're doing, it is best to do your training first, where there are very few, if any distractions. Get him in the habit of coming and learning that coming is always, always the greatest thing, better than not coming. It's so good, in fact, that the fun doesn't stop the minute he comes. Nothing rotten ever happens in association with coming, like clipping nails or ending the fun outside. After some time, you can add a small distraction and get him use to coming in spite of it. Your reinforcer will have to be better than the distraction is to your dog every time. Reiforce every correct response for a long time...until he becomes regular and reliable. Then go to a variable reward schedule to phase out the treats. You can read more about that later.

But, just like human babies or toddlers, growing up takes time and learning what works best in life is a process. Training never stops and dogs continue learning forever and practicing.

Keep up the good work!

 

[TheCasa]

It's great that your dog already knows the off command. My puppy is 14 weeks and that is one of the commands that he prefers to ignore.

He doesn't quite know it yet, but he's getting it. This kinda goes to Doberluv's suggestion about the game from the couch. My guy isn't allowed on any of the furniture, and just simply placing his paws on the floor and saying off when they hit the floor, then praising him has brought him a long way to learning the command. Maybe it's just luck, but if it works, I'm happy. I'm really astonished at how quickly he picks most everything up.

Instead of thinking you have to handle him in order that he moves, teach him to move himself. HOWEVER....this is important: He DOES need to become tolerant of manipulating him as long as you're gentle. He needs to have your hands run all over him, sometimes pressing a little bit here, gently manuvering a leg there. Do it every day in different rooms and contexts. Brush him, touch inside his ears, brush his teeth, lift his tail and do something. Get him use to touching and handling in lots of ways.

Another thing that should be worked on is teaching him that grabbing his collar is a good thing. Gently touch his collar and neck and feed him. Then hold onto the collar and feed him, then hold the collar rather closely to you an feed. This is over days and days. Then as long as he's completely comfortable, progress to grabbing the collar a little swiftly and holding him close to you and feed him.

He's VERY accustomed to being touched, pet, and handled in virtually every way possible. He's got no problem with us touching his ears, tail, even his "boys." He never offers any kind of a bite other than that he thinks we're playing usually. He's really calm and tollarant to any of it...even holding his collar. We haven't grabbed it, etc, but we've only had him a couple weeks, so we can't do it all at once...hello overload.

What we're dealing with has nothing to do his comfort with us touching or manipulating him. This doesn't happen because we've startled him or he didn't see us coming.

Normally it starts with us calling him, him laying down on his side to chew grass, clothes, etc while watching us..almost like he's egging us on. We play "call the dog" games (without using a "come" command, just to reinforce him learning his name) from all over the house. He knows his name and that when we call it, we want his attention. He's conditioned to giving his attention in all but the most distracting environments. I think he's simply entering into a battle of wills with us. His will is to continue eating grass outside in the HOT sun, or to not go to bed...ours is the opposite. I agree with you, Dober, that it's not a good idea to lure him into doing what we want...because we want him to do it because we asked. I do expect to reward after he behaves as desired.

How do we win the battle of wills though? I wish it was as simple as ignoring him for not doing what we want....that's reinforcing him to enter into battles of will with us. We have to win the battle, but I'm tired of getting bitten and I want him to want to conform to my will because it's in his interest. I guess the real question is, how do I show him that doing what I want is in his interest without reinforcing his strong will, nor luring him and thus conditioning him to expect a bribe to do what I want?....

Catch-22 /ˈkætʃˌtwɛntiˈtu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kach-twen-tee-too] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural Catch-22's, Catch-22s.
1. a frustrating situation in which one is trapped by contradictory regulations or conditions.
2. any illogical or paradoxical problem or situation; dilemma.
3. a condition, regulation, etc., preventing the resolution of a problem or situation; catch.

 

[angelzeus]

i not a professional but i would say that you need some help from one this is going to be a very big dog and he needs to listen when he is asked to do something biting and growling at just one thing can lead to many other bad behaviors please get this poor pup the help he and you guys all need

 

[TheCasa]

If it comes to that, I wouldn't hesitate to get a behaviorist involved. However, I'm not going to jump the gun on that. He's a 10 week old puppy who's learning his place in the world and in our home. I think it's a little much to ask him to always behave the way we want in less than three weeks with us. We're shaping his behavior and personality here. I wouldn't send my hypothetical 2 or 3 yr old child to a psychologist for throwing a temper tantrum because I said to come in from the sandbox. I probably wouldn't even make a call after the 3rd or 4th time. Why would I do the same with a dog of the same relative age? If that kid kept throwing fits at age 6, I might think about that call. If we are unable after a sufficient amount of time to mold his behavior to match our expectations and he continues this practice, I won't hesitate to get a behaviorist involved.

Here, I'm simply asking for others advice from experience with similar situations and for help in raising the kind of dog we expect him to be. We're not in a crisis here, but at you pointed out, we want to get this straightened out while he still weighs 23 lbs (as of this morning) rather than when he's 150.

 

[BoxMeIn21]

Great advice by Doberluv, much better explaination than I offered up!

 

[Doberluv]

Nah.....not better Boxmein, just more wordy and rambling. LOL.

 

[TheCasa]

Good news on the Guinness front. He seems to have all but stopped this habit. He only did it a couple times over the weekend, and those times where when he was very focused on a piece of grass or something and we simply didn't have time for him to finish playing. He seems to be responding to the end the play time, go to time out for a bit, thing.

Thanks to everyone for the advice. He starts puppy kindergarten next wednesday...but I think he's got a head start on them.