This is awful, please help

joanne

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#1
I just got an email from Animals asia about how the Philippines are wanting to revoke laws that protect dogs in their country. At the moment it is illegal to eat dogs, but a new proposal is being pushed through that will allow dog farming and eating. If is really horrible how much they make these poor dogs suffer before they eat them also. Animals asia needs people to email them a letter to the city governor saying they are against the dog trade industry. They will then print out the emails and send them on to the philipines. Even better they have the address of the governer so you can send a letter straight to him. Please have a look at this link, and spare time for an email.
http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=3&menupos=8&lg=en
:(
 

DanL

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#2
I don't see how another countries customs should be held to what our standards are. We eat things here that other countries do not- cows and pigs for example. To them, dog is just another source of food, not a cuddly pet like they are for us. It's no more cruel or inhumane than our own practices of raising livestock for food purposes.
 

Dizzy

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#3
I have to say, however much I find this a horrid thing, my first thoughts were the same as DanL...

We eat cows (sacred in India) and pigs (not good to Jews - I think, bit rusty on religion), which would turn other countries stomachs..

The french often eat horse too..

:(
 

joanne

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#4
Actually I don't eat animals, but I see what you mean.
The difference here is the Phillipines has been happily going along with the dog trade being banned, and now they are going to make it legal again. But another point is that cows, sheep etc are herbivores, and they live reasonably happily together while being farmed. Dogs however are carnivores, this makes a major difference. Can you imagine how much they must suffer? I think cruelty should not be excused.
 

anna84

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#5
No cruelty should not be excused, But you also can't stand there and say

were so much better in the way we treat cows and pigs and other animals

here. I think you have a right to judge how people treat there food animals

but not what those animals are. I agree that there should be laws so the

animals are treated humanely and kept well but in the end people have a

right to eat what they want.
 

DanL

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#6
I don't understand how a dog, being a carnivore, would suffer any more than another animal used for livestock purposes. Can you explain what you mean?
 

Dizzy

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#7
I'd love to turn around and tell people not to eat dogs... but I don't know how I'd react if someone turned around and said you can't eat pigs, because I find it wrong....

It's a toughie...

And the way animals are treated right here (uk) and probably in the USA too is pretty nasty :(
 
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#8
DanL said:
I don't see how another countries customs should be held to what our standards are. We eat things here that other countries do not- cows and pigs for example. To them, dog is just another source of food, not a cuddly pet like they are for us. It's no more cruel or inhumane than our own practices of raising livestock for food purposes.

I agree, but it is sad that some one would eat a dog!:(
 

nedim

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#9
I totally agree with DanL. Yes its sad, but we eat the things other countries find to be sacred. Let Aia deal with it. The US has enough problems without having to intervene in what other countries eat.
 

Gempress

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#10
I agree with DanL too. We don't have the right to tell other countries what they can eat.
 

Saje

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#11
anna84 said:
were so much better in the way we treat cows and pigs and other animals
NOT true at all. It's horrible how we treat animals in the slaughter house and those on their way there. :(
 

EliNHunter

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#12
This thread could go on and on to the views. I, for one, saw a documentary about a Korean family that had their "pet" dog chained up outside. One minute it showed it frolicking and playing with their kids, the next minute the father cracked it over the head with a big stick so they could have it for dinner. The U.S. exports horses to France for meat consumption. China slaughters dogs -- skins them alive even -- for fur exports (back to the U.S.! Where do you think that cute little fur trim on the hood of your winter coat mainly comes from?). It's all just horrid, to me. But YES... I DO eat MEAT. And I am as much to blame in this country as others (or ourselves) in this country... :(
 

anna84

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#13
It's just a fact that how you were raised affects how you look upon certain animals. My mom grew up in an asian country she loves dogs now but it's not a common view among her relatives and friends she grew up with. I have some friends who view all animals as sacred and others who think the only thing good about a cow is its potential for steak. If your treating animals inhumanely however I do think that should be a crime. If your going to eat an animal you should make its death as easy as possible
 

yoko

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#14
the thing about the killing the dog i can relate to only it happened here in the USA! one of my friends families rasies chickens they're pets and they're loved to death. they all have names and get the best care. but at the end of each year the dad goes out and slaughters them and they eat them without a second thought. i don't know how anyone could do that x.x

online is a great place to find people who will back you up on almost all issues. but this is one of those times that maybe finding people more around that area would help you more.
 

Gustav

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#15
If I remember rightly we had a simular thread a while back???

I must applaud everyone for being so diplomatic with this rather sensitive issue!!! I do believe that the last time anything like this was discussed it did drop to the level of "Playground" lol!

And yes the thought is awful, I wouldn't want to eat dog any more than I would want to stick my head in the oven! But we have to respect other peoples views and vantage points. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that there is a distinct lack of grazing/pasture in the Phillipeans so maybe dog is the only sustainable source of meat for a country that would otherwise starve? Maybe they don't have the luxury of choice?! Or maybe we are just far too spoilt with our numerous sustainable food sources?!

And I live here in France and to be honest the horse eating population is very very very few!! Not everyone will pop down to the butchers for a lovely horse steak! In fact I don't know anyone who eats horse!! So you see, everyone can get the wrong end of the stick if they are misinformed! ;) :D
 

avenlee

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#16
It doesn't matter whatever anyone's feelings are on the subject. I don't think an emailed letter from us is going to matter much at all to the Asian Government.
 

Amstaffer

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#17
DanL said:
I don't see how another countries customs should be held to what our standards are. We eat things here that other countries do not- cows and pigs for example. To them, dog is just another source of food, not a cuddly pet like they are for us. It's no more cruel or inhumane than our own practices of raising livestock for food purposes.
First of all, in my humble opinion, eating the flesh of an animal is wrong. Eating the flesh of an animal that has made a bond with the human race like no other and so completely (the dog) is criminal IMHO. Dogs are much more emotionally aware and are more vulnerable to mental abuse most livestock. There is much more that goes into the "wrongness" of eating animals, it is the abuse of the animals during the time they are waiting to be slaughtered. Its not so much the eating but the abuse that is the evil.

Why can't we make judgements on other cultures and customs? We say that cannibalism is wrong (emotionally not that far off of eating dogs), we say infanticide is wrong but both of those are customs and part of other peoples cultures. There are tons of things people do as part of their culture that we consider wrong and make judgements. We cannot be afraid to ascertain what "right" is ultimately.

In this PC world we live in everyone is afraid to say this is better or that is bad....thats BS, I believe that somethings are wrong...period. In some cultures 40 year old men "marry" and have sex with 10 year old girls...That is wrong, I don't give a Dang what culture, reason or religion they use to support that.

It is my feeling that mankind will have a heavy price to pay one day because of our cruelty to the rest of nature.

Thank you for letting me rant.....I'll get off my soap box now.

PS The post about the Korean family who chained up their dog outside all the time and then ate it one day....being eaten was most likely a release from a terrible and lonely life for that poor dog.

There are a lot of really terrible things people do in this world. The eating of dogs is just a disgusting symbol and reminder of how screwed up many humans are. The United States is home to as cruel a people as anywhere, so please don't say I am picking on other cultures. I volunteer at a humane society and I see nearly everday what some Americans are capable of ....... very sad. :( :(
 

Dizzy

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#18
Sorry Amstaffer, I would just like to point something out that I feel is not valid in your statement.

I think that this topic is first and foremost going to be unresolvable as it comes down to peoples opinions and NOT facts.

But, your point about dogs being intelligent therefore eating is criminal ("Eating the flesh of an animal that has made a bond with the human race like no other and so completely (the dog) is criminal IMHO") doesn't sway the opinion as it has been proven pigs are infact, more intelligent than dogs.

Professor Stanley Curtis of Penn State University found that pigs play and excel at joystick-controlled video games. He observed that they are “capable of abstract representation” and “are able to hold an icon in the mind and remember it at a later date.” Professor Curtis says that “there is much more going on in terms of thinking and observing by these pigs than we would ever have guessed.” Pigs are much smarter than dogs, according to the research, and even did better at video games than some primates. Says Dr. Sarah Boysen, Curtis’ colleague, “[Pigs] are able to focus with an intensity I have never seen in a chimp.”

Pigs form complex social units and learn from one another in ways previously observed exclusively among primates. For example, pigs use clever ploys to try to outsmart each other. Pigs often learn how to follow others to food before snatching it away. Those who are tricked learn to change their behavior in order to reduce the number of times they are deceived. And Dr. Mike Mendyl notes that pigs can signal their competitive strength and “use this information to minimize overt aggression during disputes about social ranks,” just like many primates (including humans). He explains that “pigs can develop quite sophisticated social competitive behavior, similar to that seen in some primate species.”

Pigs communicate constantly with one another. More than 20 of their oinks, grunts, and squeals have been identified for different situations, from wooing their mates to expressing, “I’m hungry!”

Pigs have a very long memory. Dr. Curtis put a ball, a Frisbee, and a dumbbell in front of several pigs and was able to teach them to jump over, sit next to, or fetch any of the objects when asked to and they could distinguish between the objects three years later.

Scientists at the University of Illinois have learned that not only do pigs have temperature preferences, they also will learn through trial and error how to turn on the heat in a cold barn if given the chance and turn it off again when they are too warm.

Professor Donald Broom of Cambridge University Veterinary School says, “[Pigs] have the cognitive ability to be quite sophisticated. Even more so than dogs and certainly three-year-olds.”

Suzanne Held, who studies the cognitive abilities of farm animals at the University of Bristol’s Centre of Behavioural Biology, says that pigs are “really good at remembering where food is located, because in their natural environment food is patchily distributed and it pays to revisit profitable food patches.”

Newborn piglets learn to run to their mothers’ voices, and mother pigs sing to their young while nursing.

Pigs are actually very clean animals. If given sufficient space, pigs will be careful not to excrete near where they sleep or eat. Pigs don’t “sweat like pigs”; they are actually unable to sweat. Pigs like to bathe in water or mud to keep cool.
I just wanted to point this out, as I believe it is wrong for us to say eating dogs is wrong, when we treat animals that are just as intelligent just as badly.

I am a HUGE hypocrite, I eat meat. I would love to rear my own (I would never eat it, I would chicken out!!), but that's not life...

This isn't even a cruelty issue as yet, as this argement has nothing to do with the conditions the dogs are being kept in. Just moral issue. And as far as the morals go, if is wrong to eat dogs, it is wrong to eat pigs/fish (yes fish have been shown to have communities and social interactions) and MANY other creatures.

Scientists highlight fish 'intelligence'

Fish are socially intelligent creatures who do not deserve their reputation as the dim-wits of the animal kingdom, according to a group of leading scientists.

Scientists say fish do not deserve their "dim-witted" reputation
Rather than simply being instinct-driven, the group says fish are cunning, manipulative and even cultured.

The three experts from the universities of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Leeds said there had been huge changes in science's understanding of the psychological and mental abilities of fish in the last few years.

Writing in the journal Fish and Fisheries, biologists Calum Brown, Keven Laland and Jens Krause said fish were now seen as highly intelligent creatures.

They said: "Gone (or at least obsolete) is the image of fish as drudging and dim-witted pea-brains, driven largely by 'instinct',' with what little behavioural flexibility they possess being severely hampered by an infamous 'three-second memory'.

Behaviour patterns

"Now, fish are regarded as steeped in social intelligence, pursuing Machiavellian strategies of manipulation, punishment and reconciliation, exhibiting stable cultural traditions, and co-operating to inspect predators and catch food."

Recent research had shown that fish recognised individual "shoal mates", social prestige and even tracked relationships.

Scientists had also observed them using tools, building complex nests and exhibiting long-term memories.

The scientists added: "Although it may seem extraordinary to those comfortably used to pre-judging animal intelligence on the basis of brain volume, in some cognitive domains, fishes can even be favourably compared to non-human primates."

They said fish were the most ancient of the major vertebrate groups, giving them "ample time" to evolve complex, adaptable and diverse behaviour patterns that rivalled those of other vertebrates.

"These developments warrant a re-appraisal of the behavioural flexibility of fishes, and highlight the need for a deeper understanding of the learning processes that underpin the newly recognised behavioural and social sophistication of this taxon," said the scientists.




Info taken from:http://www.goveg.com/f-hiddenlivespigs_experts.asp

and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/3189941.stm
 

DanL

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#19
Amstaffer, I understand your view, but again, you are imposing your morals and values upon cultures who have different morals and values. What is wrong for us is not wrong for them, and there are many things that we do that we consider right that are considered wrong in other cultures. This is where I have to stand back and say yes, I think it's horrible that someone would eat a dog, but in their eyes, it's the same thing as a pig, goat, sheep, cow to us. As far as the bonding thing goes, do those cultures generally keep dogs as pets, in the house, sleeping in their beds, like we do? Or are they treated like livestock, with the occasional dog given special treatment like a child here might have a pet chicken or piglet? I'm sure that if you wanted to you could bond with a pig the same way, like Dizzy pointed out, pigs are more intelligent than dogs. So are horses. It's just not easy to have those animals in the house where you can sit on the couch with them.

This whole premise of this post is pitting culture against culture, and there is no way that it will ever be resolved.
 

bubbatd

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#20
I love meat... but could never eat cat/dog/horse. It's just the way I was brought up. But I agree... it's the different cultures. How many here have had squirrel, rabbit or snake ??
 

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