This is awful, please help
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I never said anything about an animals intelligence, I know a pig is smarter but they do not bond with humans as completely as dogs. You might argue parrots bond more tightly but I think that the dog is truly "man's bestfriend". In any event eating flesh of animals of any intelligence is wrong IMHO.
DanL. I still think there are inherent wrongs and rights. If there is no victim, then you can debate "Rightness" but when there are victims (dog, pigs, horses...etc) I think you can say for certain whether something is wrong or right.
I don't think it is just about opinions, it is more about growth and advancement of culture. Eventually we will look back at the flesh of other animals as be wrong and barbaric.....we as a culture just haven't reached that level.....yet. Raising animals for food is also not enviromental wise or economically frugal.
DanL. I still think there are inherent wrongs and rights. If there is no victim, then you can debate "Rightness" but when there are victims (dog, pigs, horses...etc) I think you can say for certain whether something is wrong or right.
I don't think it is just about opinions, it is more about growth and advancement of culture. Eventually we will look back at the flesh of other animals as be wrong and barbaric.....we as a culture just haven't reached that level.....yet. Raising animals for food is also not enviromental wise or economically frugal.
It is all in how you were raised and in part you own attitude. I'm half asian and have eaten things that would make most people cringe 
In my mind if it's meat I don't really care to much about the animal or what body part it is more then likely I'm going to eat it.
Amstaffer we do have a right to a degree to judge other cultures but when it comes to canabilism or infanticide those are crimes against humans our own species. And as much as dogs are they are still not human.
I will state again as long as a creature treat it well up to the hour of it's death and it is not endangered I'm not going to protest the slaughter of that animal for food. This is why I love small farms where animals are raised by people who care about them and then killed humanely.
Unfortunately thats not that common in the U.S and I'm very well aware that the animals in the Phillipines are probably not going to be very well treated either and that is something to protest.
In my mind if it's meat I don't really care to much about the animal or what body part it is more then likely I'm going to eat it. Amstaffer we do have a right to a degree to judge other cultures but when it comes to canabilism or infanticide those are crimes against humans our own species. And as much as dogs are they are still not human.
I will state again as long as a creature treat it well up to the hour of it's death and it is not endangered I'm not going to protest the slaughter of that animal for food. This is why I love small farms where animals are raised by people who care about them and then killed humanely.
Unfortunately thats not that common in the U.S and I'm very well aware that the animals in the Phillipines are probably not going to be very well treated either and that is something to protest.
Thats the part of the arguement where we disconnect, why is doing something wrong to animal who has emotions and feels pain based on their DNA structure or Chromosomes ok? I think as a species we are so arrogant. We think our Human"ism" makes us in awhole superior category. This has allowed us to abuse other species and feel good about it. These ideas of superiority have been the same philosphies that have allowed us to abuse other humans.
We've had enough vegan/carnivore debates here. Once again there is no right or wrong there. You can give your statements that raising animals for consumption isn't environmentally sound or frugal and I can give you statements right back on why you are wrong, and you won't believe me, and I won't believe you, so lets not go down that path OK?
I respect your choices and opinions, and I feel you should do the same, whether it's someone half a world away who eats a dog, or someone in your neighborhood who wants to grill up some steaks, or me when I cook up some venison my brother shot.
I respect your choices and opinions, and I feel you should do the same, whether it's someone half a world away who eats a dog, or someone in your neighborhood who wants to grill up some steaks, or me when I cook up some venison my brother shot.
The issue for me is the cruelty part of it. If they were to humanely kill the animal that wouldn't be any worse then what we do to our livestock in this country. I've ready articles on how in countries in Asia that they torture the animal (dog) before killing them. That is what disturbs me about the whole thing.
If I lived in a country that was as poor as many of the Asian countries are, and most mongrel dogs were considered livestock? Then yes I would eat it. Yes, I would feed it to my children. Yes, I would even eat human if the circumstances called for it...
Do I see anything wrong with it? No.
My beliefs and systems are different from a lot of other people's. I've accepted that... and moved on. There are many topics where i agree to disagree.
Do I see anything wrong with it? No.
My beliefs and systems are different from a lot of other people's. I've accepted that... and moved on. There are many topics where i agree to disagree.
You can have whatever opinion you want but I believe that there are things that are inherently wrong and right. Murder of the innocent is wrong, Torture of the innocent is wrong; those statements are absolute in their truth.
I think too often we excuse certain things because its "part of someone's culture", as I said earlier I think that is BS and is an intellectual cop out because we don't wish to think about what is ultimately good or evil.
DanL.-- Raising livestock as enviromentally wise or economically furgal, I would love to see any sources you have that say raising cattle for mass consummation it good for the enviroment or finacially smart for feeding lots of people.
Why can't there be a right or wrong on eating the flesh of emotional, thinking creatures? We choose not to make that call because we are in love with the taste of meat and because it is a huge part of our culture and tradition. There are lots of things that have been thought of as ok in our culture through out time that was later determined as wrong (eg Slavery--all slavery not just American slavery).
Why can't we as society decide to take that next step up in our development and start to treat animals with the same respect we wish to be treated with?
I think too often we excuse certain things because its "part of someone's culture", as I said earlier I think that is BS and is an intellectual cop out because we don't wish to think about what is ultimately good or evil.
DanL.-- Raising livestock as enviromentally wise or economically furgal, I would love to see any sources you have that say raising cattle for mass consummation it good for the enviroment or finacially smart for feeding lots of people.
Why can't there be a right or wrong on eating the flesh of emotional, thinking creatures? We choose not to make that call because we are in love with the taste of meat and because it is a huge part of our culture and tradition. There are lots of things that have been thought of as ok in our culture through out time that was later determined as wrong (eg Slavery--all slavery not just American slavery).
Why can't we as society decide to take that next step up in our development and start to treat animals with the same respect we wish to be treated with?
There are things that can be thought of as inherently wrong and yes i agree torture of the innocent is one of them. In my mind cruelty without cause and the mistreatment of children in any circumstances are also inherently wrong. But as evolved as we think we are humans are still animals and part of a food chain. We can still be eaten and at the same time we are predators. We evolved to be able to eat meat as well as plants. There are scientific studies that argue that the reason we evolved is because certain primates started eating meat. Protein allows for more brain growth and babies wont develop properly without it. I have no issue with people who are vegetarian, but it is a luxury in many ways to be able to say that you will not eat certain foods. If your hungry enough you'll eat anything
I agree Gempress. The human is designed to process both meat and vegetable. The choice to be a vegetarian is not one of nature, but of one's own beliefs and feelings.
Amstaffer, here is a good article that supports some of my views. Please note that this is written by a doctor and that there is a bibliography that shows his sources.
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
Amstaffer, here is a good article that supports some of my views. Please note that this is written by a doctor and that there is a bibliography that shows his sources.
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
Anna84 --There is a big difference between being a predator and being a creature that warehouses other creatures in usually abusive (mentally and phsyically) conditions until we need to eat them. A Predator has nothing to do with its prey until they are ready to eat then kills it.
Since when are humans bound by nature? Do you think people eat meat because of nature or human choice? Its not nature for humans to circumcise our girls (yes girls...it horrible) in northwestern Africa....but its done as part of their culture. Culture and tradition can make us worse or better. Its our choice.
Gempress --The eating of animals (or people) is not cruel its what you do to them before you eat them.
Since when are humans bound by nature? Do you think people eat meat because of nature or human choice? Its not nature for humans to circumcise our girls (yes girls...it horrible) in northwestern Africa....but its done as part of their culture. Culture and tradition can make us worse or better. Its our choice.
Gempress --The eating of animals (or people) is not cruel its what you do to them before you eat them.
Unfortunately, the bulk of commercial livestock are not range fed, but stall fed. They do not ingest grasses and shrubs (like they should), but are fed an unnatural array of grains and soybeans. It is true that these foods could be fed to humans. The argument here, then, is not that eating meat depletes the Earth's resources, but that commercial farming methods do. Such methods also subject livestock to deplorable living conditions where infections, antibiotics, steroids and synthetic hormones are common. These all lead to an unhealthy animal and, by extension, an unhealthy food product.
This part is the reality of the meat industry in the industrial world atleast and it also supports my views.
Without question, commercially raised livestock live in deplorable conditions where sickness and suffering are common. Additionally, some prescription drugs are derived from animals (e.g., Premarin) in torturous ways. In America, at least, livestock animals are exempted from anti-cruelty laws and, typically, commercially raised livestock animals are slaughtered in ways that promote adrenaline release, which could have harmful effects on the people who eventually consume them. In countries like Korea, food animals such as dogs are killed in horrific ways, i.e., beaten to death with a club. Our recommendations for animal foods consumption most definitely do not endorse such practices. As noted in our discussion of myth #1, commercial farming of livestock results in an unhealthy food product, whether that product be meat, milk, butter, cream or eggs. Our ancestors did not consume such substandard foodstuffs, and neither should we.
This also supports my arguement.
I never said you had to be vegan, organically raised eggs and dairy products will supply all the requirements you need to survive a very healthy life.
This part is the reality of the meat industry in the industrial world atleast and it also supports my views.
Without question, commercially raised livestock live in deplorable conditions where sickness and suffering are common. Additionally, some prescription drugs are derived from animals (e.g., Premarin) in torturous ways. In America, at least, livestock animals are exempted from anti-cruelty laws and, typically, commercially raised livestock animals are slaughtered in ways that promote adrenaline release, which could have harmful effects on the people who eventually consume them. In countries like Korea, food animals such as dogs are killed in horrific ways, i.e., beaten to death with a club. Our recommendations for animal foods consumption most definitely do not endorse such practices. As noted in our discussion of myth #1, commercial farming of livestock results in an unhealthy food product, whether that product be meat, milk, butter, cream or eggs. Our ancestors did not consume such substandard foodstuffs, and neither should we.
This also supports my arguement.
I never said you had to be vegan, organically raised eggs and dairy products will supply all the requirements you need to survive a very healthy life.
Once again Amstaffer you are electing to impose YOUR beliefs as what is right. While we may think things such as female circumsicion to be cruel, it is not viewed as that in their culture. Why is it that male circumsicion is ok in most western cultures? Isn't that cruel too?
I hope you understand that I don't have anything against you or what you believe. Most of the time on other topics we agree on things. On this one, you keep expressing what you feel is right and wrong based on your culture, without giving creedence to what others may believe. I don't agree with female circumsicion or a lot of the other practices either, but I respect them as part of the culture of other countries and histories.
Edit- I just saw your reply about the article. What are your thoughts on the points he makes that do NOT support your stance? Nutritional issues, vitamin absorbtion, etc? It pretty much tells me that meat is part of our diet for physiological reasons and that you really can't have a truely balanced diet without it, even if you eat dairy and eggs.
I hope you understand that I don't have anything against you or what you believe. Most of the time on other topics we agree on things. On this one, you keep expressing what you feel is right and wrong based on your culture, without giving creedence to what others may believe. I don't agree with female circumsicion or a lot of the other practices either, but I respect them as part of the culture of other countries and histories.
Edit- I just saw your reply about the article. What are your thoughts on the points he makes that do NOT support your stance? Nutritional issues, vitamin absorbtion, etc? It pretty much tells me that meat is part of our diet for physiological reasons and that you really can't have a truely balanced diet without it, even if you eat dairy and eggs.
DanL--- I find it a joy to debate with you DanL because you are a scholar and a Gentleman. Some people on this board (in rare cases) can get heated and abrasive. We have beable to discuss and not get mad, I thank you for that.
You say I am imposing my beliefs on others, I am simply pointing out that their are absolutes in this world and its ok. You can say for certain that some things are inherently evil or good.
Male circumsicion is cruel but female circumsicion is without a doubt CRUEL and I could careless how the Macho Misogynist society there feels about it. I am not making my decisions about what is right an wrong based on my culture but rather on my internal moral compass. Has my culture inabled me to educate myself yes but otherwise it just me.
You say I am imposing my beliefs on others, I am simply pointing out that their are absolutes in this world and its ok. You can say for certain that some things are inherently evil or good.
Male circumsicion is cruel but female circumsicion is without a doubt CRUEL and I could careless how the Macho Misogynist society there feels about it. I am not making my decisions about what is right an wrong based on my culture but rather on my internal moral compass. Has my culture inabled me to educate myself yes but otherwise it just me.
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Not to get in between your guy's argument, but i just thought I should point out male and female circumsicions are very different. I mean different from a physical point not just from my opinion.
I don't really want to put the procedure up on here but go here: http://www.rotten.com/library/sex/circumcision/female/
About half way down it says it That's the only part I put this website up for, not the rest which is obviously against it.
I don't really want to put the procedure up on here but go here: http://www.rotten.com/library/sex/circumcision/female/
About half way down it says it
That's the only part I put this website up for, not the rest which is obviously against it.