would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

*snort*...yeah...people no longer hunt with dogs...LOL. coughcoughbullcrapcough.

So when was the last time one of your dogs went out and killed some large wild animal for the family to eat? how many dogs, out of all the millions upon millions of domestic dogs across the world, have to go out and hunt their own food to survive?

Enough said. People hunt with dogs yes. But domestic dogs don't hunt for themselves to eat and survive, which is why this arguement means nothing.

IT IS PREY DRIVE YOU DOOFUS.

You CANNOT TRAIN PREY DRIVE OUT. AT ALL EVER. That DOES NOT MAKE A DOG AGGRESSIVE.

All you can do is manage it, and train the dog to listen. And anyone who thinks that all the training in the world is going to teach a dog to listen all the time is crazy. Training a dog to be 99% reliable is brilliant training. But you still have that 1% that you cant count on.

And it is NOT like Dekka is letting Snip go around the neighborhood killing cats. What can she really do from across the yard if a cat wanders in the yard and Snip gets to it first? Three to five seconds. That is IT. Some people cant even REACT in three to five seconds, let alone make it across the yard to grab a dog intent on killing a cat.

Wow is all I have to say. Some people in here are clearly looking at dogs through rose colored glasses. Grow the **** up. A dog is a dog is a dog is a FCKING DOG. DOGS CAN AND DO KILL THINGS. Oz has killed SEVERAL SQUIRRELS. Should I only allow him outside with a muzzle on? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do that to my dog. As a matter of fact, I don't even own a muzzle. With other dogs around that puts him into a defensive anxious mode, and even MORE likely to snark/snap/bite at another dog. And then what? The other dog takes offense and attacks my dog, leaving him unable to even defend himself? I'm sorry, but I care WAY more about my dog that to have something like that happen.

Oz is under control in public and private situations. AT ALL TIMES. Even in our yard he is under control, and especially everywhere else. But if something triggers his prey drive off leash in the yard, squirrel, bird, or cat, I'm sorry, but there is not much I can do from the patio, and I have zero chance of making it too him in time to save whatever it is should he catch it. His prey drive is not extreme, but he IS part terrier and therefore prey drive is something I have to contend with at all times. I REFUSE to constantly have a leash on him in the yard, where I know he cannot get out of, and wont leave no matter what. Yes, I know he will not leave, no matter what. If a squirrel or cat makes it to the fence in time, it is home free, he will not go after it after that.

But if it can't get out? I try my damndest to get there and stop him, but I don't always make it in time. He has never killed a cat, and never even closed with one, but I have no doubt if he did corner one, and it fought back, he would turn on even more. He has killed many many many squirrels, chipmunks, moles, rats and voles. He keeps our old house rat free even more effectively than our cat does. It is instinct. I certainly DID NOT TEACH HIM to do that.

So prey drive makes him aggressive then? My my my, it is a sad sad world we live in.

Labra...you are incredibly obtuse and I am beginning to think it's purposeful LOL.

People can only hunt WITH dogs today...because the INSTINCT to hunt another animal for food...is still present!

It is totally...100% relevant.

NO ONE could use a Lab/Pointer/Setter/Spaniel to point/retrieve/flush birds...a Beagle to run rabbits (btw many Beagles are fed parts of the rabbits they find...duh)...or a Catahoula to catch hogs if the INSTINCT TO HUNT FOR THEMSELVES...was not present. Humans have haressed that for eons...and it is still there!

There is NO way you could get a domestic animal truly truly uninterested in obtaining it's own food by hunting it....to chase or point...or tree another animal! It is all related to prey and hunt drive...all of it. Dogs have not lost that as a whole..but there is a huge variance within breeds and even within individuals.

You really need to spend some time learning about animals. Domestication does not remove drives...we choose our dogs mates now...but the dog will still mount any bitch in season he can find. The dog does not hold territory in the wild anymore...but the dog will still bark at the meterman for invading the yard, even from an inside window. The dog is not bred to live with other dogs anymore, but with people....but they still form packs and attempt to use pack language to communicate with us.

You're really losing out on a lot of the richness of canine behavior by denying the existance of drives and their continued relevance to today's man/dog relationship...and that's such a shame.

HOLY WOW.

I thought this thread had veered off in a direction never intended by the original poster, but I had NO idea it found yet ANOTHER direction in which to turn.

Labra,
I don't have any words for you at the moment. You have said ENOUGH for me to know you are anti-pit bull and pro-BSL (at the VERY least, to some degree) and pro-robotic dog. CRAZY.


I have a question for all in this thread:
WHO here WILLINGLY allows their dog to KILL cats, squirrels, ferrets, rats, bunnies, or other furry non-dog animals?


SO...if I'm out in MY fenced in yard with my dog, and squirrel lands in front of her and I'm quite a distance away, I should be able to see this squirrel before she does, give her a simple "NO!" and expect her NOT to go after this squirrel with the intent to kill it?

WOW.

Pick up a book on dog behavior and drives, you'll learn plenty, as apparently you have some misconceptions. And the only reason dogs don't hunt on their own for food, is because we feed them. take humans out of the equation, you'd see lots of hunting dogs, well maybe not actually "see them" because humans are gone, but you get the point.

That said, prey drive can be controlled. Dogs can learn what is acceptable prey and what isn't most times, but prey drive does not equal aggression in the sense of the word that many believe it does.

I don't understand why people act as if this is impossible to achieve. MANY people are able to have that kind of control over their dog with hard work.

Some individuals may...but I bet that majority would not. Look at what selective breeding has done to so many dog breeds. Some that are obese, some that can't breathe properly, others with eyeballs that stick outside of their skulls, some with legs so short they can barely walk yet alone run just to name a few.

I own DA dogs. Not HA, DA, there is a difference. I have owned them forever, and will continue to won them as long as God graces me to do so.
I love my APBT

even though a lot of dogs have the drive, they don't have the complete sequence anymore in their brain. That's why pointers point, their brain shuts off half way thru the prey sequence. Well in an indeal world anyway. Lots of people say dogs can't eat a just killed animal becuase they don't have the "disection" part in their brain anymore. I say toss a dead duck at my dogs feet and watch it get destroyed.

I'm not talking about teaching a "leave it" command or an "off" or a "ignore" command (all of which my dog is EXCELLENT with), but making those pertainable to a drive instinct is sometimes hard to do, unpredictable, almost impossible and at best, situational.

If she is closer to the squirrel and her drive kicks in faster than I can say "NO!", guess what?
If she catches that squirrel because she was faster than it, then she's got herself a squirrel.

And she's not an aggressive dog, you twit. I'm done with this thread.

I would never willingly let Oz kill any other animal. If I can prevent it, I do. But to expect me to make it across my yard (which is AT LEAST 100 feet) to Ozzy if a squirrel should jump over the fence in front of him, or fall out of a tree feet from him and stop him from killing it, then you have another think coming. And to label him aggressive for that is insanely STUPID AND COMPLETELY shows a LACK of intelligence and thought on your part.

I have no doubt if I needed Ozzy to hunt for me, in the woods to feed ourselves, he could and would be able to do it.

yes, and this includes thikngs like preydrive.

Look at a lot of terriers. Bred to work away from their handlers, make their own decisions and kill prey. Not hold it, not move it around, to kill it. Punishing a terrier (particularily terriers but really, dogs in general) for prey drive is like punishing a point for pointer or a herder for herding.

Harry nips, it isn't aggressive. Its herding instinct.

BTW if we are discussing dog aggro behavior...which I am thinking was the original point of this thread...I would put forth that snottiness with other DOGS, to the extent that serious blood drawing fights and worse, occur....is a MORE alarming issue than prey aggro behavior simply because dogs are a social species dependant on the formation of groups to raise young successfully at it's inception.

That man has in several breeds removed that drive to be together and be cooperative, to an extent that fights not over important things like mates or food or territory result and are encouraged (speaking of the sordid dog fighting crowd)...is far more alarming to me, than a Terrier showing interest in killing a smaller animal, which is a natural canine behavior.

Akitas were originally a hunting breed used in pairs to hunt deer pigs and even the occasional bear. They are a primative breed, meaning that packs were not really as important as the pair bonds developed...several breeds fall under this umbrella.

They were used to fight in Feudal Japan and when they began losing against the imported Western dogs those dogs were crossed in to the Akita. They got better at it but were eventually cast aside in favor of the Tosa.

The remnants of this history, which speaking of dogs is pretty recent (1900's) is evident in many Akitas today. It is even in the standard as a cautionary mention. Many breeders are working to lessen the dog aggression...but finding it a hard, hard go.

I personally think that while prey drive is a general thing found in ALL predatory species...the togetherness of the pack, a co operative huntin is so unique to canids...that messing with that...breaking the bonds of the pack as it were...created something sticky...that will take a long long time to fix.

Given the trouble the Akita folks (those actively trying...they aren't all worried about it) are having with it....and the Bully people too (tho I admit to not knowing if the APBT folks actively select against dog aggression at this time)....it is perhaps something that will never truly be repaired.

Thoughts?

Thank you. That is EXACTLY what I am trying to say.

I think your exactly right. I love researching different drives and I was reading about pack drive the other day (it might have been this thread actually, or another forum) that breeds like beagles have been bred to have very good pack drive, that you can run a LOT of intact dogs together because they were bred to be ableto hunt that way for so long.
Then you look at breeds like APBT where I imagine the pack structure would be so so different.
It really is one of those things that relaly define "dog" and I think a lot of breeds have lost a lot of it. It will be interesting reviewing pack drive (or prey drive) in different breeds again in 20, 50 or 100 years and seeing what a change the breeds of today have made and what they've changed regarding this.

Sad to say, that was probably the best thing to do.

No one is "letting" their dog kill cats. If your dog has never before killed a cat and in 3-5 seconds he kills his first cat, there is really nothing that could have been done. Sometimes you simply don't know that you have a cat-killing dog until it happens. I had a dog that I don't doubt would have killed a cat had she had the opportunity. She also eyed small dogs as if they were prey animals, until she got within sniffing range and she would cautiously approach them and start to realize it was a dog. You could see the thought process happening.

Prey driven animals are not the same thing as aggressive. Game JRT's are not aggressive, they are doing what they have been bred to do.

Corgis have a long history of having been used as mousers. They do have a hunting and killing instinct in conjunction with their herding instinct. If a corgi hunts and kills a mouse, that wouldn't make him aggressive, it would make him a working corgi doing what corgis were bred for.

Yea, when I was a kid we had cats. We always let them outside, they wandered the immediate neighbors' yards. We lived in an area where pretty much everyone did that. We never thought twice about it. When my mom moved into NYC, we had our first experience with indoor cat keeping. The cats were totally fine with it. My mom's roommate has a cat who is leash trained, and they will sometimes take a walk down the hallway for fun. If someone allows their cat to wander loose, and that cat gets hurt in my yard by my dog, well, that's no different from if someone else's loose dog gets hurt in my yard. Take responsibility for your own pets and keep them at home or on a leash, whether that pet is a cat or a dog.

It's prey drive.

Why should cats be allowed to roam freely? If you want to keep your cat safe, then you should do so by adequately containing him. There are even some really cool outdoor cat cages that allow the cat ample opportunity for fresh air and sunshine while keeping him safe. Free roaming cats can be a nuisance.

yes, a majority would not, and in a few short years those "types" of dogs would no longer be around. hard to live if you can't eat. There are still plenty of dogs that can and will and are driven beyond what most people can understand. They would survive

Ok, going to step in and give just a little bit of info on WORKING TERRIERS, mainly Jrts. Because I know that of everyone on the forum, I have the most knowledge and experience to back up what I say.

Lets start with prey drives and working ability, one can not compare ANY field working breed of dog with a EARTH WORKING TERRIER. For the simple reason that for generations the said dogs have been bred for very different jobs. Field dogs as we all know are to locate, point and retreive, with a soft mouth. Any field dog that rags on a bird and can't be stopped of ragging on that bird is culled.
Now Jrts are suppose to engage the quarry, in the case of Jrts and foxes, they are suppost to bolt or bottle up the quarry until dug to.
Other breeds of Terriers are or were known as DRAW dogs, enter, locate, kill the quarry and DRAW it out.
Working Terriers are classified into two groups, hard and soft.
Hard is a dog that if given the chance will kill the quarry.
Soft is a dog that bays at quarry.
Both do the job by entering, locating quarry. Some working terrier people like and want a Harder terrier (depends on what they are working/hunting for and the terrian) and others like and want a Softer Terrier.

Some Terriers can be trained to call of cats...........others can't. It has nothing to do with the quality of the training but completly depends on the dog.
My Petie is a very good working Jrt, he is considered to be a good solid working dog not by me but from well known and respected Working Terriermen. This dog will call off of a cat, but I would never say with a guarantee that he would never kill a cat.
And Smkie.............squirrels to my dogs are toys, something to play with........its not quarry.

The other interesting fact is that many many Field (bird) dogs are trained with E collars, just to bring home the fact that ragging on the bird is a no no.
Now I have no experience with Field dogs, but I certainly know many hunters with them and that is what they tell me.
Oh ya, since this thread is suppose to be about DA, I have NEVER seen a fight in the working field with WORKING Terriers, even with several loose at once, including intact males and muliple bitches............

Anyone wanting to argue about working terriers, bring it on, I do believe I am up for the challenge.

You do not punish, you direct. Pepper likes to chase squirrels. VIctor likes to chase squirrels. ARE they allowed to corner and try to bark it out of the tree...no. I do cross all 2 acres, usually at a quick clip because i respect my nieghbor's right to sleep in on a monday morning and it isn't 9 am yes. If it were 1 pm i would be hot on the arses for this behavior. DO they stop chasing squirrels? NO, but they do it in silence. Do they learn to call off when they are told YES> and yours can learn it too if you are willing to pay one hundred percent attention to your dog when it is outside. Until you know that it can control itself outside and not make a bother of itself. Then you can relax. THat is how the rest of us do it. By not making a bunch of breed excuses. IF it wasn't for that kind of thinking we wouldn't have breed bans. PEople would look at the dog as the individual it is and respond accordingly. I send them after squirrels just for fun if i know the squirrel is far enough away to make it sport but not end up in an injury to either my dog or the squirrel, i do not send them after rabits because it can cause them to abort.. CATS are forbidden. ASk VIctor how that was hammered in his head, he would have been one cat killing dog if he was allowed to behave the way he came. I forgot i said i was going to stay away..oops.

TBH, if I weren't worried about diseases and parasites, I would let the dogs kill mice and rats. I am squeamish when I see them - especially rats. If the dogs could handle pest control, I'd be happy.