7.5 week old puppy, stubborn, it seems?

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

I just got a 7 week old GR puppy. He's great and fun, and we are doing well at night, he's not crated but confined in an area. No whining the past couple nights. In all respects he seems a normal puppy, but....

He seems stubborn with regards to stopping biting when we say "no biting!" during play. I haven't had a pup in a long time but I dont remember them being stubborn like this! He will bit or grab my daughter's clothes and we remove his mouth from the arm/clothes and hold hte mouth closed and say sharply NO BITING! sometimes i hold it closed (or I WAS pushing the little cheek into the canine tooth a bit, which method is beter?) until I hear a little whimper. Then I try to say GOOD BOY GOOD BOY!!!! and pet him right after that .But sometims he just goes right back for the biting. Saying No biting again doesn't make him let go. It's like he doens't know what the meaning of it is, although I don't see how he can't we say it so much every day! Also he will go into a part of the yard he is not suposed to (ther is cat poop there) and I will remove him from it and say "NO!!!" and plop him down elsewhere and facing the other direction, and he makes an immediate u turn and goes right back in there. Today when he did that and i removed him again, I pulled him up by the scruff of hte neck like the mom would, and said NO!!! Well, he did that "attack frenzy" growling....not just growling (which he has done before when i hold his mouth closed for the no biting) but that snarling attack fight sound. if my hand would have been in rach I am sure he woudl have bitten it.

Is he just naturally more dominant or aggessive? Is he going to turn out to be an aggressive dog? I was hoping for a laid back easygoing GR...or is there no way to predict his future personality based on this? I will be getting him neutered later.

So is this normal stubornness or do i just have an exceptional one?? AND PS I got him from a normal suburbian guy with one dog, full papers, registered, xrayed, very nice, not a puppy mill or anything like that.

Thanks guys

steph

 

[MysticRealm]

When your puppy bites you yelp. and turn away, don't play or touch the puppy for atleast 5 minutes. He will learn that if he bites then play ends, and that's no fun.
About him going into the wrong part of the yard, it's got cat poo in it, that is going to be a strong smell and he wants to check it out. Put up a barrier to stop him from going there.

 

[Maxy24]

Hi and welcome to Chazhound I am VERY glad you asked for help.

First of PLEASE stop inflicting pain on your dog when he does stuff you don't like. It could make him aggressive plus there are better ways to train without hurting him.

Let's start with the biting. He is a puppy so it is to be expected. When he does this DO NOT grab him just stop playing and stand up, completely ignore him. Don't yell, if you want you can say ouch! in a yelp but no screaming at him. After a minute of ignoring go back to playing. The second he bites stand back up and ignore, or leave the room even. once again after a minute come back and play. Keep up the ignoring every time he bites.

He does not know the meaning of no biting, probably because you say it so much, which is bound to happen with a puppy who constantly bites. So no words are better than over using a command.

For the cat poop you should probably just fence off or in some other way prevent him from having access to that place. Is he eating the poop or do you just not want him there as a precaution?

Many training methods include grabbing a dog by the scruff, this is a BIG no no. Actually picking a dog up by the scruff could be dangerous. Grabbing it just makes an angry dog and teaches nothing but that your hands hurt him. His mom as you said may have held his scruff but she was a dog, you are not and don't need to be acting like one for training. As you saw scruff grabbing can lead to dog aggression.

He is a normal puppy no worries there. You seem like you do a lot of physical punishment, please stop that it can make an aggressive and fearful dog. I also did not see you mention that you use treats. From now on when he does something you want (go potty outside, chew HIS toys or listen to a command) give him a small but yummy dog treat. sating good dog is great but nothing speaks to a dog like food, there's no better training tool.

Please if you have questions ask right away, you may need some help with new training methods so you know longer have to hurt your dog while he is learning to behave. training should be a bonding experience not an unenjoyable fight for dominance, since you are not fighting your puppy for anything anyway.

i hope this helped, answer my question too about the poop, whether he eats it or not (if he eats it then he should also learn the command "leave it" although I still think it would be better to just fence off the spot). I'm glad you joined and look forward to learning more about your pup as he grows and want to help in any way I can.

I'd also like to recommend the book "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. I love this book and really gets you into the dogs mind.

 

[squirtsmom]

It is only tiny yet, may be too young to get the hang of it.

 

[angelzeus]

you need to try something different because if he is snarling when you hold his mouth shut he is going to hurt someone the older he gets you deffently need to put a stop to this behavior i would try to take him by his collar and pull him away and tell him no and then give him a toy or a bone to chew on if he accepts it tell him what a good boy he is if this does not help i would seek professional help asap before this dog becomes really dangerous

 

[Maxy24]

With an older dog i would agree with angelzeus to get professional help, but since he is so young i don't think he is capable of showing real aggression yet. You probably just hurt or scared him so he reacted in response to those. Try positive training. If he gets aggressive for no real reason or for reasons that can not be avoided (such as petting him) then get professional help.

 

[Spiritus]

What Maxy said

GR's are mouthy dogs. They are a breed that is bred to use their mouth. Often in the show ring, we see Golden's carrying out their ribbons, just because they LOVE to carry things. It's bred into them. He's in the mouthy puppy stage, and it likely won't be over for another 9 or 10 weeks. You must be consistent - all play/attention ceases when he puts his teeth on you. NO physical correction, just a withdrawal of the attention.

And, I don't think there is such a thing as a laid back Golden Retriever.... at least not until they hit 4 or 5 years of age.

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

Thanks so much everyone! I remembered the tooth in mouth thing fro ages ago but i will do whatever works! i don't want to hurt him...the holding his mouth shut thing didn't seem like it would be painful, just .... inconvienient. but he doesn't like it at all. If part of training is to say NO, then what difference is NO BITING? Won't he associate NO BITING with stopping that activity? I have been using treats but i really need to get a pouch to wear ALLLL the time. Sometimse I am in a different room and no access to treats.

My problem with just standing up and ignoring him is that i have a 4 yr old who is closer to his level. When he is grabbing at the hem of her shirt and her pants, you can't just stand up and walk away. he will chase and bite and play. So you are saying just don't even say NO? I thought to say NO BITING and then the minute his mouth is off the arm or the clothes, to give a treat and praise. How does he come to associate NO with things he should not do? eventually you want him to get to the point where he approaches something or starts something and you say NO and he just stops.

Yea i won't grab his scruff again that was a real bad idea.

My neighbor's GR is like 6 and for a few years i have known them and she is the most laid back thing ever. She just sits outside the front of the house and watches the world go by!

 

[bubbatd]

Mine were all layed back and grand-pup Seger is at 6 months . Goldens like all pups love to be mouthy . Goldens are VERY sensitive dogs and need as pups to be handled gently . No rough housing or play fighting . My grandson was 5 when they got Seger and there were a few ripped shirts and pants in the beginning . They love stuffed toys , so when grabbing a sleeve etc ... substitute a toy . NO TUG OF WAR at this point !

 

[Brattina88]

He's just a baby.

The problem with just yelling NO is that it doesn't tell him what he needs to do. When training dogs (and kids for that matter LOL) you need to tell them what to do instead of what not to do. For example, if a dog is sitting they can't possibly be jumping up at the same time. So instead of yelling "Off!" or down a simple "Sit" should suffice.
I teach leave it to puppies as early as possible; I think its a very useful command. If I saw my puppy nipping at my child first off I'd make sure my child or anyone else in the house isn't encouraging it at other times, to be consistent. Then, when you catch the puppy in the act interrupt with an "eh-eh" or, if your puppy knows it, "Leave it" and then give them something else to do. Sit, lie down, or give a kong, bone, or toy thats more appropriate to chew on

There's a BIG difference between a 4-6 year old dog and a GR puppy. They have puppy energy and puppy behavior. GR are usually good natured, but that have to learn how to act when they are young

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

oh i know that.....i was just wondering if stubbornness NOW was a good predictor of personality LATER.

So you guys are suggesting NOT to use NO? I mean really what diff does it make which words you use...I could say HOUSEPLANT when he is biting if i wanted to and if i'm consistent he woudl learn that HOUSEPLANT means he needs to stop biting. I do tell my duaghter to give him a toy when he is biting, take his mouth off your arm and give him a toy. I do this too. if no toy is immediately in reach i just praise him after he stops. I feel like i need to wear like a toolbelt of toys, papertowels, and treats!!!

Isn't consisitent use of NO just teaching him to not touch or go for something? whatever he is doing at that moment, stop it?

steph

 

[Spiritus]

I use a quick, sharp ah-AH to interrupt puppy biting, then redirect to something more appropriate (a toy, chewie). In the case of your daughter, when your puppy gets too playful, you will need to confine the puppy.

Your puppy is an infant, equivelent to about 7-9 months of age.... the busy BUSY stage where everything must be tasted and pulled on and checked out. Keep this in mind when interacting with him.

 

[Brattina88]

Your puppy is not being stubborn. He just doesn't understand what your talking about yet.

 

[Spiritus]

We posted at the same time

This is where the human culture and the dog culture clashes. To you, biting is not appropriate. To a dog, biting at this age is the only thing they know how to do to play and investigate their world. It is very appropriate to the dog.

I use don't use no. I have never used no. One reason why I don't use no is because, yes, to me, it means to stop whatever you are doing, but it does not to the dog. Dogs don't generalize commands in that sense. And example of that generalization is the command sit. If you think you've taught a dog to sit, turn your back to the dog, and say sit. Chances are the dog will not sit because it has not learned to generalize the word sit to every situation. If you teach a dog to sit with the dog standing in front of you, the dog learns that when mom is standing in front of me with a treat in hand and says sit, my bum sits on the floor. But when you change the set up, for example, you're sitting in the reclyner in the livingroom and give the command to sit, all the other cues that the dog has learned to associate with sit are not there and they apparently don't have a clue what you are saying. When teaching not to bite something, I use ah-ah to interrupt the behavior then redirect. The dog wanting to check things out with his mouth is not wrong. It is not bad. It is normal. To leave something alone, I use leave it. To stop running in the opposite direction, I use come, to get off of me if jumping on me, I use off. Different commands for every different thing.

If you have nothing to redirect the dog to bite on, when you do praise him, do it quietly and gently. Don't do an excited happy GOOD DOG as this will just build his drive up and make him want to bite more.

One thing you could try to keep him under a bit more control is to tether him to you. Attach a leash to your waist and take him everywhere in the house with you. This way you always know where the puppy is, and the puppy always knows where you are.

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

so if his mouth is around my foot or my daughter's arm, we should use "leave it?" when he is at his most playful his mouth has to be REMOVED from things. It seems wierd not to put a command along with this. then sometimes he still runs around grabbing at us with his mouth.

steph

 

[Spiritus]

And he will still grab at you, and a month from now he will STILL grab you - because it is NORMAL for him to do so.

When your daughter was young, at the stage where she was crawling and putting everything she could find into her mouth, what did you do? Likely, you just took away whatever she had. You likely did not reprimand her, you just removed the object of her attention because she did not understand that she shouldn't do that. It was NORMAL for her to do that. This is where you are with your puppy. He is not going to be able to even grasp the concept that his teeth should not go on things for at least 8 more weeks. How can you teach him something that he is very simply not capable of understanding? Just like you can't teach the average kindergarten child algebra, you cannot teach a 7 week old puppy not to bite. You can interrupt him and redirect him, but he will not be able to understand that biting is not acceptable until he is approximately 16 weeks old.

Now, this is just coming from my experience. I have raised a total of 10 puppies in the last six years. This does not include the three litters I have raised. If we want to include these, then the number will jump to 27 puppies in six years.

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

then it soudns like for now if he is doing things he shouln't I shouldn't even bother saying No no! or Don't Touch or anything, but sould just remove him or me or the object fro the situation? This is tough. Unless he is tethered ANYWHERE I have him or I have a crate in each room. I mean if he is going to be out in the back yard with us, I should have him tethered and not running free? Cuz other wise I am saying Tiga, no no! don't touch! to everything.

I mean we can't just get up and leave the room every tim he bites. I'm making dinner or my daughter is watching tv or whatever. Should we just place him in his cage every time! It sounds like when he is out and active we won't get a moment's peace if I have to remove him from he situation every time he bites. We hav to be able to put a command to it so he gets used to the word. Even a baby can learn what it means to hear no no no!....doesn't a baby stop and look at you or somethng when you say no no no?

Steph

 

[MysticRealm]

IF you can't take the time to be consistent with the puppy (maybe you shouldn't havegotten a puppy) then yes crate it. Having a short rope on while the dog is around the house is good. then if the puppy starts nipping at your kid say ouch or yelp, then pick up your kid and step down on the leash so the dog can't jump up to keep biting your kid then just stand still till the dog calms down and thinks 'well that's no fun' after a bit try a bit of play if the dog bites again yelp pick up kid step down on leash and wait. (Never leave the leash on when you can't supervise the dog)

 

[Tiga_Golden_Retriever]

well you can't tell me that you guys, when you have your puppies out in the house, are 100% focused on what he is doing and aren't walking around doing chores or working or cleaning or typing on the computer or SOMETHING. I mean it's like does he hav to be constrained EXCEPT when you are directly playing with him? I have time for hte puppy, i work at home, but sometimes i am cooking or getting my daughter ready or whatnot. It's not focus on the puppy only time whenever I'm in the house with him.

I'm just looking for the best way, and to unerstand WHEN i can EXPECT that when I say a command, he does it. When shoudl i be able to say Dont Touch and he will drop something? When should i b e able to say no biting and he'll start licking my hand instead of gnawing on it? someone said 16 weeks?

I'm ok with that, just need to know how to do commands and how to deal with the behavior in the meantime. Getting up and ignoring him doesn't seem like a feasible solution. To ignore him i'd have to run away fro him! Puting him in his area seems easier.

 

[Maxy24]

You seem like your getting frustrated, I understand but try not to. Each dog is different, some take longer to learn some take shorter. When you are getting your daughter ready or cooking he can be crated or put in his area. Those activities are relatively short. Make sure he has toys where ever it is you put him. Do you have a Kong? They are great toys! You fill them with wet dog food or plain yogurt and then freeze them, it will keep the pup busy and can help with teething.

To watch the dog you can tie him to you, I know it seems like much but it works.

Ok, you want a command so I will help you with that. Don't use NO. People end up using no for biting, jumping, digging, eating the wrong things, chewing the wrong things etc. because in our language it means stop your current activity you've done something wrong. A dog's mind just does not work like that. Every wrong behavior needs a different command.

If you want to use no bite that's fine but you will still have to TEACH it. Just saying it a bunch of times won't get it into his head. Tell me more about when he bites, that's the only way i can help. Are you playing with him or completely ignoring him when he decides to bite? Once you tell me that I will help you. Explain a situation when he bites and i will tell you what to do, please be as specific as possible.

I also wanted to mention I like no reward markers (which are talked about in the book i recommended). NRM (no reward markers) mean that the dog has just lost his chance at getting a treat and can be used in any situation. It is the opposite of a click in clicker training, a click means you did something right a treat is on the way. A NRM means you did something wrong you lost the chance to get a treat.

the NRM can be a word or sound. Many use "eh-eh" since it can be delivered with a sharp tone of voice therefor catching the dogs attention better. For softer dogs or if using a word is easier you can say "wrong", "oh well", or "too bad". Always use the same one, choose it and stick with it.

Teaching it is a bit more difficult, if your pup was older it would be easier since i don't know how well he can grasp the idea of the stay command but it's worth a try, just don't get angry if he is VERY slow. So we will be teaching "stay" and the NRM at the same time. I'm just going to use the NRM "wrong".

Does he know the sit command? If not just have him sit somehow, I'm sure you can get him to. kneel on the floor with him and Place the treat on the floor a foot or so in front of him. When he goes to grab the treat, you snatch it up quickly and say "wrong" (you don't have to say it in a loud, yelling scolding voice, just a steady normal voice is fine). Get him to sit again and place the treat on the ground in the same spot and when he goes to get it once again pull it away and say "wrong". At some point he will stop trying to go get it when you place it on the floor. he may start barking at it. If he does then pull it away as soon as he starts barking and say "wrong", repeat until he stops barking. Eventually the moment will come when you put the treat on the floor and he just sits there. YAY! he is staying! put the treat into his mouth and praise, he has gone through his mind and found out what he has to do to get the treat (Lunging does not work so we'll throw out that idea, hmm how about barking... no treat, now I'll try not moving, hey look i did that and got a treat I'll try that again). Do it a few more times. he might mess up again just pull away the treat saying "wrong" whenever he does. After you get him to stay when you put the treat down four times IN A ROW (make sure he gets the treat every time) you will need to make him mess up again so you can continue to teach the NRM.

To get him to mess up you must change your position. if you were sitting beside him go to the other side or sit in front if him. If you were in front then go to a side of him. Place the treat in front of him and chances are he will go for it again. Snatch it away and say "wrong". Repeat what you did before and after four perfect stays in a row change you position again and repeat. After you try all positions around him that you can think of and have gotten him to stay four times IN A ROW in each position you could start to introduce the "stay" command (up 'till now you have not used any command to try to make him stay you have just put him in a sit and put the treat on the floor with no words) but I'm not too interested in teaching stay right now I'm teaching NRM so if you want stay (or any other command lesson) either start another thread on it or PM me, I'll be glad to help.

The NRM can be taught with other commands. "sit" can be taught by holding the treat over his head and if he jumps you snatch away the treat saying "wrong". I prefer teaching the NRM with Stay because there are more chances that your dog will mess up so you can use the NRM more therefore there is a greater chance he will learn it.

Teach a few commands using the NRM every time he messes up (make sure the treat gets pulled away and you put it behind your back or out of site every time he messes up) and then see if he knows it.

To prove it go into a room with a chew toy (his favorite) and the puppy and sit one the floor with him. Put the toy on the floor next to you. Start petting the puppy or sort of rough housing with him, something that usually gets him to bite. As soon as his teeth dig into you say "wrong". he should stop. if he does give him a treat (which was in your pocket so you'll need those too) and then try to get him to play with his toy so he knows that is what he is actually supposed to chew. Let him play with it for a minute or two then try to get him to play with your hands again. Once he bites you repeat, give treat and get him to play with his toy.

Now if you do the above but when you go to pet or rough with him and you say the NRM but he does not stop, it means he does not understand it yet. you can try to teach it with your arm instead. He bites your arm or hand you should pull it away saying "wrong" and maybe cross your arms on your chest so he can't get them. Then reach over and shake the toy. If he goes for the toy give him a treat and have him play with the toy for a minute and entice him back to petting or roughing. repeat. After a few times test the NRM again. He bites you say "wrong" he should stop. if he stops give a treat and start him playing with his toy. Once he stops every time you use the NRM that means he understands what it means. Once he knows it you can use it for any behavior you don't like and that there is an alternative to (meaning the alternative to a dog that digs in the garden is getting him to dig in his own sand box, for a puppy that bites the alternative is a chew toy. There must be something else the dog can do in replace of the bad behavior).

The difference between a command and a NRM is that a command is SPECIFIC to ONE behavior while the no reward marker can be used over a wide variety of behaviors. Also a NRM does not tell your dog what to do it simply tells him that he made the wrong choice.

If you don't want to use the NRM but would much rather use a command then answer what i wrote before, I'll put it back down here since I wrote it a while ago,

Are you playing with him or completely ignoring him when he decides to bite? Once you tell me that I will help you further. Explain a situation when he bites and i will tell you what to do, please be as specific as possible.

I am VERY sorry this is so long NRM are difficult for me to explain well so it takes a lot of space. I hope this helped and could answer some questions. I really urge you to get the book i recommended. Good Luck, and remember your pup is young so don't make any training sessions too long. Start with 5 mins and see how he does. If he does very well you can up the time a bit but don't bring him to his limit, training needs to be fun not frustrating for him and you too. At the beginning of each session you may need to refresh him on what he learned last session. ok I'm done now