Trouble with Recalls

[Elrohwen]

Pretty sure he was just saying what works for him, just like you and I are doing. It's up to the reader to be responsible, research methods and find what will work best for them.

Different dogs and different handlers utilize different techniques. Deal with it.

I agree. I'm as positive as possible, but I do respect P+ and I know it can work. Honestly one of the only things that has toned Watson down around the rabbits is the spray bottle. I tried months of R+ and P- training, but nothing has made as much of an impact as spraying him a couple times. So while I don't like to use it and would try every other option first, I'm not opposed to considering it.

Also, most ecollar use by hunters falls into R- really. Also not something I want to use, but it can have it's purposes.

 

[Dizzy]

Pretty sure he was just saying what works for him, just like you and I are doing. It's up to the reader to be responsible, research methods and find what will work best for them.

Different dogs and different handlers utilize different techniques. Deal with it.

sure thing drama queen

Oh, so we can post what we like and no one is allowed to pass judgement? Well knock me down with a feather, I thought this was chaz and we were allowed to share our opinions?

And funny how if certain other posters (mentioning no names) post about their training methods they certainly have lots of people not 'dealing with it' and sharing their views on their methods and being quite dramatic about it...

I think if you're going to post potentially harmful training methods you need to be careful and accept some responsibility for what seeds you plant in readers heads. And by readers I mean the 100s that visit the board, lurk, etc etc. not just the OP.

So shoot me.

 

[meepitsmeagan]

You basically explained life with Harlow right here. We go through recall training with her about once every two months for a week. RECALL BOOTCAMP. I completely agree with everything that Sara said, but I will point out some additional stuff as well.

GET HIM BACK ON A LONG LINE NOW. The longer he gets away with blowing you off, the more self reinforcement he's getting. I know it's awesome to let him to offleash hikes, but he's not ready for them yet.

Play recall games alone as well. Have fabulous rewards. Have them on a long line. Call him, if he comes, reward heavily then ask for a trick or two to make coming back to you even more fun. If sniffing is super high value to him, use that as a reward! After he stays with you, have your release word be "Go sniff!" IF HE IGNORES YOU REEL HIM IN ASAP. By letting him continue to sniff, you are indirectly rewarding him. Once back, I personally reward and do happy dumb stuff every.single.time. You always want to be the food lady and be more awesome that the rabbit poop.

Teach an emergency recall (my squirrel yell to Rider). There is a great resource for that in the training stickies.

I know it sucks, but recall bootcamp is a pretty good thing once it's over.

 

[Dizzy]

this is one of those times I have zero trouble giving a correction my dogs will remember.

Then they get a correction to remember.

And actually reading this back...... You're telling me to deal with it?? You might all have met one another and know how each other operates, but bear in mind that others will be reading this and making their own interpretations and they haven't got a CLUE what you do or how you do it, and that certainly doesn't give anything away except it sound extreme.

I've never googled and researched 'giving a correction to remember' but I'm kind of forming a picture in my head what a lurker might be thinking of trying, or maybe not, maybe it's worse....

So.... Perhaps think about whether you'd like someone to try and interpret your methods from that post?? Research and google and whatever.

Sorry to derail OP, but if anyone else reads this now at least they have a point to jump off on their balanced research and a bit of a 'health warning'. As we call them!

 

[release the hounds]

I am fairly certain that if someone does 6 months of foundation work daily with their dog doing everything mentioned in other posts and gives their dog one hard correction on a long line from 20 feet away their dog will not be harmed, scared, ****ed up or any other number of adjectives you'd like to use. I'll gladly take that responsibility.

 

[Linds]

I think if someone is going to go helicopter or fry their dog just because RTH (who I've never met) said that this is one of the few times he will, for his dogs, give a correction to remember, then I can't imagine what they would do reading most of the other things posted on chaz.

I'm sorry, but in a thread asking for opinions, ideas and experiences you can't expect everyone to reply in a way that assumes their is a lurker out there that's going to be so lacking in higher brain function they go harm their dog just because RTH said one little thing.

If we're going with that then that same person is going to make their dogs stomach explode with high value food rewards based off of Sara's post.

There are so many ways to take so many things wrong on this forum (and the internet as a whole) that I just think it's incredibly silly and really unhelpful to the majority of people to constantly be tailoring your answers with the assumption that people who need the safety warning of "Do not iron while wearing" are reading this.

As far as the thread topic, I think a lot of good advice has been given!

My only addition is that I had great success doing my recall as a nose to hand touch rather than a more ambiguous "Hey come over to me!" It kept my criteria much more concise, my standards higher and the ability to really work on it anywhere because it could mean nose touch from three inches away to 30 yards away.

 

[Elrohwen]

GET HIM BACK ON A LONG LINE NOW. The longer he gets away with blowing you off, the more self reinforcement he's getting. I know it's awesome to let him to offleash hikes, but he's not ready for them yet.

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear about this. He's been on a long line since he started blowing me off at 9 months. Very occasionally he's allowed to drag it (if he has already proven himself to be very focused and engaged that day), but he's always on it. He's been on it for 6 months now and I haven't seen any improvement. Every time he blows me off on the long line he is reeled in.

Play recall games alone as well. Have fabulous rewards. Have them on a long line. Call him, if he comes, reward heavily then ask for a trick or two to make coming back to you even more fun. If sniffing is super high value to him, use that as a reward! After he stays with you, have your release word be "Go sniff!" IF HE IGNORES YOU REEL HIM IN ASAP. By letting him continue to sniff, you are indirectly rewarding him. Once back, I personally reward and do happy dumb stuff every.single.time. You always want to be the food lady and be more awesome that the rabbit poop.

We practice this every day, since we walk through our 9 acre property to get to walking trails. We play games, he gets super ridiculous rewards every single time (a whole handful of meatballs, or cheese), and I routinely use a "go sniff" cue as a reward (which has helped his focus in obedience class dramatically, but not his recall).

I'm so frustrated because what you described is exactly what I do with him every day, and in 6 months he hasn't gotten a bit better. All of the typical ways to improve recall are things I'm doing consistently, and his focus/recall will improve that day, but I'm not seeing any long term improvement.

I am fairly certain that if someone does 6 months of foundation work daily with their dog doing everything mentioned in other posts and gives their dog one hard correction on a long line from 20 feet away their dog will not be harmed, scared, ****ed up or any other number of adjectives you'd like to use. I'll gladly take that responsibility.

I could jerk him off of his feet and drag him 5ft and he honestly wouldn't care one bit. lol He's very handler hard (especially for a spaniel). I've seen him hit the end of the line at full speed, get knocked over, and get right back up without a blink. Leash corrections don't phase him. The only thing I've ever found to phase him is a spray bottle. An ecollar probably would, but it's not something I have the knowledge or skill to use, so I don't plan on trying it. So no, it wouldn't scare him or ruin him. I'm also not sure it would help, but that's because of his personality. I don't like corrections, and I don't ever want to use them, but for this dog they're not particularly useful anyway.

 

[SaraB]

My only addition is that I had great success doing my recall as a nose to hand touch rather than a more ambiguous "Hey come over to me!" It kept my criteria much more concise, my standards higher and the ability to really work on it anywhere because it could mean nose touch from three inches away to 30 yards away.

Oh! Nose-touch, totally forgot that. Yup, crystal clear criteria really does help!

 

[Elrohwen]

Oh! Nose-touch, totally forgot that. Yup, crystal clear criteria really does help!

He has a really good nose touch and it works as a recall in the house and outside *if* he's already paying attention. I guess my problem is more how to get his attention when he's sniffing things (which is 90% of the time). In that situation he's not any more responsive to the touch cue vs his name or "come". If he's already focused on me and aware of me outside, he'll respond to either.

It's like he loooves to recall if he's already paying attention, but if he's in his own world, he's just gone. I can't get through to him. So I can call him back a million times when I know he'll be successful (which we practice often), but the one time I call him when his nose is to the ground, he's going to completely ignore me, or look at me and then blow me off (or maybe he'll blow me off 50% of the time if I can get him to look at me). I am just not higher value than sniffing things. Or he really can't hear me when he's so engrossed in sniffing.

 

[SaraB]

He has a really good nose touch and it works as a recall in the house and outside *if* he's already paying attention. I guess my problem is more how to get his attention when he's sniffing things (which is 90% of the time). In that situation he's not any more responsive to the touch cue vs his name or "come". If he's already focused on me and aware of me outside, he'll respond to either.

Have you tried to reward him just for refocusing on you without prompt? Like if he checks in, do you reward him? That's something I've always done with puppies/new dogs. If they check in, huge praise and reward then give them the "all-done" cue and send them back out. I don't do anything to prompt it just be observant for when they choose to focus.

I'm thinking if you can increase your value as a handler it might help him pay a little closer attention and be more intuned to you all of the time.

 

[SaraB]

If he ignores the recall I would reel in Immediately. Do not repeat, do not try other ways of getting him to come. If ignoring you means he even gets a few extra seconds of sniffing time he may think it's worth it.

And this. So much this. There are no second chances, there are no pauses to see if they will respond. If they don't, they get reeled in and either have to stay close (tighten up on the longline) or get put away.

 

[Elrohwen]

Have you tried to reward him just for refocusing on you without prompt? Like if he checks in, do you reward him? That's something I've always done with puppies/new dogs. If they check in, huge praise and reward then give them the "all-done" cue and send them back out. I don't do anything to prompt it just be observant for when they choose to focus.

I'm thinking if you can increase your value as a handler it might help him pay a little closer attention and be more intuned to you all of the time.

Yep, I do that all the time. During any walk or any activity really (classes, going to a store) he gets heavily rewarded every time he focuses on me on his own. He's super impulsive, so the entire time I've had him I've tried really hard to reward him for making the right choice on his own, vs cueing it. It's worked really really well in obedience class to reward for a voluntary check in, work a little, then releasing him to sniff, and he's able to focus much more than he was before. Outside though, it only works if he's on a short leash. I will reel him in close to my side and keep him there until he makes eye contact, then he gets a treat or a release to go sniff. He's much better at focusing on me on walks now and doesn't spend the whole time at the end of the lead sniffing everything. On a long line and with recalls, nothing has changed. I think I need to use the same technique and reel him in on the long line, then keep him there until he makes eye contact and focuses. I honestly never thought to use the same thing on the long line.

On both long line and short leash, if he hits the end I will stop and wait for him to look back at me, or even come closer to me. Both are rewarded with treats, sniffing, or more walking. His rate of hitting the end of the long line doesn't seem to have changed with this technique. He'll gladly look back and refocus on me, and then charge out to the end to get whatever he wanted to get.

I completely agree that my value as a handler needs to be higher. Sometimes I think I must be a horrible trainer, but then other days I think he's just a really tough dog. He has more drive than I ever expected, and a lot of it is focused on hunting and prey, not on me. He's honestly super sweet and fairly biddable most of the time, but when he's tuned me out, he's really tuned me out. When he's engaged and focused, he's fantastic. When he's good, he's the most flashy dog in our obedience and agility classes. When he's bad, he's the worst dog there by far. lol

 

[SaraB]

I completely agree that my value as a handler needs to be higher. Sometimes I think I must be a horrible trainer, but then other days I think he's just a really tough dog. He has more drive than I ever expected, and a lot of it is focused on hunting and prey, not on me. He's honestly super sweet and fairly biddable most of the time, but when he's tuned me out, he's really tuned me out. When he's engaged and focused, he's fantastic.

Honestly, you are doing everything right you are just in a crappy training phase. Keep chugging away, one day that sporting dog will grow a brain and be wonderful. Until then try to focus on the wonderful things he does and set him for success as much as you can.

 

[Linds]

I'm telling you, boy dogs. They make you want to strangle them as often as they want to make you hug them. Usually at the same time.

The brain will come back, I promise!

 

[Elrohwen]

Honestly, you are doing everything right you are just in a crappy training phase. Keep chugging away, one day that sporting dog will grow a brain and be wonderful. Until then try to focus on the wonderful things he does and set him for success as much as you can.

Kind of good and bad to hear that I'm doing the right things. Haha. He's the sweetest dog and while he can be really frustrating and easily get over aroused and tune me out, when he's engaged and focused he's so flashy and awesome. The only reason we have any points in conformation is because he's a dog who goes into every environment with a "look at me, I'm the bomb" attitude and people just notice him. He's caused me so much frustration at times, but then blown me away with his ability to perform and be a partner.

He's definitely making me a better trainer. My previous, limited, training experience has been with lower drive "good" dogs who just generally want to please. He wants to please, but you can lose his focus in a nanosecond and spend all night getting it back if he thinks there's something he'd rather be doing.

 

[Elrohwen]

I'm telling you, boy dogs. They make you want to strangle them as often as they want to make you hug them. Usually at the same time.

The brain will come back, I promise!

Thanks! I sure hope so. Very occasionally I see glimmers of maturity lately.

Now I completely understand why the woman with some of the most titles on Welshies (in agility and obedience) has had all girls. The boys are nut jobs. He's seriously the most cuddly and sweet dog on the planet though, with the most bombproof temperament, so I think I'll keep him.

 

[Maxy24]

I know with Tucker if I say his name or a command to get attention he often ignores me (especially if he's thinking about reacting to another dog or something) but if I make a clicky noise with my mouth he snaps to attention (He has been previously taught to look at me when I make that noise...but he doesn't ignore it like other commands). I do think they have an easier time blocking out our voices than they do unique sharp sounds. With all of my future dogs I'm going to teach that mouth click is a cue to look at me, then I can give further instructions (like "come"). So maybe something like that. Or I suppose the sounds of the whistle would be right to grab his attention too.

 

[Elrohwen]

Or I suppose the sounds of the whistle would be right to grab his attention too.

That's my hope! He's extremely well conditioned to a clicker, more so than me saying "yes" (though they mean the same thing) so I hope the whistle will function in the same way.

 

[meepitsmeagan]

... I feel sorry for everyone who has to go through boy puberty.

Have you thought about using a rabbit tug or something as a reward? OR OR OR!!! A FLIRT POLE?! Play off that prey drive/chase?

 

[Sit Stay]

I can relate! Quinn is very naturally people oriented, doesn't like to stray too far which is wonderful, but we have still had some phases in training where she did not like to recall. Same thing as Watson - when her attention was already on me she loved to recall, even if she was on the run, but if he head was down and she was really into something I couldn't get her attention.

I broke it into two steps.

I first ended up teaching her to respond to her name. "Quinn!" meant "look here!". It didn't mean anything more than that. It didn't mean she had to leave what she was doing. Sometimes it meant awesome things. For example - "Quinn!" = pay attention, I am trying to give you table scraps, "Quinn!" - Look at me, I'm pointing at a bird to chase. Of course I used lots of click-treat to condition it, but nothing keeps her as sharp to her name as me using it in an unexpected (to her) and fun way - such as using it to get her attention to point out a bird or a frog to chase, or a good place to hunt for chipmunks, or to alert her to take another trail on a hike.

The "Come!" command she was already familiar with and enjoyed, AFTER her attention is already on me.

She recalls much better now to "Quinn!" then "Come!" a moment after, than when I would call "Come!" and expect her to both look up from what was distracting her and then come running. She has brain farts occasionally, but I've had way more success since breaking it down into two stages.