Trouble with Recalls

[Elrohwen]

Watson and I are having a love hate relationship with recalls. Basically, I feel like I did everything "right" to instill a good recall when he was a puppy (and continue to do these things), but he still has a crappy recall when it counts. I'm pretty much at a loss for what to do next.

First the love part.
- He thinks formal recalls in obedience class are the most fun game EVAR. He comes like he was shot out of a cannon.
- He loves to play recall games in our field. My husband and I will take turns calling him back and forth across the field, running to different spots and hiding, etc. He's super enthusiastic. We try to play this game as much as we can and it's a great way to wear him out.
- On a 6ft leash during walks, he'll almost always whip his head around when I call his name, even if he's sniffing or interested in something else.
- From 2 to 9 months, he was exclusively off leash on our property and really good. We did tons of calling him back, jackpotting with treats, then letting him run on. This is the point I'd like to get back to. After we lost it at 9 months I assumed it was a teenager thing and if we managed him with a long line and practiced a ton, his recall would return. It's been 6 months and it hasn't.


Now the hate.
- On our property, I have a horrible success rate at calling his name and getting any attention from him if he's sniffing, even on a long line. Not actually chasing an animal, or even tracking a recent trail, but just sniffing around to see what's new since yesterday. Sometimes he'll look around, and then go back to sniffing. I don't let him ignore me and will reel him in if necessary (after trying to run away, make crazy noises, etc), but reeling him in doesn't teach him to recall.
- He's run away a couple times and while he doesn't run for the sake of running, he only comes back when he's done hunting whatever he was hunting, not when we call.
- If I call him and take off running in the other direction, or hide behind something, he sometimes comes after me, sometimes ignores me. If we play a ton of these games one day, his attention on me is better for that day (though I still wouldn't trust him off leash), but it never seems to carry over to the next day and I don't see progress overall. It's like starting fresh every day.


What am I doing wrong? I feel like I did everything everyone recommends to train a recall, and all I have is a dog who only recalls as a game or in set up situations, but not in real life. I hoped he would grow out of this independent phase and get his great recall back, but so far it hasn't happened.

My only idea right now is to buy a hunting whistle and re-train the recall with that. I think a sharp whistle might get through to him better when he's sniffing than me chattering away and calling his name.

I honestly don't expect him to ever have 100% recall off of a running animal or anything. It would just be really awesome to have him off leash on our property like we could when he was young, and not worry that he's going to blow us off when we call and make us chase him across 10 acres. Tips? Tricks? What am I missing?

 

[Dizzy]

My handy tip is... Use a whistle

Fred comes to 'come' ok. But we also have a whistle that is charged. We began by tooting and treating, similar to a clicker. Then we moved about the house, tooting and treating.

Then we would go outside etc etc etc.

The thing is, we seriously reward for whistle recall. He gets a handful of treats, or super things like his dinner!!! Or meat, cheese etc etc.

And we continue to charge the whistle with SUPER scrum my goodness. And we don't use it unless totally necessary. Or try not to

Seems to work, and Fred ranges for and searches for bunny rabbits!

Eta, one of the things our trainer commented on was how your voice pitch, tone etc can vary widely, yet a whistle never changes and is a stable sound they can hear far and wide and is unmistakable. Couple that with HUGE reward and keep practicing.

 

[Elrohwen]

My handy tip is... Use a whistle

So you actually think that will help? Yay! I wasn't sure if it was just wishful thinking on my part. I'll definitely try it.

Fred comes to 'come' ok. But we also have a whistle that is charged. We began by tooting and treating, similar to a clicker. Then we moved about the house, tooting and treating.

Then we would go outside etc etc etc.

The thing is, we seriously reward for whistle recall. He gets a handful of treats, or super things like his dinner!!! Or meat, cheese etc etc.

That was basically how I planned to train it when I can get my hands on a whistle. Right now he gets a handful of meatballs for responding to my recall cue outside, but it doesn't seem to be enough to get a response most days. I feel like his brain just tunes everything out when he's sniffing and he can't even hear me, which is why I have hope for the whistle. Besides being loud, it's also a super clear signal that I can really charge up - I think our talking all blurs together when they're not really interested in paying attention and "come" sounds like everything else.

 

[SaraB]

Here's what I do with outdoor recalls (based on training 5 dogs, two of which were great danes, on several mile off-leash hikes through woods/fields, etc).

-Use a longline at first

-Highest value reward you can possibly have for that dog. I like using toy rewards, but if the dog isn't toy-driven, HIGH value treats that they only get during recall training outside.

-Reward for a minimum of 30 seconds for each recall. If you are using food rewards, reward at your side and then take a step away, reward again. Like agility flat work you are teaching your dog to stay with you and giving them a fun game to play at the end of the recall.

-Recall, reward a ton and then use a release word (not your stay release word but something to tell your dog to go away) to send your dog back out to what they were doing. If your dog has access to whatever is fun and distracting, it won't be so fun and distracting. Don't practice too many too close together. On an hour long hike, I may do 5 recalls the entire time. I want it to be a special fun game for my dog, not something I drill to death.

-ONLY call your dog when you know they are going to come. A lot of people push their luck with their recalls to early and the dog figures out that they don't need to listen. If your dog is sniffing or tracking something, wait until they are done and they lift their head before calling them.

-If you call your dog and they don't listen, DO NOT call them again or run away or beg them to come to you. Just go get them! It's a one chance game, not come to me whenever you feel like it.

-Start over training with a new word/whistle if your old one is ruined.

Hope that helps!

 

[Dizzy]

Eta, one of the things our trainer commented on was how your voice pitch, tone etc can vary widely, yet a whistle never changes and is a stable sound they can hear far and wide and is unmistakable. Couple that with HUGE reward and keep practicing.

- I think our talking all blurs together when they're not really interested in paying attention and "come" sounds like everything else.

You read my mind see

 

[Elrohwen]

Sara, thanks for the tips. I want to say that I already do most of that stuff, but it's highly possible that I'm not good enough or consistent enough with it. I guess when does all the training turn into a dog who is actually good off leash? I've been working on this every day for over a year and he's only gotten less reliable with age. I keep training, and I don't seem to make any progress because he still only comes if I call when I already know he's going to succeed, which is a small percentage of the time. If anything even slightly interesting is happening, he's not going to come and all the successful practices don't seem to change that.

I'm going to implement a new recall cue (a whistle), and stop begging him to come, because I definitely do that. One recall, and if he doesn't come, I will go get him and put him on a short leash for our walk - no more freedom to run around sniffing things.

 

[Dizzy]

Sara, thanks for the tips. I want to say that I already do most of that stuff, but it's highly possible that I'm not good enough or consistent enough with it. I guess when does all the training turn into a dog who is actually good off leash? I've been working on this every day for over a year and he's only gotten less reliable with age. I keep training, and I don't seem to make any progress because he still only comes if I call when I already know he's going to succeed, which is a small percentage of the time. If anything even slightly interesting is happening, he's not going to come.

I'm going to implement a new recall cue (a whistle), and stop begging him to come, because I definitely do that. One recall, and if he doesn't come, I will go get him and put him on a short leash for our walk - no more freedom to run around sniffing things.

One thing I learnt from bodhi is don't just recall at the end of the walk though. She worked out I would call her to finish the fun and stopped coming to me. I started calling her randomly, putting her on lead and walking a few mins then letting her off, or calling her and asking her to wait then releasing. That helped so much.

Sometimes the release is as much of a reward as the treat!!!

We also don't play around with recall, if dog doesn't come we don't keep shouting. I know for a fact he can hear me, so no point repeating and getting louder!! And I never chase him to get him back. That's a game we do not want to play!!!

 

[release the hounds]

this is one of those times I have zero trouble giving a correction my dogs will remember.

My puppies or new dog is never off leash, always a drag line. I do all the imprinting and things like mentioned above. I do the reel in when I have to and don't make any deal out of it at all. all rewards, all praise, all fun and games.

and then I set them up to fail. I sprinkle food in the grass, let them get totally engrossed in something and I have ignore them totally till I know they have clue I'm even around and I give them a recall command loud enough so they can hear it and give them a second. Then they get a correction to remember.

Pretty much everything else I let slide. Don't sit, fine we'll do it again with no reward, sit instead of down, fine, let's do it again. go around the jump rather than over, ok, do it again. Blow off my recall? you won't forget what come means ever again at least that's my plan.

The rest of the stuff is fluff, i can live with that, but a recall, I definitely use positive punishment at some point and I'm not shy about it when I need it and it's over.

 

[Elrohwen]

One thing I learnt from bodhi is don't just recall at the end of the walk though. She worked out I would call her to finish the fun and stopped coming to me. I started calling her randomly, putting her on lead and walking a few mins then letting her off, or calling her and asking her to wait then releasing. That helped so much.

Sometimes the release is as much of a reward as the treat!!!

We do that constantly and it doesn't seem to help :-( I call, he comes back and gets a handful of delicious treats and lots of praise and cuddles, then gets released back to do whatever he was doing, but his reliability is still crap.

We also don't play around with recall, if dog doesn't come we don't keep shouting. I know for a fact he can hear me, so no point repeating and getting louder!! And I never chase him to get him back. That's a game we do not want to play!!!

So what do you do, just wait him out? I get really nervous when he's out of sight. Our property is surrounded by a farm, a public walking trail, and our neighbors' yards and woods, so the chances he'd get on a road or anything are slim. Still, the time he ran off for 20min I nearly had a heart attack. He ended up coming back on his own and I found him in our garage, freaking out because he couldn't find me or my husband. Stupid dog. You're the one who ran away, not me.

The times we've "chased" him haven't really been chasing, since we lost sight of him in the woods pretty quickly and he didn't even know we were back there. Haha. This has only happened less than a handful of times, because after it happened once or twice I became super cautious. I blame the 20min running away incident recently on my husband, who decided to just let him drag the long line because he thought it would be fine, and thought he could catch him.

 

[Elrohwen]

The rest of the stuff is fluff, i can live with that, but a recall, I definitely use positive punishment at some point and I'm not shy about it when I need it and it's over.

Can I ask what you do for punishment? I have wondered if the only way I'll get reliability is with an ecollar. I can't think of any other correction he would even be phased by.

 

[Maxy24]

If he ignores the recall I would reel in Immediately. Do not repeat, do not try other ways of getting him to come. If ignoring you means he even gets a few extra seconds of sniffing time he may think it's worth it.

 

[Elrohwen]

If he ignores the recall I would reel in Immediately. Do not repeat, do not try other ways of getting him to come. If ignoring you means he even gets a few extra seconds of sniffing time he may think it's worth it.

Yes, very good point. I think I let him get away with sniffing too much.

Do you reward on the reel in? Just praise? I certainly don't make it negative, but I have a hard time rewarding him for coming to me if I had to reel him in.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't let him off places where I worry if he chooses to ignore me. If I'm worried for his safety I certainly don't let him off.

But I'm confident enough now that he gets to run free often enough but I don't sit on my laurels, I'm constantly scanning the area. I don't have to worry with bodhi as she's very good. Fred's nature is to sweep wide and far.

I personally let him off lead from puppy and have constantly reinforced recall without long lines. However, I would use a long lead if I wanted to exercise him in an area I wasn't sure of.

And I certainly don't punish.... Ecollars are banned in Wales for one. And two.... Never found it necessary.

 

[Maxy24]

I will praise when I reel in but not treat. However I will usually recall again within a minute when I KNOW he will listen (hasn't gotten into anything yet) and will reward him with food for coming then.

 

[SaraB]

Sara, thanks for the tips. I want to say that I already do most of that stuff, but it's highly possible that I'm not good enough or consistent enough with it. I guess when does all the training turn into a dog who is actually good off leash? I've been working on this every day for over a year and he's only gotten less reliable with age. I keep training, and I don't seem to make any progress because he still only comes if I call when I already know he's going to succeed, which is a small percentage of the time. If anything even slightly interesting is happening, he's not going to come and all the successful practices don't seem to change that.

I'm going to implement a new recall cue (a whistle), and stop begging him to come, because I definitely do that. One recall, and if he doesn't come, I will go get him and put him on a short leash for our walk - no more freedom to run around sniffing things.

Age can be a huge factor, if he's an adolescent you are probably in a crappy phase right now. I routinely do these things even though I am able to call my dogs off of chasing deer, pheasants and rabbits. Very rarely, if ever, do I call them and then not reward. I still practice recalls periodically on walks and my dogs think it's a blast.

I would say my dogs are trained, but it's a life-long thing. This behavior needs a ton of maintence.

 

[Elrohwen]

Age can be a huge factor, if he's an adolescent you are probably in a crappy phase right now. I routinely do these things even though I am able to call my dogs off of chasing deer, pheasants and rabbits. Very rarely, if ever, do I call them and then not reward. I still practice recalls periodically on walks and my dogs think it's a blast.

I would say my dogs are trained, but it's a life-long thing. This behavior needs a ton of maintence.

He's 15 months and at 9 months lost his reliable recall/stay close behavior. I never took it for granted and rewarded heavily, but one day he decided that he was no longer interested in coming back outside much of the time. So yeah, age is a big factor. I guess he's slow to mature in general, so I should try not to freak out until he's 2 or 3, but it's hard. After 6 months of no progression despite trying hard to do the right things, I'm getting frustrated and wondering if he'll always have to be on a long line.

 

[release the hounds]

I don't use anything but a long line and it isn't a little tug.

I don't do anything when I reel in, I don't even acknowledge the dog or that i'm doing anything. There is no praise, no eye contact nothing. If I'm doing the work they aren't getting any response from me at all.

early on, I don't do it ever because I never call them unless I know they are going to come.

Once they're to a point I feel they can hear me and are choosing not to come, I reel in, no emotion, no nothing and I put them away.

It's amazing how well just ending things can work. Once I feel I've done that enough, that's when I set them up to fail. It's about the ONLY thing i use a physical correction for in training basic ob.

It isn't something I reach for right away, there is a foundation, a good one put down before anything else happens. and it's put down with a lot of effort and intention.

I don't care if ecollars are banned in wales, I don't care if someone has never found it necessary to punish. I'm fairly confident i can train a dog to recall very reliably without punishment too, but I don't wait for my fail point to be when I least expect it. Dogs most certainly learn by punishment. And when it's clear, uncommon, and with purpose, it becomes that much more powerful

 

[Dizzy]

Great for you but advocating that on a public forum for joe public to read and try to replicate then it's on your hands when they f*** up and scar their dog for life.

Sorry, but advocating that sort of method for someone to recreate at home is irresponsible in my book.

And that is REGARDLESS of whether I agree with it or not... That's a moot point.

But I imagine you don't care about that either cos out of sight, is out of mind.

 

[SaraB]

Great for you but advocating that on a public forum for joe public to read and try to replicate then it's on your hands when they f*** up and scar their dog for life.

Sorry, but advocating that sort of method for someone to recreate at home is irresponsible in my book.

And that is REGARDLESS of whether I agree with it or not... That's a moot point.

But I imagine you don't care about that either cos out of sight, is out of mind.

Pretty sure he was just saying what works for him, just like you and I are doing. It's up to the reader to be responsible, research methods and find what will work best for them.

Different dogs and different handlers utilize different techniques. Deal with it.

 

[release the hounds]

sure thing drama queen