Automatic sit on recall-advice?

[lives4dogshows]

I'm working my brittany up to competing in AKC obedience trials. We are having a bit of a problem with the 'sit in front' portion of the recall. I have trained dogs for competive obedience before but for some reason I can't figure out what is going on (more than likely something I am doing and he is just confused)

Here's what happens; I call him to me, he comes happily trotting up to me and sits...about two feet away. (another problem is that when my hands are at my sides he wants to automatically finish, but that is where your hands are supposed to be at the trial during a recall I do believe) So I try to coax him closer to me but he either gets confused and plops on the ground or tries to do a finish. (He's trained to do a flip finish.)

I have not been able to figure out how to get him to sit right in front of me. To coax him near me I know I end up bending over at the waist a bit and holding my hands in front of me at waist level with a treat, all things that I can't do in the ring. He has the idea he just won't sit close enough.

I use a clicker and a target stick most of the time so I thought maybe I could hold the target stick really close to my waist and he would come touch it and sit. He comes and touches the tip but and sits when I ask but he takes a step back before doing so.

That's another problem we have, I've never had a dog who takes a step backwards before they sit, verses just butting their rear on the ground wherever they are. Even when he seems to be right in front of me after a recall after he sits he somehow ends up too far away. He is extremely long-legged for a britt and is very long through the loins...

Sorry if all this seems confusing, I'm not all with it today and trying to concentrate while your little cousins dart in and out of the room demanding different things is...difficult

Thank you for any advice, greatly appreciated!!

 

[corgipower]

He needs to learn to tuck into a sit, rather than rocking back. Here's an article on how to teach it.

If he is stopping to far away, rather then bending forward to lure him in ~ the bending forward signals him to move away from you ~ step back as you lure him closer. The stepping back will encourage him to step forward towards you. Another thing you can do is work on the coming close separately fromt he sitting. As he is coming to you, give him a release word and throw a ball between your legs behind you. So he has to come to you, centered, and then past to get the ball. And then to work on the sits themselves, work on them without the distance of the actual coming to you.

I hope that made some sense?

 

[elegy]

you're certainly not alone!

find front games have helped with luce. she still does it, especially when she's got the dumbbell, but it's definitely improved.

 

[lives4dogshows]

much thanks to the both of you! I will check out those links on the double!

~I realized that the bending forward was making him back away but for the life of me I can't stop it before I do it. It's so ingrained in me! If I manage to not bend forward at the waist my head moves forward.

Thank you very much for replying!!


Also I know that some people say "(name) Come" when the dog first starts out for a drop on recall and then after the dog has dropped they say "(name) Front." Is there an advantage to doing this?

One more question (sorry) I have thought about switching my cue word to "front' for the competitive recall, because recently it has come to my attention when I call my dogs just to get them to come closer to me and not necessarily sit I still use the word, "come." This is probably confusing to my dogs who might not know which I want them to do, come directly to me and sit in front of me, or come closer in general.

Should I change my word for the times I want my dog to come and sit in front of me? I know that retraining can be difficult...sorry for my constant questions but thank you for your wonderful advice!

 

[corgipower]

If you use "come" in a non-formal sense, than yes, I would use a different command for the formal -- come straight, fast, and sit in front of me --recall. Although a lot of it also is body language. I use come for a formal recall and c'mon or c'mere for informal, but also when it's not formal, I'm not standing still with my arms at my sides and my tone of voice is different. But it is easier on the dog if you use two distinctly different words.

As for the "front" vs. "come" in the drop on recall, the benefit is a little bit of legal double commanding. The dog learns "front" as sit in front of me, and then "come" is used for the action of coming to me without the sit, so in the ring, the "come" means to come towards me. And then the "front" means sit in front of me, and in order to do that the dog needs to come to you. You just have to be careful not to always do a drop when you use "come" or the dog will begin to anticipate the drop. I use "come" for both parts of the drop on recall, too many commands confuses the handler

no need to apologize for the questions!!

 

[lives4dogshows]

I always used "come" twice for my drop-on-recalls as well, I was just wondering why some handlers used two different words. I figured it was what you said but I wasn't sure. Thank you!

 

[adojrts]

I was hoping Dekka would see this, but I'll tell you what she did with her OB dogs. For the front sit, she taught them to target a knee or between her knees after they sat, of course using a clicker. You may want to send her a PM to ask for more details.
For when you bend forward, have someone put a leash onto you belt loops and stand behind you. If you start to bend the leash will remind you!!
I have used this method when teaching agility to students that just can't seem to hold a line without moving or bending, works great and it always has us cracking up.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

This is a really common problem to see in recalls so don't feel bad about asking the questions - I see it ALL the time (and have been through it myself).

I don't know how you taught the recall, so I'm just going to throw some ideas out there.

My first obedience dog had this problem and I had taught him the recall by just having him come to me. But he had a long body and would rock back on the sit, creating a gap between where I was and where he was. It was in part because he didn't really learn to come all the way to me, and in part because he rocked back instead of bringing his hind end up to his front.

So now I teach things differently. A recall is taught without any sit for a long time. I have the dog actually race through my legs to get a treat or toy. I want the dog to understand that a recall means ALL the way to me and not just close enough to sit in front.

And then separately I teach a proper sit, where the dog learns to bring the haunches forward. This is really important and a lot of dog learn the wrong sit (which doesn't matter nearly as much if you have a little dog, but with a big dog it can mean failure in the competition ring). I use a treat at the nose and then with my other hand I very lightly scoop the hind end forward while encouraging them to sit, marking and rewarding as soon as they move the hind legs forward into the sit.

Once they know a good proper sit, and they know how to race to me and through my legs on a recall, I combine the two. I call my dog, but instead of having my feet apart for them to run through, I keep my feet together and before the dog reaches me I give my sit command and I use a treat to draw the dog's nose upwards so that they slide into a sit right in front of me. And then I keep my hands at my waist so the dog has to reach for the treat (I don't spit a treat out away from me and I don't hand the treat to the dog - the dog has to push up against me to get to the treat).

Of course, the hands at the waist and the treat have to be faded, and I still alternate between the toy through the legs and the sit in order to keep the speed and enthusiasm there. Gradually I go to a treat in my mouth but I don't spit it out at the dog - I let it dribble out of my mouth and down my chest so that the dog has to be close to catch it.

With some dogs who have already developed a problem with rocking back or not coming close enough, you can try teaching a target by putting a piece of duct tape on your stomach (use an old shirt!) and then putting a dab of squeeze cheese on the tape. Teach the dog to target to the tape. Gradually phase out the cheese (add the reward after the dog touches) and then fade out the tape and the touch.

Whatever you do, keep in mind that it takes a LONG time for a dog to change an established habit. If he's already formed a habit of coming to you and sitting two feet away, you're going to want to take months to re-establish the new habit (and maybe change your command, too). Under moments of stress, dogs tend to revert to whatever they learned first especially if the new behavior is not really well formed. So you may see him responding and doing the new behavior and think he's got it, but until you've done that over and over for months he probably won't really have it ingrained in him like the first habit. And if you put him in the stress of competition before he's got it all really figured out, he may very well revert to the old behavior of stopping farther away.

On the drop on recall - I've never used two different commands. I definitely have a command that means competition recall and a command that means "come over here near me but you don't have to sit in front". But for the drop, I've never actually seen it make any difference when different commands are used and it just means that the handler has to remember more commands (as does the dog). So my recall is "Come - platz - come". It's worked for all the dogs I've trained in open so far, anyhow!

Good luck!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[lives4dogshows]

Adjorts-Hehe, I can see where attaching a leash would work effectively and provide entertainment. I'm out at my grandparents for our christmas celebration and I can already picture my grandpa having a grand time with that. He would probably jerk the leash backwards!

IliammasQuest-Thank you those are some really great ideas. Wow I feel so inexperienced around here lol! Thank you very much!!

 

[lives4dogshows]

I just had a bit of an "ah ha" moment here. This is probably something I should have realized long ago but hey it's me lol!

When you train a dog a behavior like a recall and you work the entire thing at the same time the dog can learn incomplete portions of the behavior, like not wanting to sit in front of you and going directly to a finish. If I wait to teach the finish until my dog has an incredibly solid sit at my front he will be less likely to skip that step altogether. Right? Maybe?

With other things I train I do work in a very step-by-step process, I'm surprised I didn't realize what I was doing sooner. I really need to spend more time analyzing what I'm doing. It's amazing my dogs ever learn anything!

 

[adojrts]

Adjorts-Hehe, I can see where attaching a leash would work effectively and provide entertainment. I'm out at my grandparents for our christmas celebration and I can already picture my grandpa having a grand time with that. He would probably jerk the leash backwards!

IliammasQuest-Thank you those are some really great ideas. Wow I feel so inexperienced around here lol! Thank you very much!!

I don't compete in Obedience and I have no idea whether the 'leash method' would work or even if it should be tried, but I threw it out there at any rate.
And your right if nothing else it is entertaining The last time I used it, the 'leashed' student was cracking up so bad, she couldn't handle her dog on any level.......so it was almost a bust lol.

 

[doberkim]

I don't put my dog training in sequences, or try not to. I rarely put my fronts and finishes together - if I want to work fronts, I work them and just break my dog out while still in the front position.

If I want to work finishes, my dog sits wherever they are and I put myself in the front position and then do the finish. Too much recall-front-finish work makes a dog anticipate, as you have experienced.

Melanie gave you some great advice. Physically I think some dogs are at a disadvantage. Rah will never have as tight a tuck sit as other dogs, but he still does rock back on occassion. However he is never far enough away from me that I couldn't touch him

 

[corgipower]

I don't put my dog training in sequences, or try not to. I rarely put my fronts and finishes together - if I want to work fronts, I work them and just break my dog out while still in the front position.

If I want to work finishes, my dog sits wherever they are and I put myself in the front position and then do the finish. Too much recall-front-finish work makes a dog anticipate, as you have experienced.

exactly what i was about to say

 

[lives4dogshows]

Thank you! Yes I think you're right about some dogs being at a disadvantage physically. I guess I just never noticed the "rock" sit verses the "tuck" sit before because the other dogs I worked with never rocked into a sit for whatever reason. Luck on my part I guess.

I will start doing that, not working the stuff together! My poor guy, I have a lot to do to unconfuse him! Sigh. Oh well at least I have starting points now!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I just had a bit of an "ah ha" moment here. This is probably something I should have realized long ago but hey it's me lol!

When you train a dog a behavior like a recall and you work the entire thing at the same time the dog can learn incomplete portions of the behavior, like not wanting to sit in front of you and going directly to a finish. If I wait to teach the finish until my dog has an incredibly solid sit at my front he will be less likely to skip that step altogether. Right? Maybe?

With other things I train I do work in a very step-by-step process, I'm surprised I didn't realize what I was doing sooner. I really need to spend more time analyzing what I'm doing. It's amazing my dogs ever learn anything!

That was a VERY good "ah-ha" moment! Yes, we all tend to try to group behaviors together too soon and for the dog there's often a series of behaviors they need to learn. For example, for the recall: the dog needs to stay; and then come to you briskly; then stop and sit in front in another stay; and then do the finish. So basically there are four behaviors that involve the one exercise. Each behavior is best trained separately until it's strong and then all four chained together into the full recall. I know that my first dogs just had to learn it all at once and it was hard on them. I now break everything apart. I start recalls as young as I can (at 8 weeks if I have the pup that young) and I try to build a TON of enthusiasm. I don't do any sit in front for months and months. Instead we play games where the dog does a front-sit really close and gets rewarded. That's a separate behavior done at a separate time. The stay is worked until it's a solid competition stay - calling your dog from a stay before they are really solid is only going to lead to problems in the dog understanding that they have to hold a stay for longer times in other exercises. And then the finish is done completely separate - in fact, I just tell my dog "stay" when in heel position, then I pivot in front so that I'm in the front position and teach the finish from there. I teach both a left and right finish as that helps keep the dog from later anticipating the finish to a particular side when we put it all together.

I like teaching in little short bursts and breaking the behaviors down into very small steps when I can. I find that the dog understands better and is more comfortable when I do this. And sometimes you have to adapt to a situation. My young chow, Khana, is learning the retrieve right now. She understands "take it" and is eager to run to a thrown dumbbell, but then she wants to pounce and throw it and run around it and back to me without the dumbbell before finally going to it and doing the boring part (picking it up and bringing it to me). She's highly entertaining but it's not quite what I want for competition! *L* So I've started breaking things down again. The other day I just stood patiently as she went through her comedy routine and then when she brought it to me I praised quietly but didn't give her a treat. Second time out, she did a brief pounce but then picked it up and started toward me - and I immediately said "YES!!! GOOD GIRL!!" and ran toward the treats. She dropped the dumbbell and raced over and I jackpotted her with several treats while praising the whole time. I didn't worry about her dropping the dumbbell because what I was looking for at that time (again, breaking down the behavior) was for her to pick up the dumbbell and start toward me with a minimum of play beforehand. And then on the third retrieve, she raced straight to the dumbbell, grabbed it up and raced back - and right before she got to me I again did the "YES!!!" and running to the treats. I'll continue to gradually expect her to bring the dumbbell and sit in front of me again, but I wanted her first to understand that she would be more highly reinforced if she did a straight-out and straight-back retrieve. Many people would be worried about allowing her to drop the dumbbell but positive reinforcement, done right, allows you leeway that more corrective training wouldn't. She has no fear of retrieving and I don't want her to. She's never been forced to retrieve - it's all been shaped from the time she was a puppy.

Breaking down behaviors becomes more and more natural the longer you train. It's actually pretty fun to work out the steps and to see your dog start thinking beyond the step you're on. Dogs that are taught this way are much better thinkers than dogs that are taught to respond to avoid correction.

Melanie and the gang

 

[lives4dogshows]

Yes, the more I thought about it (breaking down the behaviors) the more it made sense to me. It's going to be hard to totally revamp my way of thinking and training, especially the aspect of thinking of exercises in terms of how many behaviors comprise them. I should sit down and make a list of the basic obedience stuff and right down all the behaviors so that I know what I want to work seperately.

Can I start to work behaviors (like on the recall) seperately after I have already tried and failed to teach the dog the entire thing at once?

Another problem I have is that I have a cognitive learning disorder caused from a brain hemorrhage *sp* when I was born (was born three months too early) and at times I completely forget what I was doing. Last night I was working with my Brittany, just messing around to see what might work best for getting him started with a tuck sit and while working with him I kept repeatedly forgetting what I was doing.

In my mind I know that I am attempting to get a tuck sit but I would forget the difference between a "rock sit" and a "tuck sit" so I would refer to the printouts I had made and then go back to the dog...and forget it again. This got me frustrated. Part of my learning disorder is that my short term memory is not the greatest. I confuse myself very easily and in many ways act like an older person who can't remember the way to their favorite hair salon etc. The only problem is, I'm much younger and should not have this many problems, but alas I do.

My almost constant confusion I fear is wreaking havoc with my dogs. They can probably sense that I am frustrated and don't know what to do. Sometimes it is not a short-term thing, the forgetting that is, sometimes it will go on for days and I won't remember how to do something/the correct way somewhere etc. until someone happens to jog my memory. Usually that is fairly rare although I have had it happen with dog training before. I was teaching my Beagle how to free-stack and experimenting with different methods and in the middle of the session I forgot what I was going to do and it didn't come back to me for three days. You have no idea (unless you to suffer from this) how aggravated that makes me.

I also twist things in my mind which makes it hard for me to concentrate on what I'm doing, because once I get confused I bash myself for it. I don't know if any of that made sense. I guess basicallly I am wondering if the problems my learning disorder causes will cause huge problems with the progress of my dogs, especially if I forget the method I was using and randomly switch to another one and then remember what I was doing before later on.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[corgipower]

I guess basicallly I am wondering if the problems my learning disorder causes will cause huge problems with the progress of my dogs, especially if I forget the method I was using and randomly switch to another one and then remember what I was doing before later on.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

The more consistency there is in the training, the easier it is for the dog to learn, but many dogs do adapt.

It will cause inconsistencies in your dog, and confusion. As for how big a problem that will be depends on how well your dog adapts and what exactly your goals are.

I can't fully understand what you go through, but I can understand your frustrations. I have many physical limitations which make me very aggravated when I can't do what I want or what my dog needs.

Have you tried tape recording what you want to be working on and listening to it while you train? Many kudos to you.

Just remember that the important thing is to be having fun!