7.5 week old puppy, stubborn, it seems?

[Maxy24]

I also wanted to note something about rough housing since I said to do that to try to get him to bite. Don't be excessively rough make sure the pup sees it as a game. He is allowed to growl and thrash about his head and can even put his mouth around your arm or hand but as soon as he applies an unacceptable amount of pressure you use the NRM. NEVER PUNISH FOR GROWLING!

 

[bubbatd]

^^^^ disagree !!! Only play growling and tossing head is with a toy ..... no human attached !!

 

[Maxy24]

^^^^ disagree !!! Only play growling and tossing head is with a toy ..... no human attached !!

Well that's what i thought before but then there have been discussions here about bite inhibition and that the dog has to learn how hard is too hard. I'd like to here more opinions about this, I'll start a separate thread in the training section though. the topic has confused me so I'll gather more info on it.

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

wow thank you! I will read this over again. My friend taped for me the episode of Oprah which had the dog trainer on it, recently. do you know this trainer? I gues he has his own show on one of hte channels too!

it's hard to say....he bites when he plays. a couple tims a day he has a really nutty play time when he is just playing really hard and racing around. I could be playing with him with a toy, and he will play with it, and then turn around and mouth and play and grab my clothes and./or skin. Also with my 4 yaer old it's harder, the hem of her skirts are right at his mouth level. And she says No Biting! And pushes his head away. I am trying to teach her not to run from him .I always intervene if he won't stop, but she is learning to hand a toy to him. It's always during play.Although he will also mouth when he is not as hyper. We played on the floor last nite and i did let him mouth me a little but when he mouthed and bit too hard i did the OUCH thing and walked into the laundry room for 30 seconds. I had to do that twice.

For example tonight we played with him out on the front lawn. it was me, my daughter, and the 2 yr old across the street. My daughter brought out all his toys so they were everywhere, he was running around, we were trying to get him tired. He mouthed and grabbed skirts and me, since i was sitting on the ground, but there were tons of toys around to distract him with. I didn't use no or any other command, just got a toy and distracted him when he started nipping or mouthing. Then they went home and i cleaned up all the toys but he would not come in. The 2 yr old had spilled some kibbles on the lawn. So I went back out to get him, he was still pretty active, and picking the kibbles out of the lawn. I talked cutely to him and picked him up to bring him in (which I guess he may have seen it like i was taking him away from food...but he had ben given dinner and didn't finish it at all) and as i was carrying him in, he turned his mouth up toward my face and got my lower lip and chin with his teeth. It hurt. I said OUCH!! and turned him away from me, and he did that little growling back thing .not the mean tantrum snarling thing he did when i picked him up by his scruff the other day, but a grwling "hey, don't tell me what to do!, I'm gonna do what I want" attitude type of growl, as I am still carrying him in. So I put him right in his gated area. He tried to push out but i barred it with something heavy. Then we turnd and went into the bedroom to put my daughter to bed. As we were leaving he managed to push his way out of the caged area. I figured it had been over 30 seconds since I had said OUCH so I didn't bother putting him back. He whined to get on the bed with us when I was reading to my daughter, but I didn't let him and eventually he just went back to the kitchen to lie down.

Now, I find this odd. My daughter is now asleep, and I picked up a box of his toys and me and Tiga went back into the office where I work on the computer. We played a bit and I encouraged him to get up on the loveseat, and he did chew his toys a bit, but after a few moments he disappeared, and I went later and looked and he is back in the kitchen lying down again! Now the kitchen has tile, and it is warm here. The office is in the warmer part of the house but i have a fan on. It can't be THAT warm. I am hoping he is not somehow desiring to be separate from me for some reason, like I'm not part of the "pack" I am assuming maybe he is starting to feel like the kitchen is his "den" instead. If he wanted to be near me but lay on the tile he could have layed just outside the office door. When I went in and got down and talked to him he was playful and happy to see me, but I tried to get him to come back down here with me, and he stopped at the kitchen entrance and when I started to turn the corner he just stood there waggin his tail and then turned and went back into the kitchen! Do you find this odd?

 

[bubbatd]

Not at all . He likes it there !

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

let me also ask you this. he is showing very little interest in the kibbles we got him. we got him that no corn/wheat food by dick van patten. we also put wet food on it and he really does not devour it! I ptu in hot water and ieven some chicken buillion, and he licks up the liquid and leaves most of the food. sometimes he eats most of the dog cookies but leaves large chunks. he loves the liver treats tho. with puppies using so much energy, i am a little worried why he is not eating so much. he is not lethargic. i mean if he is puppy-hungry, wouldn't he just eat what we gave him? esp if it had wet food in it?

steph

 

[bubbatd]

He's still a little young for large chunks . In fact I ground the pups chow , then slowly made more chunky . I always moistened the food and added cottage cheese and hard boiled eggs ...... If he's hungry , he'll eat !

 

[Maxy24]

Is the food you are feeding called natural Balance? Some formulas were recalled, i would not feed any of the formulas now but that is up to you. Read this
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51389&highlight=Natural+Balance

My friend taped for me the episode of Oprah which had the dog trainer on it, recently. do you know this trainer? I gues he has his own show on one of hte channels too!

Do you remember his name? If it was Ceasar Millan, then most of us, including myself don't like him. he's too rough and blames too many dogs behaviors on dominance.

Since he usually bites when you play it should be easy to fix by stopping play when he bites and leaving, as you have already done. If you and everyone in the house make sure they do this every single time then he should catch on soon. If you have to end a game when he does not want to then say something like "all done" take the toy away from him and give him a treat so he does not think the game is ending because he did something wrong and also so you can teach the command "all done". With the "all done" command you have the ability to end the game when you are done (you decide when games start and finish, not the puppy!). Just make sure you give the treat or he will not like the ending of the game and may associate the command with bad things and try to grip the toy harder or run away from you when you use the command.

Good Luck!

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

no it turns out hte one on oprah was a woman.

 

[Beanie]

Was it Tamar Geller? She has a book out called "The Loved Dog." I didn't see her on the show nor have I read the book, but I did see an excerpt from it. In the chapter I read, she seemed very intent on positive training, often without even touching the dog, and was somewhat harsh about "torturers disguised as trainers" doing alpha rolls. *chuckles a little*
I think her book is probably on sale at several bookstores right now since it just came out recently, so it may be worth picking up if you're interested by what she says on Oprah.

 

[bubbatd]

Really , your pup is too young at this point to concentrate on anything other than toilet training and puppy manners .

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

ok i have id'd the behaviors that are hard to deal with. when he gets excited esp in the morning when we first go see him, ALL he does if left to himself is chase after my daughter and grab her clothes and pull on them. She kind of tries to keep him at arms length and says STOP! NO, STOP! but his little mouth is just GOIN'

Is the solution for this to let him out, play intently with him one on one for a few minutes, make sure he goes potty, and gets fed, and THEN cage him up again while she and I do our morning thing? He will just whine and cry then, because we have put him back in the cage he just spent hours in at night. When she doesn't have school we have more time and can take him out and chase around. but the biting and grabbing at the clothes and nearly ripping them has to stop. i do distract him with a toy but after a few second playing with it he is back to the pants and socks.

steph

 

[Doberluv]

When you or your daughter react to his biting and grabbing clothes, you are reinforcing that behavior. He may well think you're joining in with the fun. It's all very rewarding. You need to prevent him from getting a payoff for this behavior. Part of the payoff is your speaking. Don't speak at all. Don't touch him at all. Don't look at him at all. Yelping works with some dogs. But it doesn't work with all dogs. Your puppy sounds plenty rambunctious and the yelping may come off as you joining in and playing with him. I would not make a sound or any reaction at all with this dog while he is biting other than to re-direct him to a good teething type chew toy.

Put him on a leash when your daughter is present and tie it to your belt loop. Reward him every single time that he has a second or two of behavior you like. Try to catch the moments that he is calm and reinforce those. Reinforce him very, very frequently so that he stops guessing at what behavior brings him the good treats and praise. The more times he is reinforced, the quicker he'll make the connection.

Stop leaving him running loose when you can't supervise him. Yes, I mean to tell you that with my Doberman puppy, he was either supervised, actively worked or played with or he was in his crate. He and I spent oodles of time outside walking and playing. I got very little done in the way of house work. That's the way it is with most big puppies.

Get him more romping exercise outside.....frequently taking him out to chase a ball or toy. He needs an outlet which is constructive. Try to give him something to do which is as fun as chasing your daughter....a toy on a string that you pull around the yard. This is all practice for when a dog is hunting something (in nature) Chasing is part of their prey drive. It should be discouraged with humans. And how it is discouraged is by not getting a payoff for it.....not succeeding in doing it. And by having an alternative way to exercise that prey drive....chasing a ball, frisbee, toy and later other activities.

When he is biting, stay calm. Getting all riled up only intensifies his wild play.

Biting is absolutely normal for an infant pup. Your puppy is not stubborn. That is a human thing. Your puppy has not had a chance to learn behavior which humans find acceptable. He is doing what he does best and that is to be a dog.

More exercise appropriate to his age and breed.

Constructive outlets for behavior such as chasing and biting.

Ending playtime consistantly when biting pressure even hints at hurting.

Stop attacking your dog. Do NOT hold his muzzle closed, scruff him, scold him harsly. You will cause many more behavior problems than you could possibly solve.

Reinforce/reward WELL for any behavior you want to see repeated.

Prevent unwanted behavior in the first place whenever possible.

Distract and Re-direct to an appropriate chew toy or other activity when puppy is engaged in something you don't like.

Use a leash if necessary to prevent him from running after your daughter. Make doing an alternative behavior much more fun for him than chasing and biting your daughter.

Forget about using all kinds of English words that he doesn't understand now.

"Leave it" is a very useful skill. HOWEVER, just saying the words isn't going to mean a thing to him. He doesn't understand English. You'll have to do a search on how to teach leave it.

Do not give commands that the dog does not understand. Those words are meaningless and he will begin to associate them with whatever behavior he is doing at that moment. For instance, if he is biting your daughter's clothes and you say, "leave it" (before he has leaned that skill) he will think that "leave it" means bite daughter's clothes and skin. You are attaching a word with that behavior.

There are specific ways to teach leave it and other useful tricks, but just saying the words before the dog has learned them is useless.

Again, attacking your dog with scruffing, anger, scolding harshly will ruin your puppy and cause aggression because you're putting him on the defensive. Aggression or extreme cowardice. He will shut down, be afraid to offer new behaviors and learning will be impossible.

I recommend also Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. The Power Of Positive Training, by Pat Miller is also very good. Maxi and the others gave you great advice.

Remember, your dog is not stubborn. That is not how dogs think. He is a baby, he is a dog doing what dogs do. He needs to learn our ways with patient, sound training methods. Let your puppy be a puppy while he learns little by little how to get along in a human's world. After all, he is a completely different species and he doesn't come knowing how we like him to act. That takes lots of growing up and proper handling.

 

[casablanca1]

There seems to be a lot of evidence that puppies should not be taken from the litter before 8 weeks because the last 1-2 weeks of that time with the litter and mother are crucial, are when the pups learn a lot about bite inhibition. So your puppy may in fact be more bitey and agressive with his mouth than the average puppy, due to not having that week of experimenting with bite pressure on his siblings.

Also he will go into a part of the yard he is not suposed to (ther is cat poop there) and I will remove him from it and say "NO!!!" and plop him down elsewhere and facing the other direction, and he makes an immediate u turn and goes right back in there.

I agree with everyone who said to just fence it off for now. Any argument you can think your way out of having with a dog, do it. If he can't get to that part of the yard, he'll get either 1) get into the habit of not going there or 2) become obsessed with getting in there and eventually, when he's larger, you'll have to come up with a new plan. But at least you'll gain some time.

Is the solution for this to let him out, play intently with him one on one for a few minutes, make sure he goes potty, and gets fed, and THEN cage him up again while she and I do our morning thing?...When she doesn't have school we have more time and can take him out and chase around. but the biting and grabbing at the clothes and nearly ripping them has to stop.

I think you have a good idea there. Just don't confine it to the house or to a few minutes. Take him outside and let him explore until he's worn down the edge of excitement of being out of the nighttime confinement. I'm not sure I'd let people play chase with the puppy right now - he doesn't need any more encouragement to chase and grab. Basically, you don't want him to establish this chase/grab/bite behavior as a habit because then that'll be a nightmare to break when he's older and it's less appropriate. It's interesting that he has it, because it's more common in herding breeds than retrievers. My collie mix will tear past me, mouth wide open, 'catching' my clothes or hand in passing - a flyby toothing. If she gets too bad about it, I knock into them with a similarly 'careless' knee as they make another go'round. Oops. I believe in physical punishment, but it has to be just, it has to be instant and it has to be unemotional (and, usually, you don't need to speak) And the second the animal responds, praise. If I had a pup who bit, I'd say No the first time. When he ignores it, walk away abruptly. When he tries it again, the bite would be unpleasant. I don't advocate hitting the dog, but it would probably be uncomfortable for him if you were to, instead of pulling your hand out of his mouth, shove it a bit further down till he backs off. No reprimand, no comment, just an unencouraging result to his behavior, one that won't hurt him and won't start WWIII. You don't want to fight with the dog, you just want to communicate and establish a mutually agreeable setup.

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

thanks this is good. i have ben doing eh eh eh eh really loud and most of the time he stops and looks at me....but sometimse that doesn't even faze him.

i will do the leash thing. i will also wear a pouch of treats on me at all times. we haven't been holding his mouth closed for awhile now. and if we get him outside right away to play really hard he wil lvoluntarily go and lie down when we come back in so that is necessary. just have to get up 10 minutes earlier!!

steph

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

the lady on oprah was named Tamar i think, the book is "the loved dog"

 

[Maxy24]

i have ben doing eh eh eh eh really loud and most of the time he stops and looks at me....but sometimse that doesn't even faze him.

I can't write long since I have to go to school I just wanted to say that one the times he stops and loks at you make sure you give him a treat!

The pouch of treats is a wonderful idea. Getting up 10 minutes early for a while will be a small price to play, Good Luck!