starting a Kennel !

[*blackrose]

as for Volka my CAO who was accused of being aggressive in other threads and was criticized by many...well he is 6 and half months old 110 lbs and over 28 inches at the withers..aggressive! today i took him to the park on empty stomach we stayed late and he played with other dogs , he was starving..as we are going towards the car he pulled towards a little 1 year old girl with her mom who seemed comfortable with the dog. the girl was in a baby rolling chair (whatever it is called)holding a cracker. Volka came close sniffing her face her cracker without touching it ( he was licking his lips so hungry) then he went down and sniffed her feet still did not touch her cracker. the girl hit him on the nose and talked to him baby talk and still he was so gentle. after few minutes the mom gave him a cracker he just gulped it instantly! now that's a killer dog!

Not going to even touch the breeding conversation, but I had to comment on this.

My dog Chloe can be taken into a vet clinic, have blood drawn, have an IV catheter placed, be given injections and basically have everything done to her under the sun and she is perfect. No problems. She holds still, shows no aggression, and besides some anxiety related behaviors is 100% a model patient.

This is also the dog that has bitten members of my family numerous times, tries to attack male visitors, and cannot be trusted around any guests due to her habit of eliciting attention and then biting.

Just because a dog doesn't show aggression in a certain context doesn't mean it isn't aggressive, nor does it mean it is a stable dog. I'm not saying your dog IS aggressive or IS unstable...just saying that aggression isn't generalized.

 

[Mina]

But all you talk about is size, you have never shown proof of any titles in your dogs lineage, or even a picture of said pup...

I understand the sentiment, ruffian, but the reality is that this a "friendly" open forum. Gilles is free to put forth his thoughts according to forum outlines. As such, I think it's a bit pretentious to think that he should be under some kind of obligation to "show proof" of anything, to anybody here. He is not asking for permission, just posting his thoughts on an open forum.

... as for Volka my CAO ... he is 6 and half months old 110 lbs and over 28 inches at the withers ...

First, I have to say that, that is a very impressive size for 6 1/2 month old puppy!!!

Secondly, as I've mentioned to you already, Gilles, Volka is just a baby. There is a very good chance that, come maturity, he will be a totally different dog from that with which you are now familiar - and this, regardless of your very best socializing, training and intentions ...

This does not mean that Volka will turn into a monster. However, puberty will metamorphose Volka into the adult which his genetics had pre-determined him to be. Having my own (wonderful) Russian guardian breed, I cannot overstate that simple fact; at this point, you cannot know what his eventual temperament will be.

Thirdly, I do hope you will, very carefully, consider some of the excellent advice already offered you in this thread, Gilles!

 

[gilles]

Not going to even touch the breeding conversation, but I had to comment on this.

My dog Chloe can be taken into a vet clinic, have blood drawn, have an IV catheter placed, be given injections and basically have everything done to her under the sun and she is perfect. No problems. She holds still, shows no aggression, and besides some anxiety related behaviors is 100% a model patient.

This is also the dog that has bitten members of my family numerous times, tries to attack male visitors, and cannot be trusted around any guests due to her habit of eliciting attention and then biting.

Just because a dog doesn't show aggression in a certain context doesn't mean it isn't aggressive, nor does it mean it is a stable dog. I'm not saying your dog IS aggressive or IS unstable...just saying that aggression isn't generalized.

i was just mentioning it because i was criticized in another thread... because my dog barked at a guy who was talking to me aggressively. well i took a CAO puppy coming from a fighting line taken away from his mom early and i put all my effort and so far he is doing great ! not bad for an inexperienced owner dont you think? most of the members who criticized me would not have the guts to take such a risk.

 

[Beanie]

I understand the sentiment, ruffian, but the reality is that this a "friendly" open forum. Gilles is free to put forth his thoughts according to forum outlines. As such, I think it's a bit pretentious to think that he should be under some kind of obligation to "show proof" of anything, to anybody here. He is not asking for permission, just posting his thoughts on an open forum.

Gilles is free to put forth his thoughts and ruffiangirl is free to put forth her thoughts on his thoughts, including criticism. Freedom of speech goes both ways. It doesn't mean "you can't criticize anything ever because freedom of speech!" Just the opposite, in fact.

 

[Mina]

Gilles is free to put forth his thoughts and ruffiangirl is free to put forth her thoughts on his thoughts, including criticism. Freedom of speech goes both ways. It doesn't mean "you can't criticize anything ever because freedom of speech!" Just the opposite, in fact.

Absolutely. And my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Of course she can ask him whatever she reasonably chooses. I was certainly not criticizing the criticism. Given the information provided, I'm surprised there hasn't been an enormous torrent of criticism ...

The point I was trying to make is that, although we would all love to see it , Gilles is under no moral obligation here to "show proof" of anything, prior to making any personal decisions (right or wrong).

 

[Sekah]

well i took a CAO puppy coming from a fighting line taken away from his mom early and i put all my effort and so far he is doing great !

"I took dog from fighting line but he's okay so let's breed. By the way, he's still a puppy."?

not bad for an inexperienced owner dont you think? most of the members who criticized me would not have the guts to take such a risk.

Guts? Risk? These are real lives about which you're talking.

 

[ruffiangirl]

Well you can't expect to come to a dog forum that has any sense at all and talk about getting, what 14, large, powerful and greatly misunderstood breeds, and go on about wanting to breed them, yet show no anything about them, their lineage, or crap all else, and not get questions, or criticized.

 

[gilles]

Mina: thanks again for your advice it will be taken seriously and thank you for your positive attitude.
i have no problem with criticism when it is positive , but i don t like blind prejudiced criticism the kind i am subject to by some members here.

Ruffiangirl: your attitude is a typical negative attitude, you just make some assumptions and you build your criticism upon wrong assumptions.
1- i have said many times that we are very well equipped and have the expertise and still preparing
2- i am no teenager playing here i am 52 years old university professor who managed an extremely successful career and now has the luxury of having lots of free time. i am also a father who raised a wonderful family and managed to get his kids to prestigious university such as stanford university with full scholarship! i don't like to prove anything and as Mina said i don't have to but just for your Ruffiangirl i am ready to do it anytime!
so given the above facts i don't think i can be classified as an irresponsible person that is engaging in some dangerous business. don't you think?

i never mentioned that my drive here is my love for nature and for animals especially dogs, hell i can handle snakes and alligators i think i can handle dogs lol ( as a joke)

 

[gilles]

COLOR="Navy"]First, I have to say that, that is a very impressive size for 6 1/2 month old puppy!!!

Secondly, as I've mentioned to you already, Gilles, Volka is just a baby. There is a very good chance that, come maturity, he will be a totally different dog from that with which you are now familiar - and this, regardless of your very best socializing, training and intentions ...

This does not mean that Volka will turn into a monster. However, puberty will metamorphose Volka into the adult which his genetics had pre-determined him to be. Having my own (wonderful) Russian guardian breed, I cannot overstate that simple fact; at this point, you cannot know what his eventual temperament will be.

Thirdly, I do hope you will, very carefully, consider some of the excellent advice already offered you in this thread, Gilles!

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

thanks again Mina, yes he is pretty big like his dad , i am trying now to get his weight steady for a while because he is slightly just slightly overweight. although he was slender growing up but he gained some weight the last month. unfortunately his parents are from a fighting background but i think with all my efforts he will turn out to be fine. i have learned a great deal with him. i have raised hunting dogs and bichon but this is my first LGD and volka is pretty tricky to deal with because force does not work with him it tends to backfire and excessive spoiling also does the same, so one has to be very careful and always be firm and mostly it is a challenge because you have to always try to outsmart him (he is exceptionally smart and curious). i think i found the right combination and formula to deal with him.
i would love to compare with you notes and get your insight on how BRT character compare to CAO

 

[gilles]

"I took dog from fighting line but he's okay so let's breed. By the way, he's still a puppy."?



Guts? Risk? These are real lives about which you're talking.

if i did not take him he could have ended up being used for fighting.... so i guess i did good. besides i dont believe that fighting is in the genes of some CAO more than others , it is how you raise him to be that counts. he might inherit some genetic traits and predispositions but this does not mean that he will grow up with these predispositions and act upon them. in fact he could grow out of them.

 

[DJEtzel]

if i did not take him he could have ended up being used for fighting.... so i guess i did good. besides i dont believe that fighting is in the genes of some CAO more than others , it is how you raise him to be that counts. he might inherit some genetic traits and predispositions but this does not mean that he will grow up with these predispositions and act upon them. in fact he could grow out of them.

It absolutely does mean that. Aggression can absolutely be genetic and no amount of training can make him a friendly adult if he is meant to be aggressive based on his genes.

See pit bulls and dog aggression. See weak nerved dogs raised fantastically and human aggression. My German shepherd was with us from 12 weeks and had a wonderful upbringing and at 6 months I sure never thought there would be a time that he showed aggression towards people for no reason.

 

[ruffiangirl]

Meh troll.

 

[gilles]

Djetzel; i am not sure how he will turn out to be ....neither do you..but
1- i am sure that i am doing my best
2-and that i will not give up on him.
so if you have any positive suggestions i will be glad to hear

Ruffiangirl: you just have nothing to say so you keep on accusing me of things..i don't even know what a troll is ..i am not accustomed to forums and all the forum slang. anyways i do not hold any bad feelings towards you i don't even know you, so i will always hope that sometime you will change your attitude in life. have fun!

 

[Locke]

Gilles, I just want to clarify.

You and your business partner have/are acquiring dogs with show or working titles? Or the bloodlines have a few titles here and there?


"Proving yourself" and being proud of your dogs' heritage and accomplishments is all part of breeding. Everything you do as a breeder will be scrutinized by other breeders, and fanciers of the breed. Negative comments will always accompany positive ones. Take ALL criticisms to heart.

 

[Romy]

if i did not take him he could have ended up being used for fighting.... so i guess i did good. besides i dont believe that fighting is in the genes of some CAO more than others , it is how you raise him to be that counts. he might inherit some genetic traits and predispositions but this does not mean that he will grow up with these predispositions and act upon them. in fact he could grow out of them.

That's not how it works. At all.

Dog aggression and same sex aggression is absolutely genetic. You can train them very heavily and manage it so they're obedient enough they don't go lunging after every dog you pass on the street during a walk, but a DA/SSA dog will never, ever under any circumstances be safe off leash with other dogs. Especially unsupervised.

That said:

LGDs don't show their true temperament until they're fully mature. That is, 2-4 years old. They are delightful puppies. Really marshmallowy and they can be downright social. Volka sounds like that right now, and that's fairly normal for his age.

He will hit an age where his brain will "click" into place and he will change. He will still be himself, but there will be an underlying intensity and readiness to react to anything and everything that could be a threat. It's hard to describe, but once it happens you will know what I mean.

Also, dog aggression and same sex aggression doesn't necessarily mean a dog is unstable or has a bad temperament. It just means they're dog or same sex aggressive.

Part of it is dependent on breed. Most hounds should not be dog aggressive because they are intended to work cooperatively with other dogs. So in those breeds, dog aggression would be faulty temperament.

In other breeds that have been bred for dog fighting, it's normal for dog aggression to be common. In many breeds that have been bred for guarding and defensiveness, and a not-giving-up attitude, dog aggression and same sex aggression are a byproduct of that. It's extremely common in akitas, CO, CAO, dobermans, American pit bull terriers, many many of the LGDs are same sex or dog aggressive. It would be faster to list the LGD breeds that are typically good with other dogs than the ones that aren't.

Never having met Volka, I have to say that a puppy not just from fighting lines, but from a fighting kennel that actively breeds fighting dogs and whose parents lasted long enough in the world of dog fighting to be bred, and looking at his breed, has a very strong chance of becoming at least same sex aggressive as an adult.

It has nothing to do with loving him enough and socializing him enough. Though the socialization and especially obedience training help immensely with making him controllable no matter how he turns out.

We just want you to be prepared for whatever he grows up into. Be aware that no matter what you do, he has that capacity in himself and keep him out of situations where that can be triggered and someone get hurt or worse. Especially as he grows into his teenager months.

 

[gilles]

Gilles, I just want to clarify.

You and your business partner have/are acquiring dogs with show or working titles? Or the bloodlines have a few titles here and there?


"Proving yourself" and being proud of your dogs' heritage and accomplishments is all part of breeding. Everything you do as a breeder will be scrutinized by other breeders, and fanciers of the breed. Negative comments will always accompany positive ones. Take ALL criticisms to heart.

sure some of the dogs come from prestigious kennels and from a good lineage of titles. some others are just good show dogs with fewer or less titles. but all of them are from a healthy lineage and surely look good. they were not ordered based on pictures. my partner went himself and picked them. and we will be traveling again together for new dogs when the whole thing is ready. he already has some great contacts that he has been working on for years.We are very selective in getting our puppies since we will be concentrating on quality rather than quantity. and again our dogs will be treated as home raised dogs. the puppies my partner already got sleep with him in his room lol no kidding!
business wise: i can understand some the concerns here but dogs from Russia, romania, Ukraine, and so on are much cheaper to get than from the US, given the same quality.... it is around 3 to 5 times cheaper and also much cheaper than local dogs( which are almost as in the US). and a dog will cost me to raise over here much much less than it will cost in the US. However the selling prices here are quite close the USA.
but mainly our concern is not business oriented we will be very pleased with any benefits we make, especially myself i am not counting on this to make my living, for me it is just a passion.

 

[gilles]

That's not how it works. At all.

Dog aggression and same sex aggression is absolutely genetic. You can train them very heavily and manage it so they're obedient enough they don't go lunging after every dog you pass on the street during a walk, but a DA/SSA dog will never, ever under any circumstances be safe off leash with other dogs. Especially unsupervised.

That said:

LGDs don't show their true temperament until they're fully mature. That is, 2-4 years old. They are delightful puppies. Really marshmallowy and they can be downright social. Volka sounds like that right now, and that's fairly normal for his age.

He will hit an age where his brain will "click" into place and he will change. He will still be himself, but there will be an underlying intensity and readiness to react to anything and everything that could be a threat. It's hard to describe, but once it happens you will know what I mean.

Also, dog aggression and same sex aggression doesn't necessarily mean a dog is unstable or has a bad temperament. It just means they're dog or same sex aggressive.

Part of it is dependent on breed. Most hounds should not be dog aggressive because they are intended to work cooperatively with other dogs. So in those breeds, dog aggression would be faulty temperament.

In other breeds that have been bred for dog fighting, it's normal for dog aggression to be common. In many breeds that have been bred for guarding and defensiveness, and a not-giving-up attitude, dog aggression and same sex aggression are a byproduct of that. It's extremely common in akitas, CO, CAO, dobermans, American pit bull terriers, many many of the LGDs are same sex or dog aggressive. It would be faster to list the LGD breeds that are typically good with other dogs than the ones that aren't.

Never having met Volka, I have to say that a puppy not just from fighting lines, but from a fighting kennel that actively breeds fighting dogs and whose parents lasted long enough in the world of dog fighting to be bred, and looking at his breed, has a very strong chance of becoming at least same sex aggressive as an adult.

It has nothing to do with loving him enough and socializing him enough. Though the socialization and especially obedience training help immensely with making him controllable no matter how he turns out.

We just want you to be prepared for whatever he grows up into. Be aware that no matter what you do, he has that capacity in himself and keep him out of situations where that can be triggered and someone get hurt or worse. Especially as he grows into his teenager months.

sure that is what i meant he will have his tendencies but not necessarily act upon them if well trained and not given the chance.. which i intend to do.
the trainer already put me in the picture and we are working extensively on obedience. Volka is responding surprisingly much better than normal dogs however the down side so far is that he can get bored quickly and start acting on his own ..not doing bad things but just being independent and stubborn. he also knows to behave during training sessions but to act silly off training sessions as if he knows that training sessions are school time! very smart! also the problem with CAO is that most of them will come from a fighting line , in russia and central asia , fighting is a tradition where dogs do not necessarily engage in a bloody fight , it is just like the Tosa in japan the fights are not for money and are mostly harmless, nevertheless unfortunately it is still a fight!

 

[CharlieDog]

How long does it take to get a troll banned these days? Really. Good lord people. Stop feeding it and it'll go away. And probably it's sock puppet with it.

 

[JazzyTheSibe]

Just because your dog "looks good", doesn't mean the dog should be bred.

When you mean "healthy lineage", do you mean the dogs were free of genetic diseases? Have you tested the dogs for genetic disease Are they free of those genetic diseases?

You don't only want to breed a dog that is conformationally correct, & has a sound temperament, you also want a dog free of genetic diseases. The dogs should have titles in either conformation, in working, or in both.

Don't expect to make much of a profit when breeding. Some breeders actually lose money,not gain money.

A "responsible" breeder will not breed for a profit,ever.

Don't breed for quantity, over quality. It wouldn't help you at all. Will you possible earn more money? Sure, but you doing NO good for the breed, & you are creating unhealthy dogs.

 

[ruffiangirl]

Quality over quantity...so run out and grab 14 dogs off the bat....right...


Ok I'm done with the troll.