Ok, I was wondering, how come there are all these stories about dogs living to old ages, when they have not been "properly" cared for? Like dogs eating table scraps, not getting regular vet check-ups, not getting shots and all that? For instance, my mom grew up in the country. A lot of people have dogs for uses such as herding and protection. These dogs are kept outside year-round, eat regular food, havent had their shots, and yet they are happy as can be, loyal to their owners and live to old ages. Like my first dog; he was found a stray, lived outside in his doghouse, ate milk and bread with access to fresh water. He's alive and kicking, energetic, his coat is beautiful, and he is healthy. I guess its just always intrigued me how differently dogs are treated from country to country. I havent been able to think of any explanation, so i thought I'd ask an expert.lol. Any ideas?
Hmm....Mordy?
- Thread starter nedim
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This topic also interests me a lot. When I was growing up, our Boxer lived on mealie meal (type of polenta) with raw mince, ate many a COOKED bone, because back then my Mom didnt know any different, and every morning at around 10 she had a huge bowl of tea with milk, sugar and bread in it which she lapped up! She lived healthily and happily and died when she was 12, only because she was run over, as our gardener left the gate open by MISTAKE. Please no accusations, it was mistake, and I know he felt just too awful about it for words.
i've thought about that many times too, and my research has lead to several conclusions:
1. genetics play a large role. if a dog is healthy to begin with, it can withstand much more than a dog that is already prone to a lot of things due to bad breeding practices. due to closed stud books, breeding stock becomes limited and genetic diseases are more and more prevalent, especially in bloodlines of irresponsible breeders who don't do any health testing and don't eliminate unfit dogs from their breeding program rigorously. not too long ago people were culling sickly/unfit dogs and those people who bred strictly for working ability only bred the healthiest, best performing dogs anyway.
2. the commercial food available nowadays is not the same as what was available decades ago, and back then it was still pretty common to feed home prepared food too. horse meat was more widely used as commercial dog food early on, and it was canned or frozen instead of stabilized with chemical preservatives. with the human food industry expanding and more and more byproducts of this available cheap, many of the large food companies have bought up the originally smaller, independent pet food manufacturers and changed ingredient compositions. chemical stabilizers came on the market that made it easy to preserve dry foods and give them a longer shelf life.
further, dogs evolved as scavengers with a carnivorous background, which enables them to survive on a very varied diet. it is true that their teeth and digestive tract is designed to primarily digest and utilize meat, but that does not mean they need a "meat only" diet to do well. however, there's a huge difference between a diet of table scraps etc. and a food product that contains poor quality ingredients, chemical stabilizers, artificial colors and so on. if you want my personal opinion, i think any dog fed a reasonable composition of table scraps (e.g. not junk food, but meat, veggies, rice/potatoes etc.) is way better off than one eating kibble from the grocery store.
3. i'm convinced that proper exercise is critically important to a dog in order to stay healthy. a working dog is going to get that one way or another, a "couch potato", who just goes for a walk around the block for 10 minutes a day, doesn't. your average outside dog is also going to get more exercise, unless he's in a pen or tied up pretty much all the time, in which case i doubt he'll be particularly healthy or long lived.
4. over-vaccination is hard on the immune system. if a dog manages to build up antibodies from being exposed (and either getting a disease and surviving, or mounting a successful immune defense) you have the same effect as vaccination. strong, healthy dogs build up a natural defense, the immune system is constantly "updated". the weak dogs who can not mount a sufficient immune defense die - survival of the fittest. the survivorspass on their superior genes to the next generation, which goes back to point number one: good breeding practices.
last but not least - all that aside, you have the same effect in dogs that you have in people, the kind of "my grandma lived to be 100 years old and she smoked and drank and ate fried foods all her life". i guess that may also link back to good genes, but you'll never know what a healthier lifestyle would have brought about.
1. genetics play a large role. if a dog is healthy to begin with, it can withstand much more than a dog that is already prone to a lot of things due to bad breeding practices. due to closed stud books, breeding stock becomes limited and genetic diseases are more and more prevalent, especially in bloodlines of irresponsible breeders who don't do any health testing and don't eliminate unfit dogs from their breeding program rigorously. not too long ago people were culling sickly/unfit dogs and those people who bred strictly for working ability only bred the healthiest, best performing dogs anyway.
2. the commercial food available nowadays is not the same as what was available decades ago, and back then it was still pretty common to feed home prepared food too. horse meat was more widely used as commercial dog food early on, and it was canned or frozen instead of stabilized with chemical preservatives. with the human food industry expanding and more and more byproducts of this available cheap, many of the large food companies have bought up the originally smaller, independent pet food manufacturers and changed ingredient compositions. chemical stabilizers came on the market that made it easy to preserve dry foods and give them a longer shelf life.
further, dogs evolved as scavengers with a carnivorous background, which enables them to survive on a very varied diet. it is true that their teeth and digestive tract is designed to primarily digest and utilize meat, but that does not mean they need a "meat only" diet to do well. however, there's a huge difference between a diet of table scraps etc. and a food product that contains poor quality ingredients, chemical stabilizers, artificial colors and so on. if you want my personal opinion, i think any dog fed a reasonable composition of table scraps (e.g. not junk food, but meat, veggies, rice/potatoes etc.) is way better off than one eating kibble from the grocery store.
3. i'm convinced that proper exercise is critically important to a dog in order to stay healthy. a working dog is going to get that one way or another, a "couch potato", who just goes for a walk around the block for 10 minutes a day, doesn't. your average outside dog is also going to get more exercise, unless he's in a pen or tied up pretty much all the time, in which case i doubt he'll be particularly healthy or long lived.
4. over-vaccination is hard on the immune system. if a dog manages to build up antibodies from being exposed (and either getting a disease and surviving, or mounting a successful immune defense) you have the same effect as vaccination. strong, healthy dogs build up a natural defense, the immune system is constantly "updated". the weak dogs who can not mount a sufficient immune defense die - survival of the fittest. the survivorspass on their superior genes to the next generation, which goes back to point number one: good breeding practices.
last but not least - all that aside, you have the same effect in dogs that you have in people, the kind of "my grandma lived to be 100 years old and she smoked and drank and ate fried foods all her life". i guess that may also link back to good genes, but you'll never know what a healthier lifestyle would have brought about.
1.) The "country" dogs bred with everything.lol. I'm convinced they could do a racoon if willing.lol. So, I dont know about the genetic make-up, but farmers wont generally pay a lot of money-if any-for a dog. Mines was a mutt that got seperated from his mum.
2.) I'm not talking decades ago, I'm talking a few years ago.
3.)I agree 150% with you there
4.)If this is so, then why do we do it, and why is it of such importance to pump your dog full of "vacines" then?
I'm sorry if i sound rude or pushy, i'm not trying to.It's just that this topic intrigues me greatly and I want to learn more.
2.) I'm not talking decades ago, I'm talking a few years ago.
3.)I agree 150% with you there
4.)If this is so, then why do we do it, and why is it of such importance to pump your dog full of "vacines" then?
I'm sorry if i sound rude or pushy, i'm not trying to.It's just that this topic intrigues me greatly and I want to learn more.
I do think that the more 'tampering' a breed has had - the farther away it gets from its ancient origins - the more susceptible it is to diseases, poor food, etc. There are always aberrations one way or another, but as Mordy pointed out, the old working dogs had some natural selection working in their favor.
I think the ones less tampered with tend to have better natural instincts as far as staying away from things that are detrimental too. Shiva and Kharma won't drink the water from the tap at the store (I TOLD Charley it was bad, but he didn't believe me
). Kharma won't eat McDonald's food . . . She spit out the dog food my Mom feeds her Rat Terrier . . . (Bimmer won't touch it either, lol!)
I think the ones less tampered with tend to have better natural instincts as far as staying away from things that are detrimental too. Shiva and Kharma won't drink the water from the tap at the store (I TOLD Charley it was bad, but he didn't believe me
). Kharma won't eat McDonald's food . . . She spit out the dog food my Mom feeds her Rat Terrier . . . (Bimmer won't touch it either, lol!)
Renee750il said:
I do think that the more 'tampering' a breed has had - the farther away it gets from its ancient origins - the more susceptible it is to diseases, poor food, etc. There are always aberrations one way or another, but as Mordy pointed out, the old working dogs had some natural selection working in their favor.
I think the ones less tampered with tend to have better natural instincts as far as staying away from things that are detrimental too. Shiva and Kharma won't drink the water from the tap at the store (I TOLD Charley it was bad, but he didn't believe me ). Kharma won't eat McDonald's food . . . She spit out the dog food my Mom feeds her Rat Terrier . . . (Bimmer won't touch it either, lol!)
I think the ones less tampered with tend to have better natural instincts as far as staying away from things that are detrimental too. Shiva and Kharma won't drink the water from the tap at the store (I TOLD Charley it was bad, but he didn't believe me
). Kharma won't eat McDonald's food . . . She spit out the dog food my Mom feeds her Rat Terrier . . . (Bimmer won't touch it either, lol!)
If all this tampering is so bad, why do we do it? Self-reassurance?
I agree with Mordy 100% on this issue. I also agree that a dog fed the "healthy" table scraps do better from the added variety in their diet. I just don't see a digestive system like that of a dog's doing well long term on the exact same thing to eat everyday, such as kibble and commercial pet foods. The dog was made to be an opportunistic feeder and scavenger. Those farm dogs or dogs in which you describe Nedim, are probably healthier because of the fact they can hunt vermin and have a variety of scraps fed to them more like their natural diet. You speak too of the dogs being "mixed breeds" i.e. 1/2 wolf x 1/2 shepard. I will argue until the day I die that non-purebred dogs are just healthier because of their wider gene selection. This topic is why I try to feed my dogs table scraps from dinner every night.
showpug said:
I agree with Mordy 100% on this issue. I also agree that a dog fed the "healthy" table scraps do better from the added variety in their diet. I just don't see a digestive system like that of a dog's doing well long term on the exact same thing to eat everyday, such as kibble and commercial pet foods. The dog was made to be an opportunistic feeder and scavenger. Those farm dogs or dogs in which you describe Nedim, are probably healthier because of the fact they can hunt vermin and have a variety of scraps fed to them more like their natural diet. You speak too of the dogs being "mixed breeds" i.e. 1/2 wolf x 1/2 shepard. I will argue until the day I die that non-purebred dogs are just healthier because of their wider gene selection. This topic is why I try to feed my dogs table scraps from dinner every night.
Nedim, not all commercial foods are bad. I was just saying that adding some human food gives a dog much needed variety to their diet. My dogs' main staple is Innova EVO, but I try to share whatever meat/vegetables we eat for dinner with the dogs. The vaccination issue is a different story. I agree that dogs are over-vaccinated and you have to look at the fact that the people pushing constant vaccination boosters are those that profit off of them the most - the vets and pharmaceutical companies. I think the majority of dogs would live long and healthy lives without any vaccinations.