Question about GSD's.

DanL

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#41
Interesting thread! Julie your dog is very nice looking! So is yours GSDMom! I don't have any pics of Gunnar in any kind of stack. Here's the closest I could get, by putting his ball up on this chest and getting the pic while he was reaching for it. Of course, his tail is wagging. :) Gunnar is German show lines and was about 7 months old in this pic.

 

panzer426

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#42
I agree about the extreme angulation, it is bad. The dogs that have the trait when not in a stack I mean. That is bad for their joints from their ankles to their spinal cord.
but in a dog like gsdmoms, you can see the difference...in the first photos she posted the dog "appears" to be extremely over angulated. if he lived like this all the time (walking around the house and yard, chasing a frisbee, herding sheep etc) he would have some health problems as a result. but you can see in her most recent post on page 4 of this thread that his extreme angulation is not his normal posture. My guess is that he is healthy (as far as joints and bones are concerned) and moves very smoothly and efortlessly.
its like the analogy I made about women wearing high heel shoes. if you wear high heel shoes for very long (okay, Im a guy but I am married) your feet get sore and by the time you get home from work, wedding or whatever the occasion was...you cant wait to take them off and rub your feet. if you had them surgically attached to your feet so that you could never take them off then your life would be uncomfortable to say the least, and you would almost certainly develop some health problems in your feet, legs and back. most show gsd's are not in a stack for very long at all.
the only difference I see between gsdmoms american showline dog is that his head is not as heavy/thick/blocky as a european gsd. as for working ability, he almost surely has the same working ability as a german working line (physically), but the big difference (probably) is that european gsd's in general have far higher drive than american gsd's. gsdmom, I'm not saying that your gsd doesnt have enough drive, he very well might, but typically that is true because the european lines (even show) wether bred here or europe are usually bred for ability more than looks.
 

Jynx

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#44
GSDMom just wanted to say your gsd's are gorgeous..Julie, your pooch is gorgeous as well, but I have to disagree that she would be considered a bi-color..A bi color is just that, two colors, a bi color gsd, (and I have one *vbg*) is predominantly black, with usually, a tan/dark brown/red coloring on lower portions of the leg, they also may have small tan/dark brown/red patches on the face to be considered a bi..This is my "Dodge" who is a bicolor http:// www.angelfire.com/ct/jakoda/dodge.html .

I would say yours would be reg'd as either black/tan or if she's more silver than tan, black/silver. She looks alot like my 'czech' girl but she definately has to much color other than black, to be called a bi color.

Happy Holidays
Diane
 

Zoom

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#47
This has been an incredibly interesting thread! I know very, very little about GSD's so thanks to everyone who posted! Looking at all those links has solidified my opinion that I really don't like the current show stance. I like the more natural look from back in the '60's. Also, those first progenators of the GSD lines do look quite different from the modern ones! Maybe it's just that we've bred for specific coat colors and all, but I can't think of any that I've seen that have that mottled "wolf color" looking coat that Horand had.

Did anyone else notice in Horand's pedigree, one of his forebearers was a white GSD? Interesting to me anyway.
 

Julie

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#48
panzer426 said:
no problem. did I understand you correctly? she is a police dog? Im not doubting you, just curious because you werent sure of her background, said you were told she was german working lines. I thought all of the police departments and federal agencies were importing dogs from germany, czech republic and belgium on their own. where did she come from?
in 1985 when I was only 6 years old my parents had to give up a gsd mix that my dad rescued from a co worker. it was her sons dog and he went off to college (I think, long time since I heard the story) and the dog lived on a chain about 6 feet long under their deck. my dad told her after hearing this that she could give it to him or she could give it to animal control after he called them. truthfully I doubt they would have taken it since it was being fed, had a dog house, had fresh water and was getting regular vet checks. anyway, we had the dog for maybe 6 months and he was perfectly obedient on leash but off leash he would vanish in a second. and to make it worse he could easily hop the fence which was 6 or 7 feet tall. not sure how my dad new him but the guy who adopted him from us was a police officer and he became a k-9 partner for him.
anyway my point was that I didnt think any american police departments did that anymore, thought they all imported them now.
Well I guess all Police Dept's are not importing directly from where you mentioned. As a matter of fact I know a couple narcotic only dogs that are pound rescues. And trained after rescue. And another certified patrol dog that has no background at all.

The breeder (I think I said trainer before, but it was the breeder that told me this, oops). The breeder said her father was a police k-9 coming directly from Germany working lines. I am not sure about the mother. So more than likely she has some German working bloodlines but then mixed with American or something else. I am just really not educated enough to even talk about this in general.

When we got her my husband and son (5 years at the time) met with breeder and trainer together. Our main concern was her reactions to our children. She passed with flying colors. The breeder gave the trainer the Akc papers and he handed them to my husband and said he had no use for those, I guess he believes in an individual dogs ability not putting importance on
where they came from.

But Rocket passed her tests for drive and working capability.

So I still have her puppy registration papers for Akc, I don't have her pedigree yet, but when I send them in I will have more information.

Actually she was training with my husband(after months of training with the trainer) for only one week and they had to cert to be able to work on the streets and they passed with lots of great comments referring to them working so great together.

She was certified in narcotics, tracking, apprehension, and protection, which qualifies her as a patrol dog. So, because she fits in so great with our family, and does her job equally well, I just am not so concerned about her physical attributes, although it is very interesting, thats why I asked.

And again to answer your question, not all law enforcement agencies have their dogs imported. But I live in WV, I do not know what other states do. But I would be inclined to believe it is up to the individual departments to buy what they want and from where.

Thanks for your help,
Julie.
 
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panzer426

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#49
thats really interesting, I wasnt doubting you just wanted to know. I had never talked to anyone in the police departments who said all departments were importing...just seemed that way so I assumed that was how every department was aquiring their german shepherds. thats really interesting.
as for the color disagreement, it all depends on perspective. the difference between a black and tan and a bi color is cloudy. some would say she is a bi color, others would say black and tan/silver. I'm not a judge but I have seen a lot of dogs judged and from what I have seen I would expect an american judge to consider her a bi color. I actually even saw a disagreement between a judge and a breeder/handler about the color of a certain dog (not at a real show). the judge was very certain that this particular dog was nothing other than a black and tan and would not admit she was wrong...the dog was inarguably a red sable. the coat was darker around the back as a saddle but he was a sable dog. after another judge who apparently had a little more experience the original judge finally stopped arguing but you could tell she was not happy and didnt agree. this was at a schutzhund club meeting and two judges just happened to be members of the club. they werent showing or judging the dog on this day.
like I said earlier, you can pretty much call her almost anything. black and tan, black and silver, bi color...akc wont know and no matter which you choose some will agree with you and some will disagree. I do know that if you really want to know for sure what akc's opinion is you can look at www.akc.com and find a gsd club in your area or atleast in your state, contact someone in that club (president/director) and they might allow you to email them a picture of her and then they could tell you their opinion.
sables are actually quite common (horands coloring), but not as desirable among american showline gsd's. you see them most in german and czech working lines. here are a few photos... http://community.webshots.com/album/63484797SsreaU (a black sable)

http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html (this one is a pretty good page as far as examples of the various colors, scroll half way down to see the sables)

http://www.nwk9.com/type_comparison.htm (this page has a couple of sables)

if I ever get a scanner I will post a few pics of my last gsd, he was a red sable.
 

Zoom

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#50
Great links panzer, i put that one right next to the page detailing different colors in border collies.
 

RD

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#51
I see a lot of Shepherds and dogs with even the steepest croups still get around. Their backs are part of what give them the reach and drive in their gait, which is crucial to the breed. (Not only for the show ring, but for their job as well. A herding dog should move smoothly, effortlessly and cover a lot of ground in a single stride.)

I credit the extremely steep slope to the toplines of some of these dogs, to the way they are handled. A GSD will not free-stack to such an extreme pose without extensive training. "Overstacking" is apparently just the way GSDs are presented for show, I don't exactly know why.

Julie, I'm not an expert on shepherd conformation and couldn't give you an 'expert opinion' on your pretty girl but I had to comment on Rocket's pasterns and feet... They look fabulous! Good feet/pasterns are -so- rare in the breed.
 

Jynx

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#53
I'll try to post a pic,,,but bear with me I'm pretty computer illiterate LOL
diane
 

panzer426

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#55
hey, I just talked to my old trainer who was also the breeder of my first gsd, leader of my first schutzhund club, and my mentor for many years. she said that the defining line between a black and tan and a bi-color is this... if the tan on the feet extends up too 3 inches above the arm pit onto the dogs shoulder it is a bi-color...if the tan/silver etc extends more than 3 inches onto the shoulder/above the arm pit it is a black and tan.
oh yeah...Jynx, gorgeous dog. his face looks a little too happy to beleive the sign though. where did you get that sign? dont know if I would put it on my gate but would deffinetly be a wall hanger at least, I love it.
 

DanL

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#56
Panzer, the would you consider this a black and tan or a bi color?

 

panzer426

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#57
from what she told me I would say bi-color. her ex husband when we lived in the same states and I got into gsd's through her, was a akc judge. from my experience there seems to be descrepency even amongst akc judges on where the line is drawn. seems I remember something about tan markings on the face making a difference too but I dont know. I will ask her and see what she says.
 

sheps4me

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#58
DanL said:
Panzer, the would you consider this a black and tan or a bi color?

Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'd definitely say black and tan ;) He's very handsome. Looks very similar to my guy.
 
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yuckaduck

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#59
sheps4me said:
Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'd definitely say black and tan ;) He's very handsome. Looks very similar to my guy.
He kinda has the same markings a yuck and he is registered black and tan.
 

Julie

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#60
Julie said:
Here are are some more pics. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I too find all this very interesting.
Comments appreiciated.

Julie.

Julie said:
Here are some more pictures....







I have some more pictures too, but I have to load them to my PhotoBucket before I can post them. There is also one of her in my signature below.

Julie.
Anyone else have an opinion? bi-color or black & tan?
Not that I didn't believe any certain person, but again I have a couple different opinions.
Just trying to get a majority to agree. lol

This just all seems too broad, are there certain rules on identfiying a color?

Thanks again,
and I did appriciate all those that helped me.

Julie.
 

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