I am pretty sure I know the answer but what is the general consensus about e-collars. I have seen some amazing work with these collars and the dogs appear to be very very happy. Able to walk off leash around other dogs, in dog parks and around other people. I am really only wondering because of the strong negative connotation with the dreaded "SHOCK COLLAR!!".
e-collars ???
- Thread starter oose
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Im sure this link will give you all the info you need and want (and then some) on the subject.
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48544
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48544
I have one.. To a point it saved our relationship.. Months of work on varying long lines went down the drain the day she decided Mom can't make me listen. I bought it more for the beep than the stim though. Really isn't the tool for every dog..
Only thing I ever really did need a negative for in training ever. Rarely ever used the stim, and now once in a blue moon use the beep when off leash. We are progressively weaning off of it, and then I'll pull the batteries off and put it away.
I want to move to whistle work.
Only thing I ever really did need a negative for in training ever. Rarely ever used the stim, and now once in a blue moon use the beep when off leash. We are progressively weaning off of it, and then I'll pull the batteries off and put it away.
I want to move to whistle work.
I personally don't like any "training" collar as I think all dogs can be trained without them, it may take a little longer or a little more effort but it can be done. Plus I don't think there should be any pain or fear in training it should be fun. i mean if you were punished (with pain or fear) for getting a wrong answer in school you'd probably hate it and just stop participating in class. if instead you got a reward and lots of "great answer, good jobs" every time you got a right answer then you'd love it and strive to succeed and participate. At least that's how I see it. I just think why scare or hurt my dog when i don't have to. i think about training and I think it's fun to see the dog finally figure out how to get the reward from you and then repeat the behavior over and over because he is so proud he figured it out. i would not like training to be the dogs not getting it so he has a jump of pain and looks to you with fear or confusion in his eyes and keep doing that until he figures out how to avoid the pain and continues for the relief. It's less of a partnership, lets work this out together and more of do what i say or else. That's just how I see it and i have always enjoyed training and how much fun it is for me and my dog. people who have used them will probably feel differently but my opinion will probably never change since I find them unnecessary and know that my future dogs and i will do fine without them as i am willing to take all the time that is necessary to train a behavior (or un-train a behavior). Once again that's just my opinion.
OK. I'm not sure how other dog sports are utilizing the e-collar, but I will give you some insight to how most of the birddog world is using it.
Commands are taught w/o e-collar. Later when a dog can take more pressure, etc. the e-collar is introduced and used to reinforce a command... not to punish. Eventually no e-collar is used. No everyone with a gundog is using the e-collar, either.
An example would be a dog that is so intense on his own thing that a command is given and there is no response. Dog, WHOA! No response. WHOA *nick*. Dog has whoa'd (and prevented from moving in and flushing birds, getting into a dangerous situation, etc.). Dogs that are correctly conditioned to an e-collar are not scared by it, they do not cower or completely shut down.
The only 'punishing' way I have seen it used is snake breaking dogs. My OWN dog has been standing over a STRIKING (!!!!) venomous snake. I was not about to get in there and pull him off and risk getting bit myself.
I realize treats and whatnot are what some people will ONLY use and I understand that for a non-working dog or for a sport done inside a ring (controlled enviroment). But treats and clicks are not ideal for everything.
And, FWIW, I was not punished in school (in fact, I had it easier than most)... and I still stopped participating
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Commands are taught w/o e-collar. Later when a dog can take more pressure, etc. the e-collar is introduced and used to reinforce a command... not to punish. Eventually no e-collar is used. No everyone with a gundog is using the e-collar, either.
An example would be a dog that is so intense on his own thing that a command is given and there is no response. Dog, WHOA! No response. WHOA *nick*. Dog has whoa'd (and prevented from moving in and flushing birds, getting into a dangerous situation, etc.). Dogs that are correctly conditioned to an e-collar are not scared by it, they do not cower or completely shut down.
The only 'punishing' way I have seen it used is snake breaking dogs. My OWN dog has been standing over a STRIKING (!!!!) venomous snake. I was not about to get in there and pull him off and risk getting bit myself.
I realize treats and whatnot are what some people will ONLY use and I understand that for a non-working dog or for a sport done inside a ring (controlled enviroment). But treats and clicks are not ideal for everything.
And, FWIW, I was not punished in school (in fact, I had it easier than most)... and I still stopped participating
.
Haha, Well so do I, but that's cause it's too boring they could make school so much more entertaining don't you think?
Any ways you make a very good point, i have no idea how it is used for working dogs so I guess I was not speaking for them in that sort of environment I was thinking more everyday training. Of course if it's a life or death situation like the snake situation you had (that must have been VERY scary, I'm glad your dog was ok) then any measures to save your dog and keep yourself safe must be used and of course no one should think it was wrong that you did that.
Well, I have a dog who can "walk off leash around other dogs, in dog parks and around other people", and I have never used a shock collar on her. I know nothing about training a hunting dog, so I certainly can't comment on the use of shock collars with that, but I don't think they are necessary for training correct behavior in a pet. Of course, I have a dog who will shut down at the slightest hint of displeasure, so I'm pretty certain a shock collar would end any chance we have of working together!
Honestly, if it were a matter of "the only way I can teach my dog to obey off-leash is to use a shock collar"...I'd just keep my dog on a leash outside fenced in areas. I know there are people who disagree, but for me, they are not ever an option.
Honestly, if it were a matter of "the only way I can teach my dog to obey off-leash is to use a shock collar"...I'd just keep my dog on a leash outside fenced in areas. I know there are people who disagree, but for me, they are not ever an option.
I totally agree. I haven't used an e-collar anywhere but the field, and even then I haven't used it in a long time.
I'll actually be starting agility lessons next week with my GSP... and I wouldn't even think about using an e-collar in that situation.
There is a certain "training" business that is marketed around the US. I was watching some of their videos on YouTube. Every. Single. Dog. has an e-collar on and in EVERY video--even the main trainer/owner uses one in every video and in demos. This place, I'll call them S.M.S., even had them on very young puppies. E-collars have their place but in such a controlled enviroment it really doesn't make sense to me.
No wonder he can do such "amazing" things so quickly .
I'll actually be starting agility lessons next week with my GSP... and I wouldn't even think about using an e-collar in that situation.
There is a certain "training" business that is marketed around the US. I was watching some of their videos on YouTube. Every. Single. Dog. has an e-collar on and in EVERY video--even the main trainer/owner uses one in every video and in demos. This place, I'll call them S.M.S., even had them on very young puppies. E-collars have their place but in such a controlled enviroment it really doesn't make sense to me.
No wonder he can do such "amazing" things so quickly
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I totally agree with, BB. I really think there is no need for one. You can train a dog so many other ways. Why some one will use those is beyond me, for anything.
If it was either have my dog walk off leash around other things and have a shock collar on or always wear a leash, I would go for the leash in a heart-beat.
If it was either have my dog walk off leash around other things and have a shock collar on or always wear a leash, I would go for the leash in a heart-beat.
This is the video I saw and the dog looks very happy. I only want you to see where I am coming from.
http://sitmeanssit.com/content/vid33.html
http://sitmeanssit.com/content/vid33.html
oose, I don't remember what kind of dog you have and I'm not even sure what problems you're trying to solve with an e-collar that you think can't be solved without one. As far as obedience goes, there's simply no place for a shock collar in the obedience ring and ANY decent trainer will tell you the same thing. Why add pain if it's not necessary?
As for the video, there's absolutely nothing amazing about what that dog did.
You can find videos, much more impressive videos actually, right here on Chaz of dogs who were trained with positive methods by non-trainers.
I never use them for anything, would never allow them in class and will absolutely not work with them. Having said that, I have many clients who I've talked out of using them by SHOWING them equally impressive results as what you've shown in the video without so much as a regular buckle collar collar correction.
As for the video, there's absolutely nothing amazing about what that dog did.
You can find videos, much more impressive videos actually, right here on Chaz of dogs who were trained with positive methods by non-trainers.
I never use them for anything, would never allow them in class and will absolutely not work with them. Having said that, I have many clients who I've talked out of using them by SHOWING them equally impressive results as what you've shown in the video without so much as a regular buckle collar collar correction.
My dog does not have a problem. I was only wondering what the consensus was. The dogs appeared happy and I have never been able to achieve that level of communication with the dog. Are there any comparable videos, again only a question I am not trying to doubt your statement?
I would also like to say that yes why add pain if not needed. Is the collar actually adding pain or is it something else? What I mean is and this is totally subjective, I do know those collars are variable. Could they rather be getting the dogs attention with low stimulus rather than shocking the dog into submission? It is the only thing I can come up with with them looking happy.
I would also like to say that yes why add pain if not needed. Is the collar actually adding pain or is it something else? What I mean is and this is totally subjective, I do know those collars are variable. Could they rather be getting the dogs attention with low stimulus rather than shocking the dog into submission? It is the only thing I can come up with with them looking happy.
A couple that come to mind are some of RD's and of Redre's.
Also, can you tell me when or even if the dog in the video was shocked?
What you don't see (on purpose) in the video is when/if corrections are being delivered how the dog reacts. This can absolutely ruin a dog, I've seen it happen. The stress added by shocking a dog during what should be a period of motivation and eager learning even when proofing is simple lazyness on the part of the "trainer".
I guess the only reason that people use these devices is because they can....not because they have to.
I don't at all think that your trying to agrue oose and I don't want to come accross as harsh myself but in my opinion, the thought of using a shock collar to TRAIN a dog is just out of the realm or reasonable.
Also, can you tell me when or even if the dog in the video was shocked?
What you don't see (on purpose) in the video is when/if corrections are being delivered how the dog reacts. This can absolutely ruin a dog, I've seen it happen. The stress added by shocking a dog during what should be a period of motivation and eager learning even when proofing is simple lazyness on the part of the "trainer".
I guess the only reason that people use these devices is because they can....not because they have to.
I don't at all think that your trying to agrue oose and I don't want to come accross as harsh myself but in my opinion, the thought of using a shock collar to TRAIN a dog is just out of the realm or reasonable.
I totally agree. I haven't used an e-collar anywhere but the field, and even then I haven't used it in a long time.
I'll actually be starting agility lessons next week with my GSP... and I wouldn't even think about using an e-collar in that situation.
There is a certain "training" business that is marketed around the US. I was watching some of their videos on YouTube. Every. Single. Dog. has an e-collar on and in EVERY video--even the main trainer/owner uses one in every video and in demos. This place, I'll call them S.M.S., even had them on very young puppies. E-collars have their place but in such a controlled enviroment it really doesn't make sense to me.
No wonder he can do such "amazing" things so quickly .
I'll actually be starting agility lessons next week with my GSP... and I wouldn't even think about using an e-collar in that situation.
There is a certain "training" business that is marketed around the US. I was watching some of their videos on YouTube. Every. Single. Dog. has an e-collar on and in EVERY video--even the main trainer/owner uses one in every video and in demos. This place, I'll call them S.M.S., even had them on very young puppies. E-collars have their place but in such a controlled enviroment it really doesn't make sense to me.
No wonder he can do such "amazing" things so quickly
.
That is what fred DOES> He only trains with e-collars, he doesn't do anything without them.
Most of the e-collar trainers out there do what doberkim said, they use the collar for absolutely EVERYTHING.
They put a shock in place of verbal corrections, leash correction and verbal guidance.
Before I even put the collar on, after speaking with some of the best in e-collar training, or the best as other e-collar people label them, I had already drilled into my OWN head, that I wouldn't be using the collar the same way they instructed me too. I made MY OWN limits for the collar, based on me, my dog and in general, my own personal opinion on what was neccessary.
So many people get talked into using the collar where it's not neccessary and over use of the collar where it's not neccessary.
I have my collar, I haven't used it that much, but it was a difficult choice that was made based on the fact that I had, in my opinion, and other respectable trainers opinions, exhausted every other method to the best of my ability.
As BB said, for walking off leash, IMO, I don't really feel an e-collar is neccessary.
They put a shock in place of verbal corrections, leash correction and verbal guidance.
Before I even put the collar on, after speaking with some of the best in e-collar training, or the best as other e-collar people label them, I had already drilled into my OWN head, that I wouldn't be using the collar the same way they instructed me too. I made MY OWN limits for the collar, based on me, my dog and in general, my own personal opinion on what was neccessary.
So many people get talked into using the collar where it's not neccessary and over use of the collar where it's not neccessary.
I have my collar, I haven't used it that much, but it was a difficult choice that was made based on the fact that I had, in my opinion, and other respectable trainers opinions, exhausted every other method to the best of my ability.
As BB said, for walking off leash, IMO, I don't really feel an e-collar is neccessary.
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