Prey drive = toy drive ??

I think if they like to chase things they have prey drive. That's it. I doubt mother nature instilled ball drive in my dogs. I think people like to try and break things down too much just so they have something to talk about

Sure some dogs like to chase squirrels but not balls, but some dogs like to chase rabbits and not birds, do they have rabbit drive, but not bird drive? or is it that birds just don't reach their threshold to illicit a prey chasing response?

I don't think they are any different, it just takes different stimulus and different thresholds for different dogs and those can change over time too for the same dog. Doesn't mean they have more or less drive, just different thresholds to illicit a response.

Prey sequence, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect and eat. like anything dog, it's not hard fast rules but generally accepted. A pointer points because his brain gets shut off in the stalk part of the prey sequence. It doesn't meat I can't toss in a chicken and watch them dissect it.

And because my GSD catches a rabbit and does the stalk, chase, grab, and kill but never disects, doesn't mean it won't eat it when I skin it or tear the skin open a bit, and my other will do it all.

If it chases things it has prey drive. your ball might not stimulate it or the running squirrel might not get a passing glance. Maybe nature gave them different threshholds, maybe they just learned that squirrels aren't their prey item because they were never allowed to chase them? That happens too, and some dogs if they don't learn it in a certain window of time when they're young, they never learn that certain things can be chased or are natural prey items.

A cat might make a perfectly good meal to a dog, and if they're raised with them the might never see a cat as a meal, ever. Doesn't mean cats aren't, or that the dog doesn't have prey drive.

I think it is just thresholds and stimulus. I don't think there are toy drives and prey drive. What about the dog that will chase turkeys and deer, but not squirrels and rabbits? prey drive? or just deer drive? or likes to chase cars, do they have car drive? or will play with a rope and ball, but not a bite pillow? do they have rope and ball drive?

I think these terms just stand to create more confusion rather than clarify anything.

I think if they like to chase things they have prey drive. That's it. I doubt mother nature instilled ball drive in my dogs. I think people like to try and break things down too much just so they have something to talk about

Sure some dogs like to chase squirrels but not balls, but some dogs like to chase rabbits and not birds, do they have rabbit drive, but not bird drive? or is it that birds just don't reach their threshold to illicit a prey chasing response?

I don't think they are any different, it just takes different stimulus and different thresholds for different dogs and those can change over time too for the same dog. Doesn't mean they have more or less drive, just different thresholds to illicit a response.

Prey sequence, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect and eat. like anything dog, it's not hard fast rules but generally accepted. A pointer points because his brain gets shut off in the stalk part of the prey sequence. It doesn't meat I can't toss in a chicken and watch them dissect it.

And because my GSD catches a rabbit and does the stalk, chase, grab, and kill but never disects, doesn't mean it won't eat it when I skin it or tear the skin open a bit, and my other will do it all.

If it chases things it has prey drive. your ball might not stimulate it or the running squirrel might not get a passing glance. Maybe nature gave them different threshholds, maybe they just learned that squirrels aren't their prey item because they were never allowed to chase them? That happens too, and some dogs if they don't learn it in a certain window of time when they're young, they never learn that certain things can be chased or are natural prey items.

A cat might make a perfectly good meal to a dog, and if they're raised with them the might never see a cat as a meal, ever. Doesn't mean cats aren't, or that the dog doesn't have prey drive.

I think it is just thresholds and stimulus. I don't think there are toy drives and prey drive. What about the dog that will chase turkeys and deer, but not squirrels and rabbits? prey drive? or just deer drive? or likes to chase cars, do they have car drive? or will play with a rope and ball, but not a bite pillow? do they have rope and ball drive?

I think these terms just stand to create more confusion rather than clarify anything.

What about the terrier that has tons of play and chase drive but wont hunt? A dog that would chase a ball all day or tug until it hurts your arms but is absolutely useless in the working field. Not a shred of prey drive, it would rather nap or chase butterflies, not a spark yet given countless opportunities and schoolings to do the job it was bred to do? I am also not taking about a pet or show bred dog but a dog with a loaded pedigree of excellent working (hunting dogs). Is it still about degrees?

I think so. I guess I'd have to meet such a dog. I have a hard time thinking that a dog with that much desire to chase a ball, would let itself starve to death in the absence of food. Maybe they exist, i've never come across one.

Maybe it's imprinting, maybe this dog lived with rats as a puppy and will never see them as prey, I don't know. Maybe the smell of quarry was never signaled to it, that it was food, but if you stuffed a bag of kibble into a rat they'd devour it.

Who knows? I still don't think they are unrelated drives, I think it's all about stimulus and threshold.

so their first instinct was to kill it Typically yes, but now they'll only chase balls till your arm goes dead, no my dogs tend to not like balls, but won't chase prey? Of course they chase or go after prey or I don't have them, and your terriers has coon drive, Absolutely, but not cat drive? depends on the dog

I guess I'm not sure where you're going with this?

so, You think nature gave dogs another set of drives to eye, stalk, chase, grab etc other than prey drive and we call it toy drive?

So you stopped young puppies from killing things when that was their first instinct, and now they don't like balls, what happened to the dogs that wouldn't touch a prey animal but would chase a ball till your arm fell off?

Rats are just an example, it could be any animal, it doesn't matter. if you don't like rat because it is just a game for terriers and something they do in their leisure for "a fun game" then replace rat with any quarry you deem worthy, it doesn't matter. The concept is the same.

Or are rats part of the "toy drive" for terriers, but other more formidable quarry are part of prey drive

so, some terriers have coon drive, but not cat drive? surely a cat can be as much fun to kill and be just as tasty to a terrier? or do they taste too much like a swampy fish and not enough like chicken? I don't know, have never tasted it.

I think they just have prey drive, some never learned that a cat is prey, some did (stimulus) I bet some would go after a moving cat, but not a dead still cat. Did that dog lose it's prey drive? or did it just not cross a threshold?

i've seen plenty of dogs go dead silent and glaze over for all sorts of things. Do GSD's see man as prey? or are we toys? or do we use the eye, stalk, chase, bite, etc of prey drive to train certain exercises?

when doing things to elicit prey drive like moving with tugs, balls, sleeves, suits, flirt poles, etc it's almost exclusively frustration from restraint that elicits barking, the more prey movements, the less likely you'll hear any barking, until we teach them that barking activates things. Then they bark like crazy. But that isn't their natural response.

I have a dog that glazes over daily every time she see's a particular cat in our house. maybe it's her "long hair cat drive"

I think it's more a case of all those behaviors are prey drive, the rest depends on stimuli and thresholds.

that's peculiar, I don't feel touchy or pissy.

I'm sorry I don't think you make a very good point for prey and "toy" drives being different other than in the stimulus and the threshold that must be met to elicit them.

because a dog can't actually catch what he's trying to eat, doesn't mean he doesn't have prey drive. it means he's slow, too loud, can't get close enough I really don't believe that a dog that will chase a ball all day long till your arm falls off, will sit idly by as "food" walks past him while he dreams of butterflies, as you put it, if there is no option of food waiting for him in a bowl when he gets home.

I certainly believe there are dogs that won't chase anything, they also wouldn't live if a human wasn't feeding them.

I"m not saying every dog has the same amount of drive either just because they're dogs. I'm sure there are terriers that won't hunt. I question whether they chase balls till arms fall off, but if it did, I'd bet it would have more to do with what they learned is or isn't prey and the fact that they are always fed wether they hunt or not.


If my questions to you sounded silly, it wasn't an accident. There was a point to all of that, sorry you didn't catch it.

In his books DOGS, Ray Coppinger does a wonderful job of explaining the predatory behavior chain - I often recommend his book solely for that chapter.

In our dogs, the behaviors we see are the same ones that would be seen in a wolf's predatory sequence . These behaviors are instinctive, a natural part of the canine behavioral repertoire. Perhaps most importantly, when expressed by our domestic dogs, these behaviors can show considerable deviation from the natural behavior.

Specialized breeds reflect the results of selective breeding for specific behaviors or exaggerations of some behaviors or inhibition of other behaviors.Thus herding dogs exhibit strong chase behaviors but with inhibited bite/grip and highly inhibited killing behaviors, The Border Collie's famous "eye" is a result of generations of breeding for an exaggeration of a natural behavior. Bird dogs have the bite/grip intensely inhibited, thus the desired "soft mouth." In the case of pointing breeds, the naturally occurring stalk behavior is exaggerated to become a frozen "point".

IDK, but it sure is fascinating to observe in the dogs, how it manifests, what turns the dog on, how to build that drive, all of it...

Um, well. Siri... has prey drive. If the rattie girls scuffle she is there in .2 seconds, eyes hard, every muscle rigid. Sometimes she forgets the rules and screams/slams herself into their cage (and promptly lands herself in a crate). She has killed living things, with lots of pleasure. She screams and loses her cool if she sees a bird on the ground, or a squirrel.

There are times when I shake a fuzzy fur tug in her face, make it run around like a critter, and she stares at my like "Really? You really think I'm going to fall for that?". Sometimes she'll engage, but sometimes she doesn't. She'll drop a toy when asked. She cannot tear herself away from the rat cage without being physically moved away. So I wouldn't say she has a high toy drive.

She does, however, LOVE tennis balls. BUT...only if they squeak. If she picks up a tennis ball and it doesn't squeak, she drops it again and walks away. And it must be fuzzy, not a plastic substitute. I really do think that the reason she likes them so much is that they squeak like an animal.

As far as training goes, while I wish I could bring a squirrel on a leash to reward her with , I can't. So instead I am working on re-building some tug drive (she used to be an insane tugger, then went into heat, and now doesn't really care for tug for more than 30 seconds) so that we can use it in agility. Right now we rely on the ball too much, and it slows down training.

For out and about training I try to use Premack as much as possible. At the park if we see a squirrel, I will ask for attention, and if she gives it, I release her to chase the squirrel, but only if the squirrel is already in the tree, I don't want her actually catching a squirrel.

So I can see how being clear about exactly what kind of drive we’re talking about can definitely matter to some people - a lot. Because, IS a terrier who will chase a tennis ball for flyball but won’t hunt a rat in a barn still a self-respecting terrier? Can of worms indeed

I think it's all prey and thresholds and stimuli are the triggers. I don't think there is "ball drive", or toy drive, or tug drive or squirrel drive, those are just different ways to access prey drive.