Outcrossing?

xpaeanx

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#1
I'm just wondering what real breeders thoughts on outcrossing are.

I'm not talking about making some little dog, adding "poo" to the end of it's name, and selling it for 3k. I mean outcrossing done by reputable breeders to add growth to the gene pools for pure bred dogs. I bought a QH at auction once, and she came with appendix papers. My stepdad had told me, that the QH Assocation allows you to breed with TB and get appendix papers, and then if you go through a few hoops they'll give you full papers and any foals will be full QHs. I wasn't really paying attention, bc she was just a farm pony, so I'm sorry if I'm not relaying that correctly(this was quite a few years ago). But I can see how you would want to add to the gene pool, especially for breeds that have very few registered dogs. I remember when Tollers where accepted into the AKC, I was talking to a woman who showed them, and she said she was kinda sad, bc there were very few registered and she was afraid of what that would do the breed down the road.

Do you think it should be allowed? Why? Why not?
How do you think they papered?
Do you think the outcrossed pups should have to be titled before they can have "purebred" pups or be considered "purebred" themselves?
How many generations till they should be considered purebed?
If you were to outcross, how would you handle it?
 

Laurelin

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#2
I think it should be allowed where needed to breeds that make sense. ;) There are some breeds with a very narrow gene pool- I know in another thread Dekka mentioned shelties. In shelties 25% of the modern sheltie pedigree is the SAME DOG.

There's an intriguing outcross project being done by the basenji club if you want to see how it works in real life. there was a dal program too, but there's lots of politics and the resulting dogs aren't akc as of yet...

African Stock Project- http://www.basenji.org/african/project.htm
 
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#3
The Dal project might actually be more useful as far as a model for how a project might work in AKC, or the bobtail boxer project.

I think that judicious outcrossing wouldn't be a bad thing- but I think it needs to be OUT of the hands of anyone but really knowlegable, devoted breeders. (For example, crossing kleinspitz into the Poms? Makes sense- the kleins have MANY fewer health problems and could contribute some stuff that way. The other way around? The kleins have a small gene pool, yes, but they've also got REALLY low incidence of problems.) It probably needs to be in the hands of the breed clubs- not even AKC, since it's SO individual to each breed.

Will it ever happen? No clue.
 

Dekka

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#4
The bob tailed boxer is a great project to read up on. I think there will come to a point when just about all breeds will need a little out crossing now and then. If the out cross is very 'out' then you don't need much to get genetic diversity back. (the one migrant per generation rule way more than what you would need I think)

There is a certain amount of 'inbreeding' that is desirable, even for wild animals. I forget what the co efficent is, but it is pretty small. (Sewall Wright if anyone wants to look it up)
 

xpaeanx

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#5
I'll have to look the boxer and dal projects up...I'm interested to see how they were/are done...

I checked that link but it looked more like a registery....
 

xpaeanx

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#7
so I'm reading about the bobtail boxers... I must say it's VERY interesting. and in one backcrossing he had some very boxerish type dogs... The pups from the outcross are friggin cute though! There's a lot to read on that site. Thanks dek
 

Pops2

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could have done it faster if he'd done more research. several cur breeds are natural bobs, come in the same colors as boxers and most important to regaining bully type, they have been bred to bull & mastiff breeds and the cross bred back into the line since the the 1300s.
 

Dekka

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#9
He could have done it faster? Faster than 4 generations? Heck he did this in 2 generations...

This dog is 1/4 corgi.

The problem with curs is you don't know the genetics. They knew the traits they didn't want were dominant in corgi's. This is very very very important. If you want to breed out traits, it helps if they are dominant ones. With a cur you wouldn't know what coat genetics (colour and hair type) you have, etc etc. And if you are going to add new DNA let it be from a long line of health tested dogs so you minimize the chance of adding the bad in with the good.
 

drmom777

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#10
Laur, which Sheltie is it that is so predominant in the gene pool? I ask because twenty years ago I had a Sheltie in whose pedigree a very fine dog named Sir Joshua of Winslow appeared seven times.
 
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Laur, which Sheltie is it that is so predominant in the gene pool? I ask because twenty years ago I had a Sheltie in whose pedigree a very fine dog named Sir Joshua of Winslow appeared seven times.
I have a friend in shelties, so I'm going to guess it was Ch. Halstor's Peter Pumpkin. Laurelin will correct me if I'm wrong though. :)
 

HoundedByHounds

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#14
how were they removed? Placed I guess?

another question: the dog in the pic is white...If the only bob tailed puppy in a litter is white...the rest are all tailed but of in standard color...you'd keep the incorrect potentially deaf or at least, deafness associated color to go on with?

did they get to the point where ALL in a litter, were bobbed?
 

Beanie

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#15
It's pretty hard to find a sheltie who doesn't have Peter in their lines these days... a more recent dog I hear a lot about is Jade Mist Beyond Tradition (Dillon.) I don't think he's still living and he didn't produce anywhere NEAR as many champions as Peter, but he's certainly a popular face in several lines these days...

Sir Joshua of Winslow, funny enough... has Peter in his lines.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/rom/Josh.html


ETA: I was curious to see if I could find Peter in Auggie's pedigree. Joshua of Winslow is Auggie's great-grandmother's grandfather; Peter is Joshua's great-grandfather. So he's several generations back but, there you go - he's in Auggie's pedigree too.
 
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#17
how were they removed? Placed I guess?

another question: the dog in the pic is white...If the only bob tailed puppy in a litter is white...the rest are all tailed but of in standard color...you'd keep the incorrect potentially deaf or at least, deafness associated color to go on with?

did they get to the point where ALL in a litter, were bobbed?
Placed as pets, IIRC. I imagine you'd keep the white pup and just only breed it to non-flashies - theorteically, that'd give you a whole litter of flashy boxers, no? (If I remember my boxer color genetics correctly.)
 

MafiaPrincess

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#18
The second generation produced 'Jane' the white 'boxer'..

Gen 3 was from
Figures 4a, 4b, & 4c: the third generation, at ten months. Since Jane was white and lacking in head, Dr. Cattanach bred her to a male that was very typey and completely plain, Boxella’s Chief at Zenmaxkay - of Dutch/German breeding - to produce...
(it's the pics halfway down the page) Shows the pic progression all on one page actually.

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998 issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm
 
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#19
Only problem i had with that article was that everytime they said piebald all i could think of was this...






I haven't heard of dogs reffered to that way before lol But it makes sence of course.
 

Laurelin

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#20
Laur, which Sheltie is it that is so predominant in the gene pool? I ask because twenty years ago I had a Sheltie in whose pedigree a very fine dog named Sir Joshua of Winslow appeared seven times.
This guy right here- http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/WeeLaird.html

Ch Wee Laird o'Downfield



I traced Trey back to this dog a few times. I used to think it was wild to meet people online with dogs related to Trey, but with his sire used so many times.... I've met many people online with a half sibling or niece or something like that.

Here's Sir Joshua's page:

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/rom/Josh.html

Looks like he goes back to WeeLaird as well (I don't know if that's his call name or not?) I always thought it was intriguing to look at him and see how much collie he had snuck in him.
 

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