Pit bull. A breed in itself?

GlassOnion

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#1
Ok I'm a Biomedical Sciences major who will hopefully go into vet med later on down the road.

So my sister calls me a few days ago asking if a pit bull would be a good pet to have for her apartment. I tell her yes. Just give it a lot of exercise when she's off work and let it socialize with people/other dogs while younger and it shouldnt' be a problem.

But while talking to her I was looking on the AKC site and noticed that there was no such thing as a Pit bull recognized by the AKC.

I did find something called an American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff) which I thought would be a pit bull but it's a little different. I then Googled (ah google, what a marvelous device) pit bull and found that the 'breed' is called an American Pit Bull Terrier (AmPB) so I re-checked the AKC site and alas, it's not on there.

I told my sister this and she said that pit bull is indeed a breed but I'm not so sure.

So for the sake of knowledge is pit bull a breed?

I say no.
For one the AKC doesn't recognize it.
Two an AmStaff looks a great deal like a 'pit bull'.
Three, browsing some more I found that a lot of pit bull sites refer to the AmStaff and the AmPB as the same dog behavorially but not in breed lines.

Thus I've come to the hypothesis that a 'pit bull' is merely a crossbred offspring with the dam or sire being an AmStaff.

Support for that is just in the general AmStaff phenotype as well as the name (shire, which I believe also means 'sire' which is the father. Also seen in pig breeds such as Yorkshire).

So can anyone verify one way or another?
 
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#2
There are many breeds that are not recognized by AKC but that's not to say they aren't a "breed". Each year you find them recognizing another breed.

Pitbulls are a great breed but they are not for a novice owner, as are not many other breeds. Make sure your sister does alot of research on the breed and if she decides that one would be a perfect fit for her she then needs to find a responsible breeder.
 

Love4Pits

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#3
Yes it IS in fact a breed just because it is not in the AKC does not make it false. I own three American Pitbull Terriers. It is not an amstaff though most people do think it is they are wrong if you check true resources (I have MANY books naming the Pitbull and the Staff as completely different breeds with slightly different temperments). American Pitbull Terriers are recognized by certain breed organizations.

The AKC does not recognize ALOT of different breeds but that does not mean they do not exist. I know quite alot about this breed and can get you good resources to prove my point.
 

bubbatd

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#4
I'm sure you'll receive a lot of answers tomorrow... there are a lot of pitty owners here. Sorry that I can't help...it confuses me too !!
 

GlassOnion

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#6
Pitty owner? Not sure I understand the term and the context doesn't help either.

Pitbulls are a great breed but they are not for a novice owner, as are not many other breeds. Make sure your sister does alot of research on the breed and if she decides that one would be a perfect fit for her she then needs to find a responsible breeder.
I have no doubt that my sister can handle it. My family has had dogs all our lives and we've done our equal share of vet visits, exercising, training, feeding/cleaning, etc and so forth with a myriad of breeds.


And I realize the AKC doesn't recognize every breed but I've also read several other sites that say pit bull is just a generic term for a host of different breeds and crossbreeds.

Quoting this from that site:
these dogs are a likely cross between Bulldogs and various Terriers.
I could see a cross between an AmStaff and bulldog as yielding a pit bull. That pretty much answers my question.

It's hard to argue if something is really a breed or not. I find it hard to say that an AmPB is a breed when it originates from a crossbreed. But I suppose every breed originates from a crossbreed somewhere along the line (IE Dalmations are likely a creation of man and not nature).
 

GlassOnion

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#9
According to that site I was half-right.

Pit bulls did indeed come from Staffordshires but I suppose a 100 year gap is enough to constitute being a seperate breed.

Classed by AKC as "American Staffordshire Terrier" and by UKC as "American Pit Bull Terrier." The American Staffordshire Terrier, are generally of larger bone structure, head size and weight then their cousins the American Pit Bull Terrier.
Though isn't that contradictory? It's recognized by two differnet organizations as the same dog unless the UKC just completely disregards the existance of an AmStaff and the AKC the same for an AmPB.

No need to be rude. Pitty owner is an owner of a Pitbull like myself.
Wasn't trying to be rude. I was just stating that the context didn't make sense to me. I thought pitty was a typo of 'pity' and that pit bull owners bought them out of pity for the dog or something. Thus why it didn't make sense to me.
 
R

rottiegirl

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#12
Check out these links!!

This link should really help you out!... http://www.workingpitbull.com/pictures.htm Pit bulls are a breed. Am staffs are bigger and more heavy than a pit bull. Pit bulls are working dogs, and am staffs were bred for show. Am staffs, pit bulls, and staffordshire bull terriers are very closely related. Pits are not for apartments! They are way too hyper and they needs lots of exercise. Here is another link that compares the three breeds... http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm This link is absolutely great!
 

Saje

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#13
I don't agree at all that pits aren't for apartments. The ones I've met are quite laid back and with some decent exercise should be fine. Just ask my mikey, granted he's a mutt, of all my dogs he's the one that prefers to be inside all the time with us.
 

MyDogsLoveMe

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#14
Shoot I dont care if they are not recongnized I love my pitty, she is a doll and a lover not a fighter.
 

Athebeau

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#15
First to understand breeds you need to understand that our current breeds came from natural races of dogs - man did not create dogs...he only created the purebreds that he made from natural races of dogs. Current purebred dogs are fairly new.
Basically we humans are races, we adapted and evolved to suit our environment (Eskimo's, Pigmy's etc.) the only difference is each race evolved to suit it's environment. For a human to become a purebred or a breed you would need the assistance of Hitler or follow the dangerous breeding of the royal family. :)
So, by realizing that all of our current man made breeds came from natural races of dogs it is quite easy to see where all the confusion of the ancestry of our current purebreds come from. In the day of dog fighting as a sport man used dogs that had enhanced motor patterns and the full sequence of predatory motor patterns...it's quite interesting to know that natural dog breeds have the full series of motor patterns but not enhanced like some of our working groups. Anyway, back in those days man either just let their dogs breed naturally (for example the transhumance on their biannual migrations...you had people moving sheep with their dogs for hundreds of miles which allowed their dogs to mate with village dogs along the way.), or they took the best dog (the winner and bred to the another top fighting dog...perhaps even carrying over some specific motor patterns developed).
So, understanding that there were natural species of dogs man then started realizing their worth...but, they still were not breeding as we do today, they used a huge gene pool instead of small gene pools that we do today.
So, basically the APBT came from a race of dogs perhaps looking a little bit like the current APBT's...the dogs were good at fighting - their behavioral conformation shaped the dogs into the current look they have ...when the kennel clubs came along they took the "look" of those fighting dogs and tried to recreate the same look without the enhanced predatory drives to make nicer pets. So, therefore you have tons of dogs that come from these races (not purebreds)...in order to create a purebred dog you have to set a standard and a look, this involves separating a few select dogs from the mass population and line breeding and inbreeding to set a standard look. All of our current purebreds have inbreeding in their lineage. Once you have set a standard look and behavior for so many generations you can then approach the kennel clubs and asked the breed now be recognized. I could start a new purebred dog within the next 2 years if I wanted to. So, this is how you create a purebred, a purebred dog comes from races of natural dogs which have been sexually isolated from the great population. That is why you can have so many different purebred dogs and mixed breed dogs that look like a certain group...and sometimes mongrels may be the direct descendants of the orginal fighting dogs (which were races, not purebred or breeds) and have no purebred lineage in them at all...keeping in mind that purebreds are fairly new. Sometimes a person will see a dog that looks like an APBT, but, will state it is not an APBT...but, this dog may come from the same natural race of dogs that the current Staff's, APBT's and other bull breeds come from.

So, this brings us to the working dogs and dogs used still for dog fighting. Most working dog breeders realize the harm and damage a kennel club does to a breed of dog over all. So, some breed clubs will drag their feet and not allow their breed to be recognized...this is what happened with the border collies. A few years ago, perhaps more than that...people who work their sheep with border collies waged a campaign against the registration of their breed by the American Kennel Club. Because showing eye is a genetic trait, it can be selected against, and if border collies are going to be bred for shows and as pets, breeders are going to have to get rid of the eye. This is basically the same for the APBT, if they are recognized by the AKC the breed club is afraid they will ruin the enhanced drives that make them good fighting dogs. I've talked to a few border collie breeders who have caught judges putting up poor species of border collies in the show (since they are now registered with the AKC even with all the protests of the breed club)...one lady who works her border collies went up one side of a judge and down the other for putting up a border collie just because it was pretty...unfortunately this is how most dog shows in North America work. The border collie is a breed, now it is a recognized purebred dog...they are in fact a race of dogs as they are from a huge race of simulair dogs....so, a population of natural dogs is called a breed...a dog recognized by a kennel club is called a purebred. Just different breeding practices, there is nothing more pure in a purebred dog than a breed of dogs. It's bascially a little bit of snobbery in humans...since we can no longer discriminate against races of humans we now direct our snobbery towards dogs...when a mongrel may have a longer lineage of natural pure breeding and comes from a direct natural breed....purebreds are more often mixed breeds which are inbred to create a certain look...or a small portion of a natural bred and selectively bred to create a certain color etc.
For true working dogs breeders do not follow the strict rules of the kennel clubs...kennel clubs actually encourage linebreeding and inbreeding especially if you start out with only a few founder dogs. With true working dogs, breeders try to keep their breed as a race and not the tight constant of a purebred...keeping the dog as a race gives the breeder a bigger gene pool and choices. Take for example Alaskan Huskies, the best sled dogs in the world...these dogs are not registered because they are not bred like our purebred dogs. The breeders of Alaskan Huskies use any thing that is fast and there is no set physical standard for the breed except that they are normally long-legged, racy looking dogs. They often have pricked ears and coat coloring of a husky, but those are superficial traits that don't have much to do with running fast. So, basically these dogs are selected for their behavioral conformation...running is a behavior and not physical conformation...they chose dogs with a proper gait...there is no purebred breeding involved in this race of dogs...it's more adaptation involved. Border collies have been used for breeding with this race of Alaskan huskies as well and they still use border collies.
I know I got off topic with the other breeds...but, this will give you an idea. Most people who use a certain group of dogs for a certain activity do not want the strict unhealthy breeding constraints that a kennel club enforces. With the APBT breeders are breeding for sporty dogs, smaller and with enhanced drives...they kennel club versions have the same background except they bred against certain enhanced drives...were the working dog is being bred for behavioral conformation the kennel clubs mainly breed for physical conformation.....and sadly you cannot judge a dog properly by standing and jogging around a show ring...they only way to properly judge true conformation this can only be seen by the dog performing its job.

Any how, I hope this helps you. It's always good to take everyone's ideas and come up with your own thoughts. I have studied this topic of purebreds and natural breeds by reading books by biologist who have been studying and breeding working dogs... ;) . So therefore my line of thought may be quite different than other peoples...that's OK. You come to your own conclusion.

So, basically the APBT is a direct descendant of a race of dogs...they also used this race to create other bull breeds but by selectively breeding dogs that do not display the enhanced drives to make a more stable pet. The APBT is what I would call a working dog version of the Staffordshire Terriers...The Staff is bred for looks and impact in the show ring, where the APBT is not bred for looks but working ability and the correct behavioral conformation.
 
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Gempress

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#16
The American Pit Bull Terrier is a seperate breed, and they have been in existence for a very long time. The term "pit bull" has become a generic term, describing everything with a pit bull look, even Staffordshire terriers.

AKC recognition does not make the breed. I have a blackmouth cur. They're a breed, but you won't find them in the AKC. Just look up "rare dog breeds" on Google. You'd be astounded at how many dog breeds you find that aren't in the AKC.
 

BigDog2191

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#17
Athebeau said:
First to understand breeds you need to understand that our current breeds came from natural races of dogs - man did not create dogs...he only created the purebreds that he made from natural races of dogs. Current purebred dogs are fairly new.
Basically we humans are races, we adapted and evolved to suit our environment (Eskimo's, Pigmy's etc.) the only difference is each race evolved to suit it's environment. For a human to become a purebred or a breed you would need the assistance of Hitler or follow the dangerous breeding of the royal family. :)
So, by realizing that all of our current man made breeds came from natural races of dogs it is quite easy to see where all the confusion of the ancestry of our current purebreds come from. In the day of dog fighting as a sport man used dogs that had enhanced motor patterns and the full sequence of predatory motor patterns...it's quite interesting to know that natural dog breeds have the full series of motor patterns but not enhanced like some of our working groups. Anyway, back in those days man either just let their dogs breed naturally (for example the transhumance on their biannual migrations...you had people moving sheep with their dogs for hundreds of miles which allowed their dogs to mate with village dogs along the way.), or they took the best dog (the winner and bred to the another top fighting dog...perhaps even carrying over some specific motor patterns developed).
So, understanding that there were natural species of dogs man then started realizing their worth...but, they still were not breeding as we do today, they used a huge gene pool instead of small gene pools that we do today.
So, basically the APBT came from a race of dogs perhaps looking a little bit like the current APBT's...the dogs were good at fighting - their behavioral conformation shaped the dogs into the current look they have ...when the kennel clubs came along they took the "look" of those fighting dogs and tried to recreate the same look without the enhanced predatory drives to make nicer pets. So, therefore you have tons of dogs that come from these races (not purebreds)...in order to create a purebred dog you have to set a standard and a look, this involves separating a few select dogs from the mass population and line breeding and inbreeding to set a standard look. All of our current purebreds have inbreeding in their lineage. Once you have set a standard look and behavior for so many generations you can then approach the kennel clubs and asked the breed now be recognized. I could start a new purebred dog within the next 2 years if I wanted to. So, this is how you create a purebred, a purebred dog comes from races of natural dogs which have been sexually isolated from the great population. That is why you can have so many different purebred dogs and mixed breed dogs that look like a certain group...and sometimes mongrels may be the direct descendants of the orginal fighting dogs (which were races, not purebred or breeds) and have no purebred lineage in them at all...keeping in mind that purebreds are fairly new. Sometimes a person will see a dog that looks like an APBT, but, will state it is not an APBT...but, this dog may come from the same natural race of dogs that the current Staff's, APBT's and other bull breeds come from.

So, this brings us to the working dogs and dogs used still for dog fighting. Most working dog breeders realize the harm and damage a kennel club does to a breed of dog over all. So, some breed clubs will drag their feet and not allow their breed to be recognized...this is what happened with the border collies. A few years ago, perhaps more than that...people who work their sheep with border collies waged a campaign against the registration of their breed by the American Kennel Club. Because showing eye is a genetic trait, it can be selected against, and if border collies are going to be bred for shows and as pets, breeders are going to have to get rid of the eye. This is basically the same for the APBT, if they are recognized by the AKC the breed club is afraid they will ruin the enhanced drives that make them good fighting dogs. I've talked to a few border collie breeders who have caught judges putting up poor species of border collies in the show (since they are now registered with the AKC even with all the protests of the breed club)...one lady who works her border collies went up one side of a judge and down the other for putting up a border collie just because it was pretty...unfortunately this is how most dog shows in North America work. The border collie is a breed, now it is a recognized purebred dog...they are in fact a race of dogs as they are from a huge race of simulair dogs....so, a population of natural dogs is called a breed...a dog recognized by a kennel club is called a purebred. Just different breeding practices, there is nothing more pure in a purebred dog than a breed of dogs. It's bascially a little bit of snobbery in humans...since we can no longer discriminate against races of humans we now direct our snobbery towards dogs...when a mongrel may have a longer lineage of natural pure breeding and comes from a direct natural breed....purebreds are more often mixed breeds which are inbred to create a certain look...or a small portion of a natural bred and selectively bred to create a certain color etc.
For true working dogs breeders do not follow the strict rules of the kennel clubs...kennel clubs actually encourage linebreeding and inbreeding especially if you start out with only a few founder dogs. With true working dogs, breeders try to keep their breed as a race and not the tight constant of a purebred...keeping the dog as a race gives the breeder a bigger gene pool and choices. Take for example Alaskan Huskies, the best sled dogs in the world...these dogs are not registered because they are not bred like our purebred dogs. The breeders of Alaskan Huskies use any thing that is fast and there is no set physical standard for the breed except that they are normally long-legged, racy looking dogs. They often have pricked ears and coat coloring of a husky, but those are superficial traits that don't have much to do with running fast. So, basically these dogs are selected for their behavioral conformation...running is a behavior and not physical conformation...they chose dogs with a proper gait...there is no purebred breeding involved in this race of dogs...it's more adaptation involved. Border collies have been used for breeding with this race of Alaskan huskies as well and they still use border collies.
I know I got off topic with the other breeds...but, this will give you an idea. Most people who use a certain group of dogs for a certain activity do not want the strict unhealthy breeding constraints that a kennel club enforces. With the APBT breeders are breeding for sporty dogs, smaller and with enhanced drives...they kennel club versions have the same background except they bred against certain enhanced drives...were the working dog is being bred for behavioral conformation the kennel clubs mainly breed for physical conformation.....and sadly you cannot judge a dog properly by standing and jogging around a show ring...they only way to properly judge true conformation this can only be seen by the dog performing its job.

Any how, I hope this helps you. It's always good to take everyone's ideas and come up with your own thoughts. I have studied this topic of purebreds and natural breeds by reading books by biologist who have been studying and breeding working dogs... ;) . So therefore my line of thought may be quite different than other peoples...that's OK. You come to your own conclusion.

So, basically the APBT is a direct descendant of a race of dogs...they also used this race to create other bull breeds but by selectively breeding dogs that do not display the enhanced drives to make a more stable pet. The APBT is what I would call a working dog version of the Staffordshire Terriers...The Staff is bred for looks and impact in the show ring, where the APBT is not bred for looks but working ability and the correct behavioral conformation.
Paragraphs are your friend, lol. ;)

The American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed of it's own. But like someone already mentioned, "pitbull" is a generic term and most people will use it without hesitation on even a Boxer.
 

GlassOnion

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#18
Hmm...paragraphs are indeed your friend. Reading that was kinda hard on the eyes (me waking up about 10 minutes ago didn't help either).

Yah I know pit bull is a generic term (how else are the soccermoms going to ban every dog out there who may look at her kid wrong?) but every breed has to come from some where.

Like athe said there were only a few dogs in the beginning so not much genetic selection there. That and they came from Africa (as did everything else dependent on your philosophical views) so a gradual diffusion around Europe and Asia would create dog breeds who adapt to their environment to get long haired dogs from the short haired dogs of Africa (if they were short haired, might have been cold in Africa so many years back...).

Then humans would breed the dogs to work well in that climate. For better muscles in the north (to pull sleds through snow or something like that), better heat tolerance in the south, or for whatever that breed is supposed to do (AKA the short nose for bulldogs).

So, by realizing that all of our current man made breeds came from natural races of dogs it is quite easy to see where all the confusion of the ancestry of our current purebreds come from.
Basically a purebred is just an isolated form of expressed traits that we want to be expressed over and over again. So, theoretically, anyone can create a new breed by just crossing the same dogs over and over again. I'm not sure how inbreeding works in dogs though. I know it works in livestock with little/no harm but doesn't in humans.
 

Athebeau

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#19
Hmm...paragraphs are indeed your friend. Reading that was kinda hard on the eyes (me waking up about 10 minutes ago didn't help either).
I apologize for my huge post :) I just get a little carried away. It was easy to type...perhaps just hard to read :( That only took me 5 minutes to type as I was in a hurry...haha...it shows.
 

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