Unchain the dogs of New York State!
- Thread starter lakotasong
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The ethical owners that I am acquainted with who have invisible fencing don't leave the dogs out unattended - they go out in the yard to spend time with their dogs and use the invisible fence because it allows them to safely play with their (trained) dog. I agree, there are a number of bad things that could happen if someone just throws their dog out in an invisible fence yard and leaves it alone, or if someone doesn't train a dog properly to an invisible fence - but most people who go to the expense of installing an invisible fence aren't that irresponsible.
Just because an invisible fence isn't the right answer for every dog, that doesn't excuse chaining.
And I do have experience with numerous bully breeds, including APBT and AST. I have worked with the countless bullies that end up in rescue, have fostered some in my own home and also have friends and clients who own them. Yes, some of them have a lot of drive and some of them intact - but none of them are contained by chains.
Just because an invisible fence isn't the right answer for every dog, that doesn't excuse chaining.
And I do have experience with numerous bully breeds, including APBT and AST. I have worked with the countless bullies that end up in rescue, have fostered some in my own home and also have friends and clients who own them. Yes, some of them have a lot of drive and some of them intact - but none of them are contained by chains.
Hahahahaha.
My next door neighbors leave their dog out in the fence all the time, and rarely do I see them play ball with him (he isn't neglected in other ways though, they do give him food and water and vet care, and the kids play with him sometimes). I'm glad he's a good dog and doesn't try to run through the fence, or bark at us or anything.
The neighbors down the street have two GSPs. The young one is trained to the fence and stays put, and the old one is allowed to roam the neighborhood. They are outside almost all the time, not usually with people. The construction crew building houses came to my door and asked me who the old dog belongs to because they wanted to make sure she wasn't lost.
The neighbors with the boxer have an electric fence, but they never trained their boxer to it. She never wears the fence collar. Although she's not usually outside without them. This dog attacked Benji twice and my dad called AC on her the second time.
My dogs go out with me and we play Frisbee. Then they come back in. They are never left out unsupervised.
My next door neighbors leave their dog out in the fence all the time, and rarely do I see them play ball with him (he isn't neglected in other ways though, they do give him food and water and vet care, and the kids play with him sometimes). I'm glad he's a good dog and doesn't try to run through the fence, or bark at us or anything.
The neighbors down the street have two GSPs. The young one is trained to the fence and stays put, and the old one is allowed to roam the neighborhood. They are outside almost all the time, not usually with people. The construction crew building houses came to my door and asked me who the old dog belongs to because they wanted to make sure she wasn't lost.
The neighbors with the boxer have an electric fence, but they never trained their boxer to it. She never wears the fence collar. Although she's not usually outside without them. This dog attacked Benji twice and my dad called AC on her the second time.
My dogs go out with me and we play Frisbee. Then they come back in. They are never left out unsupervised.
Just like my good friends neighbor right? He has an invisible fence..his dog spends his days in night out in that yard, no walks, no attention..nothing..he just sits there day in and day out...escapes the yard every now and then as well.
But wait..he is not chained so that makes everything ok right? His owner MUST be a responsible dog owner then.
But wait..he is not chained so that makes everything ok right? His owner MUST be a responsible dog owner then.
LMAO. Just.. wow.
Any idiot can shell out the bucks to have people install an invisible fence. Not sure how that correlates to RESPONSIBILITY, but we've already determined you have problems with that word anyhow.
I know loads of people with invisible fences. My neighbors' doesn't work on one of their dogs, so he isn't allowed to run loose on the property. My friends' parents let their dog out to roam, un-supervised, with it. My ex-neighbors (all I can say is, to the dear folks of Washington.. I AM SO SORRY!) had one that didn't contain their dogs and let them loose in it all the time, even though we also have DA dogs that run loose in the neighborhood and not one but TWO neighbors who have a phobia of dogs.
Invisible fence = responsible?
Any idiot can shell out the bucks to have people install an invisible fence. Not sure how that correlates to RESPONSIBILITY, but we've already determined you have problems with that word anyhow.
I know loads of people with invisible fences. My neighbors' doesn't work on one of their dogs, so he isn't allowed to run loose on the property. My friends' parents let their dog out to roam, un-supervised, with it. My ex-neighbors (all I can say is, to the dear folks of Washington.. I AM SO SORRY!) had one that didn't contain their dogs and let them loose in it all the time, even though we also have DA dogs that run loose in the neighborhood and not one but TWO neighbors who have a phobia of dogs.
Invisible fence = responsible?
really!!?? tell that to my friend's schnauzer who was badly hurt after the neighbour's dog left the invisible fence (yes dog was supervised and the collar was working) and then charged through my friends fencing and attacked her dog.
Summit View..why is tying bad? What exactly is it that it does to the dog?
Please Summitview..PLEASE tell me how this dog is abused. How containing a known cat killing dog in the only secure way that works, allowing him to spend time playing in the kiddie pool and with the hose with my son and I, is so wrong?? Please I just can't see it. Should I leave him in the house by himself in a crate? Would you find that more humane?
Summit View..why is tying bad? What exactly is it that it does to the dog?
Please Summitview..PLEASE tell me how this dog is abused. How containing a known cat killing dog in the only secure way that works, allowing him to spend time playing in the kiddie pool and with the hose with my son and I, is so wrong?? Please I just can't see it. Should I leave him in the house by himself in a crate? Would you find that more humane?
LOL
Please... all the people I know with an invisible fence use them as an excuse to let the dogs out and do whatever. None are contained and yes, this has ended up in several dog fights between these dogs and other, PROPERLY contained dogs on their own property.
So wait... you're saying that someone can have an invisible fence- which is a good method of containing a dog within a yard- and misuse it?
Wow, that sounds a lot like chaining, doesn't it?
The point is, someone can use ANY tool wrongly and become abusive with it. Imo it is abusive to try to contain a dog without using the invisible fencing properly much the same way it is to use other methods (coughtetherscough).
Obviously dogs that are starved, have imbedded collars, no access to shelters, etc are abused and we should do something about that. That's what cruelty laws are for.
Please... all the people I know with an invisible fence use them as an excuse to let the dogs out and do whatever. None are contained and yes, this has ended up in several dog fights between these dogs and other, PROPERLY contained dogs on their own property.
So wait... you're saying that someone can have an invisible fence- which is a good method of containing a dog within a yard- and misuse it?
Wow, that sounds a lot like chaining, doesn't it?
The point is, someone can use ANY tool wrongly and become abusive with it. Imo it is abusive to try to contain a dog without using the invisible fencing properly much the same way it is to use other methods (coughtetherscough).
Obviously dogs that are starved, have imbedded collars, no access to shelters, etc are abused and we should do something about that. That's what cruelty laws are for.
Ya well... dog fighting is illegal but... GASP... it still happens doesn't it.
SO... what exactly do you think banning chainging will do?
Starving your dog is illegal... yet it still happens.
Beating your dog is illegal yet it STILL happens.
I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. The ONLY ones these laws affect are the people that DON'T abuse their dogs in the first place.
Honestly, I think you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong and that there ARE times that tethering is perfectly acceptable. Why do I think you know you are wrong? because now you are just throwing out ridiculous statements just to say that is better than tethering. Like electric collars. I REALLY have a hard time believing that you REALLY believe a shock is better than being tied up on a chain while playing with their owner so they can at least run.
AND you still didn't answer my question....
If tethering a dog and playing with them in the backyard is so bad... why is it different than putting them on a leash and taking them for a walk? They are still bound by a chain or rope of sorts. So what is the difference? why is it acceptable to tether your dog to take them for a walk but NOT acceptable to tether your dog to play in the yard?
I suspect you really have no answer to this question and hence why you have ignored it.
and before you go all drama queen... don't worry... this isn't a threat of any kind or harrassment... it's ONLY a question
SO... what exactly do you think banning chainging will do?
Starving your dog is illegal... yet it still happens.
Beating your dog is illegal yet it STILL happens.
I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. The ONLY ones these laws affect are the people that DON'T abuse their dogs in the first place.
Honestly, I think you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong and that there ARE times that tethering is perfectly acceptable. Why do I think you know you are wrong? because now you are just throwing out ridiculous statements just to say that is better than tethering. Like electric collars. I REALLY have a hard time believing that you REALLY believe a shock is better than being tied up on a chain while playing with their owner so they can at least run.
AND you still didn't answer my question....
If tethering a dog and playing with them in the backyard is so bad... why is it different than putting them on a leash and taking them for a walk? They are still bound by a chain or rope of sorts. So what is the difference? why is it acceptable to tether your dog to take them for a walk but NOT acceptable to tether your dog to play in the yard?
I suspect you really have no answer to this question and hence why you have ignored it.
and before you go all drama queen... don't worry... this isn't a threat of any kind or harrassment... it's ONLY a question
Laurelin.. :hail: Good posting.
:hail:
Sadly, that question, and others like it, have been asked soooooo many times and not gotten any answer other than a post saying "I've answered many questions both in and out of this thread."
And by the way, Sparks, you're a pretty darn nice person. I was thinking a totally different word than stubborn. Or an entirely different agenda all together...
Ya well... dog fighting is illegal but... GASP... it still happens doesn't it.
SO... what exactly do you think banning chaining will do?
Starving your dog is illegal... yet it still happens.
Beating your dog is illegal yet it STILL happens.
I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. The ONLY ones these laws affect are the people that DON'T abuse their dogs in the first place.
Honestly, I think you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong and that there ARE times that tethering is perfectly acceptable. Why do I think you know you are wrong? because now you are just throwing out ridiculous statements just to say that is better than tethering. Like electric collars. I REALLY have a hard time believing that you REALLY believe a shock is better than being tied up on a chain while playing with their owner so they can at least run.
AND you still didn't answer my question....
If tethering a dog and playing with them in the backyard is so bad... why is it different than putting them on a leash and taking them for a walk? They are still bound by a chain or rope of sorts. So what is the difference? why is it acceptable to tether your dog to take them for a walk but NOT acceptable to tether your dog to play in the yard?
I suspect you really have no answer to this question and hence why you have ignored it.
and before you go all drama queen... don't worry... this isn't a threat of any kind or harrassment... it's ONLY a question
SO... what exactly do you think banning chaining will do?
Starving your dog is illegal... yet it still happens.
Beating your dog is illegal yet it STILL happens.
I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. The ONLY ones these laws affect are the people that DON'T abuse their dogs in the first place.
Honestly, I think you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong and that there ARE times that tethering is perfectly acceptable. Why do I think you know you are wrong? because now you are just throwing out ridiculous statements just to say that is better than tethering. Like electric collars. I REALLY have a hard time believing that you REALLY believe a shock is better than being tied up on a chain while playing with their owner so they can at least run.
AND you still didn't answer my question....
If tethering a dog and playing with them in the backyard is so bad... why is it different than putting them on a leash and taking them for a walk? They are still bound by a chain or rope of sorts. So what is the difference? why is it acceptable to tether your dog to take them for a walk but NOT acceptable to tether your dog to play in the yard?
I suspect you really have no answer to this question and hence why you have ignored it.
and before you go all drama queen... don't worry... this isn't a threat of any kind or harrassment... it's ONLY a question
Sadly, that question, and others like it, have been asked soooooo many times and not gotten any answer other than a post saying "I've answered many questions both in and out of this thread."
And by the way, Sparks, you're a pretty darn nice person. I was thinking a totally different word than stubborn. Or an entirely different agenda all together...
I have a fealing she has been told by her AR controllers/mentors that any publicity of this petition is still good publicity. Im sure she has been directed to ignore any valid questions, or not to give direct answers to them. It is obvious she is not thinking for herself, even Scientologists will answer half of the questions directed at them.
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uh...WHAT?? LOL I have NO clue as to your point. so if you will make it clear, I'd be happy to listen.
It's all about choices. The OP believes that neglect can be eliminated by banning certain tools like tethers.
The vast majority of people in this thread disagree and believe that neglectful owners are going to be neglectful regardless of whether or not they tether their dogs. Feeding, watering, cleaning, grooming, socialization, veterinary care, exercise...these are all things that are driven by love and compassion of the owner. Do you think that simply banning tethering is going to create love and compassoin?
IMO, the hardest thing to get past for some people is the stereotype image of a starving, filthy dog chained to a doghouse day after day with no social contact. I believe that 100% of people on this board agree that this is unexcusable and owners should be held responsible.
However, there are many humane uses for tethering that are the best options for responsible owners. If a ban is unlikely to change neglectful owners, what would be gained by punishing responsible owners and in some cases making it more difficult to be responsible?
I'm going to go a step further and say that, although it is not the right choice for my own dogs, I don't believe that the use of a chain as a primary means of confinement in special cases (i.e. sled dogs, hunting dogs, etc.) is inhumane either as long as the basic needs are met:
Health care (preventive and corrective)
Sanitation (daily)
Food (ample daily quantity and quality)
Water (clean water daily)
Socialization (daily with dogs, people, or both)
Grooming (appropriate for breed)
Exercise (daily & appropriate for breed)
Shelter (appropriate for breed)
Protection from other animals
Most communities already have laws that address these things and each and every need can be satisfied or neglected whether on or off a chain.
Debbie
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OK...you are just too funny
Since you have obviously forgotten your own position, this exerpt from http://www.chazhound.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=466490 should remind you that you do in fact advocate the use of shock collars.
Don't worry. I do occasionally myself so long as it's under the guidance of an experienced trainer and when alternative methods have been tried and failed.
Debbie
Since you have obviously forgotten your own position, this exerpt from http://www.chazhound.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=466490 should remind you that you do in fact advocate the use of shock collars.
Don't worry
. I do occasionally myself so long as it's under the guidance of an experienced trainer and when alternative methods have been tried and failed. Debbie
Summitview, HOW do you suggest people confine their dogs then, hmm?
I mean, seriously. People work. Dogs need to be left unattended sometimes. Which is more cruel - 8 hours in a crate or 8 hours on a 10ft chain, properly installed into the ground (not tied around a tree so the dog can shorten its tether).
Leaving dogs unattended in the backyard is irresponsible, because they can jump the fence. Leaving them unattended in the house is irresponsible because they can get into something poisonous, break a window, electrocute themselves or get injured by another dog in the house. Leaving them in a dog-proofed room or crate is irresponsible because the poor dog shouldn't be spending so much time locked up. So would you please tell me how you think a dog should be confined while its owner is away? And please address my actual question, don't tell me that people who work full time shouldn't have dogs.
This is my problem with the whole AR agenda. There is no responsible way to own a pet without treating it like a little furry human, anthropomorphizing the animal and giving it a life of luxury that frankly, most HUMANS don't ever see. But, then, because some people abuse their pets, it's probably best if all pets disappeared anyway. Entire breeds, entire species should just go extinct to save a few of their members from the horrific abuse some twisted humans inflict on them. Not to mention CHAINING, oh my.
I am AMAZED that you would advocate the use of an electric collar, but consider chains cruel. A chain doesn't hurt a dog or cause fear. It's not a torture device.
Until you stop being a hypocrite I refuse to take anything you say seriously.
I mean, seriously. People work. Dogs need to be left unattended sometimes. Which is more cruel - 8 hours in a crate or 8 hours on a 10ft chain, properly installed into the ground (not tied around a tree so the dog can shorten its tether).
Leaving dogs unattended in the backyard is irresponsible, because they can jump the fence. Leaving them unattended in the house is irresponsible because they can get into something poisonous, break a window, electrocute themselves or get injured by another dog in the house. Leaving them in a dog-proofed room or crate is irresponsible because the poor dog shouldn't be spending so much time locked up. So would you please tell me how you think a dog should be confined while its owner is away? And please address my actual question, don't tell me that people who work full time shouldn't have dogs.
This is my problem with the whole AR agenda. There is no responsible way to own a pet without treating it like a little furry human, anthropomorphizing the animal and giving it a life of luxury that frankly, most HUMANS don't ever see. But, then, because some people abuse their pets, it's probably best if all pets disappeared anyway. Entire breeds, entire species should just go extinct to save a few of their members from the horrific abuse some twisted humans inflict on them. Not to mention CHAINING, oh my.
I am AMAZED that you would advocate the use of an electric collar, but consider chains cruel. A chain doesn't hurt a dog or cause fear. It's not a torture device.
Until you stop being a hypocrite I refuse to take anything you say seriously.