Outcrossing?

[Laurelin]

It's pretty hard to find a sheltie who doesn't have Peter in their lines these days... a more recent dog I hear a lot about is Jade Mist Beyond Tradition (Dillon.) I don't think he's still living and he didn't produce anywhere NEAR as many champions as Peter, but he's certainly a popular face in several lines these days...

Sir Joshua of Winslow, funny enough... has Peter in his lines.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/rom/Josh.html


ETA: I was curious to see if I could find Peter in Auggie's pedigree. Joshua of Winslow is Auggie's great-grandmother's grandfather; Peter is Joshua's great-grandfather. So he's several generations back but, there you go - he's in Auggie's pedigree too.

LOL that's Trey's Daddy. Trey's a spitting image of his father, really. He has something like 80 champions.... He passed away a while back at the ripe old age of 14. Trey is 12 1/2 himself and not one of the earliest litters so.... I think Dillon was born in 89.

ETA 3: Here is Dillon- http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/ROM/Tradition.html

Who is Peter, I'm drawing a blank? I have an awesome old sheltie lineage book I found. It's not with me, but has a lot of the old time dogs. It came out before Dillon was showing (or maybe even born). It has his mom in there, though.

ETA: Just saw this name by Outline- Halstor's Peter Pumpkin. I guess it's safe to say there are a few very popular sires in the breed that have a lot of influence... I think they're all related too.

 

[vanillasugar]

My biggest beef with kennel clubs is there complete closed mindedness and closed stud books. Case in point, back in the early 90's a Siberian husky breeder imported a dog directly from Siberia. This person had a 4 generation pedigree from their governing body and the Canadian Kennel Club flat out refused to register the dog. Not allowing original dogs from the country of origin is ridiculous. Ok off my soapbox for now

Abby

Edit: Abby is Northrunner We both use the computer at work for Chaz and she didn't notice I was still logged in!

 

[Dekka]

how were they removed? Placed I guess?

another question: the dog in the pic is white...If the only bob tailed puppy in a litter is white...the rest are all tailed but of in standard color...you'd keep the incorrect potentially deaf or at least, deafness associated color to go on with?

did they get to the point where ALL in a litter, were bobbed?

No they did not. And they bred her to a non white factored male. So ended up with just spashily marked pups (normal boxer markings) you need 2 white genes to get all white. So a solid male will have none (and he goes on about how hard it was to find a fantastic solid stud as to win in the conf ring you need white markings.. which means one white gene) and the mom will pass one.

Therefore all the pups will be the same risk of passing on the deafness that is linked to the white gene as any other standard show ring boxer.

And no the best they can do genetically is 75% of the litter being bobed.. but that is still better than 0.

 

[Beanie]

I guess it's safe to say there are a few very popular sires in the breed that have a lot of influence... I think they're all related too.

Oh yeah...
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Percents/WeeLaird.html

These are JUST the dogs we've mentioned in this thread:

The table below gives the percent influence of the Wee Laird on each of the Shetland Sheepdogs to earn the Register of Merit, as well as the number of times the Wee Laird appeared in the pedigree. There are undoubtedly dogs alive today with the Wee Laird in their pedigrees over a million times. Note that the Wee Laird is behind all but one of all of the Shelties to earn the ROM.

Dog / Birthdate / Percent / Number
Ch Halstors Peter Pumpkin ROM / 7/13/65 / 29.72% / 771
A/C Ch Sir Joshua of Winslow ROM / 6/6/78 / 31.12% / 6,421
Ch Jade Mist Beyond Tradition ROM / 2/10/89 / 29.63% / 166,386

Dillon was born over twenty years after Peter, but he STILL has almost exactly the same percentage of Wee Laird as Peter did back in 65. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

 

[drmom777]

Wow, that is pretty crazy. I know why it is done, i understand about setting type, but I still do not approve. This is just not a sensible way to sustain sturdy, disease resistant dogs in the long haul.

 

[4dogs3cats]

So.

Dogstar has been giving me some genetics lessons as it confuses/fascinates me.

With all the outside chatter here at work, trying to focus, tell me if I have this right.

With shelties at least... a VAST majority of the gene pool is roughly made up of the same few dogs? Thats interesting/sad.

I will read up on the boxer thing when I get home, too much going on here to really focus.

I agree with the OP though, I dont think just anyone should slap a poo on the end of a breed and make 3 grand on BYB dogs, obviously.

If handled well and responsibly with the breed's best interest as the intent, than it would interest me to see the results.

OH! Lets make beagle-poos!!! Juuuust kidding!

 

[Laurelin]

Wow, that is pretty crazy. I know why it is done, i understand about setting type, but I still do not approve. This is just not a sensible way to sustain sturdy, disease resistant dogs in the long haul.

It's really crazy especially when you think about the breed to begin with and what it looks like now. I guess they REALLY thought the 'mini collie' look was desirable....

 

[Criosphynx]

So.

Dogstar has been giving me some genetics lessons as it confuses/fascinates me.

With all the outside chatter here at work, trying to focus, tell me if I have this right.

With shelties at least... a VAST majority of the gene pool is roughly made up of the same few dogs? Thats interesting/sad.

I will read up on the boxer thing when I get home, too much going on here to really focus.

I agree with the OP though, I dont think just anyone should slap a poo on the end of a breed and make 3 grand on BYB dogs, obviously.

If handled well and responsibly with the breed's best interest as the intent, than it would interest me to see the results.

OH! Lets make beagle-poos!!! Juuuust kidding!

They have to be mini beagle poos for me to buy one.

 

[drmom777]

They have to be mini beagle poos for me to buy one.

You want Mini Beagle Poo. I am sending you some. How much are you payin'?

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Dekka and I have the market cornered for whipacocks and jackacocks if any wants in

 

[Boemy]

Wow, the bobtail boxer saga is fascinating!

 

[CaliTerp07]

Dekka and I have the market cornered for whipacocks and jackacocks if any wants in

Oh the gutters my mind is going to...

 

[Dekka]

Oh the gutters my mind is going to...

Yes, and that is the target market for these dogs... It allows gutter minded people a chance to talk in a gutter way in public and not be censored. The dog would likely be a happy active little thing.. but that is not the important part.. You would be able to say things like "Oh my I love my Jackacock.. And would you like to see my whipacock?" to little old ladies without fear of getting a purse upside the head.

 

[noludoru]

Yes, and that is the target market for these dogs... It allows gutter minded people a chance to talk in a gutter way in public and not be censored. The dog would likely be a happy active little thing.. but that is not the important part.. You would be able to say things like "Oh my I love my Jackacock.. And would you like to see my whipacock?" to little old ladies without fear of getting a purse upside the head.

But.. why would we want to say those things to little old ladies? :rofl1::rofl1:

In all seriousness, this thread has been very eye-opening. I've seen the Boxer link before, but it was nice to read it again. It's fascinating what a talented, knowledgeable breeder can do.

 

[DogstarAcademy]

Yes, and that is the target market for these dogs... It allows gutter minded people a chance to talk in a gutter way in public and not be censored. The dog would likely be a happy active little thing.. but that is not the important part.. You would be able to say things like "Oh my I love my Jackacock.. And would you like to see my whipacock?" to little old ladies without fear of getting a purse upside the head.

I have to admit a TOTALLY mean laugh whenever I get the opportunity to label a cart "Shitpoo" or "bullshiht" for a grooming or training file.

 

[4dogs3cats]

Dekka and I have the market cornered for whipacocks and jackacocks if any wants in

haha I love it!

Oh and Crios.. we too can send you as much beaglepoo as you want...

Although... it wont be so Mini..

Mini can handle that one lol.

 

[xpaeanx]

I talked with the man who bred the bobtail boxers. The bobtail has become a fault in the UKC he said, but they are still shown here in the US and in Australia. He sent me a picture of his last bobtail(he said he prob won't be breeding from the bobtail line anymore). and let me tell you... she was GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Apparently she's been showing in Australia and doing AMAZING down there.

although, he said health wise, the only difference he saw was the ease of whelping with the first crosses.

He seemed a little short(this was through email, so maybe he was just busy) when I started asking him about the health differences though. He had mentioned in his first email that he was too busy to update his website bc he was dealing with heart problems in boxers, so when I commented that I was sorry his boxers where having problems and I'm actually very interested in the health differences between dogs that were outcrossed and those that are "pure" he seemed to have clammed up and that his boxers are fine, he ment boxers as a breed.

I still don't get how boxers as a breed having heart problems would keep you so busy you can't update your website?

Anyway, his bobtails are beautiful, and I really like the fact that the ones in the litter who were bobtail didn't have to be docked(I understand why docking is done, but I would prefer if dogs didn't have to be docked bc they were born "docked" so not trying to start an argument).

 

[Dekka]

Why would it be a fault.. that is silly. We alter to the dog so it looks like that.. but if it is born like that its wrong? That makes no sense at all!

 

[xpaeanx]

he said that the germans didn't like the fact that he had outcrossed, and they made a huge stink about it, claiming the dogs with bobtails had an unpredictable tempurment(i think that's was it), and they were eventually able to get them to consider it a major fault.

ETA: I emailed him at work.. I'll check the emails on monday.

 

[YodelDogs]

There's an intriguing outcross project being done by the basenji club if you want to see how it works in real life. there was a dal program too, but there's lots of politics and the resulting dogs aren't akc as of yet...

African Stock Project- http://www.basenji.org/african/project.htm

The Basenji community is thrilled about being able to bring in new dogs to expand our pitifully small gene pool. Several importations from Africa have already been done and further imports will continue to be made. Each dog must go through an evaluation process prior to obtaining AKC registration. The most recent imports are classified by the geographical area they came from. There is conflict involving purity of the dogs found in 2 of the geographical areas. The Lukuru and Avongara dogs were found in remote areas whereas the Avuvis and Jengis were found in populated areas and are, IMHO, unlikely to be pure. Several Lukuru and Avongara dogs have gone through and passed the evaluation process and will achieve AKC recognition in 2009.