High Energy Dogs - Herders vs Sporting

[Elrohwen]

I was responding specifically to the quoted post's point about drive being the common factor. I agree but "drive" can be such a generic term that I wanted to be more specific about where I feel the similarities lie.

But hey I'm just one perspective. And I know what I like to work with so that's the important thing, right?

Ahh, I get it. Yes, "drive" is about as non-specific as "high energy". There could be a whole thread on that as well. The Sch people especially have a whole vocabulary for drive that I find fascinating.

And knowing what you like is the most important part. I don't think I've worked with enough different types of dogs to know 100% what I like, but I'm getting there.

 

[yv0nne]

I live with a Vizsla and train a Border in agility ..herders tend to be SO.FOCUSED. on you that they drain their energy faster& can relax after they've had mental/ physical stimulation as long as you're settled. The second you move, they do as well.

My Vizsla has less intense focus so she can GOGOGO cause everything with her is very casual ..run at high speed for hours? Sure! The Border needs to relax after that, whereas Penn won't stop bothering him to keep playing with her. It boils down to, I think, a difference in focus. The Border wants to do what you ask whereas Penn will do what you ask as long as there isn't something more exciting anywhere in the immediate environment or at a distance.

I'm sure by this point someone else already explained it better than I can aha

 

[Linds]

I live with a Vizsla and train a Border in agility ..herders tend to be SO.FOCUSED. on you that they drain their energy faster& can relax after they've had mental/ physical stimulation as long as you're settled. The second you move, they do as well.

My Vizsla has less intense focus so she can GOGOGO cause everything with her is very casual ..run at high speed for hours? Sure! The Border needs to relax after that, whereas Penn won't stop bothering him to keep playing with her. It boils down to, I think, a difference in focus. The Border wants to do what you ask whereas Penn will do what you ask as long as there isn't something more exciting anywhere in the immediate environment or at a distance.

I'm sure by this point someone else already explained it better than I can aha

This was just put so perfectly. I've been trying to reply to this thread all day but couldn't word it right.

The Vizsla's we get at my dog park are interesting to me because we get a ton of them and it's neat comparing them to the Koolies and how they interact with their owners and I gotta say your description just fits.

That being said, there are so many small differences between breed groups, breeds, types and lines that it's hard to say anything without falling into huge generalizations.

On the subject of what high energy means, I typically use that to mean that the dog/breed needs consistent mental and/or physical work to thrive. I don't associate it with drive but rather just exercise for the body and mind to hopefully allow them to settle or be content.

 

[Aleron]

There's a lot of variety in the breeds within both of those groups, so what is true for some isn't true for others. Overall, I think herders tend to be better suited for being good house dogs. Most of the hunting breeds were not traditionally kept as house dogs or looked at as family pets. The herders may or may not have been house dogs but most were more family oriented, having to be loose on the farm with the shepherd, kids, etc. I think most are better able to chill in the house, at younger ages than most sporting breeds. IME Sporting breeds also are more prone to being destructive and having an extended adolescence. But again, that doesn't apply to all herders or all sporting dogs.

As for the ability to hold a stay with distraction, that really is all about training. I know a lot of BCs who couldn't hold a stay while their owner taught class but those dogs aren't trained to that level and that sort of control is never expected from them. But if you (general) want your dog to be able to do that, it is an achievable training goal, unless there's a safety reason to not do it of course. Yes some dogs are harder to build reliability. Some dogs find certain aspects of staying during class more distracting. And like anything, dogs who have a history of breaking their stay over and over and over are going to be much harder to get to that point of reliability. savvy used to lose his mind at the sight of a person on a bike. A couple weeks ago I was able to put him in a downstay while geese (another super exciting distraction) where to one side of him in a pond and people were riding bikes on a trail to the other side. I also practice downstays with him in the Flyball lane. That is extremely hard and would be a long time before he was totally reliable to be left in that scenario but he will hold his hold (while digging his claws into the mat) until I grab his harness and say "ready?!". It's not because he doesn't find those things exciting or because he isn't prone to losing his mind over things that are exciting but because I've put a lot of work into these sorts of things.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

The awesomeness of retriever humor... you have to love them.

[YOUTUBE]QEK8LS_0Gqk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Toller_08]

Well, I can't really answer based on living experiences as I think I have one of the most easy, laid back Tollers in the world and my supposed "super high energy" Aussie I find really easy energy wise as well haha. And my Border Collie mix prior was much the same as Journey in a lot of ways.

However, the main differences I've noticed between my two individuals of these two breeds is that:

My Toller is frantic in her energy. She's busy and all over the place at once and has a hard time selecting an activity I guess. When she gets in an energetic mood, she just wants to do SOMETHING but doesn't know what. So she skitters and paces and just does things frantically. Or she'll just start looking for toys and drop them all in my lap and sit there and stare. Once she's given an activity, she's fine. She's just not very good at thinking things through smoothly haha. Even training her she gets kind of frantic and busy minded.

My Aussie, and my Border Collie mix prior, both are/were high energy dogs with amazing off switches. And their first goal when they're feeling energetic is to go find a toy, methodically place it beside me, and wait for me to say something or indicate that either we are or are not playing. Journey and Tango both seem/ed much more level headed and focused I guess than Dance. Energetic but without the franticness. That said, I find that they are/were also much more easily overstimulated than Dance is. My herding types are/were also much more people pleasing than Dance. Dance is an "I want to do this and I want to do it my way so there better be something in it for me" dog and my herding types just want to please and try super hard not to frustrate anyone.

In general, when I am around other retrievers, I find that they are much more in your face with energy and without a real goal (unless there is something retrievable around) whereas herders usually seem to have a goal of what they want in mind. If that makes sense. Spaniels and Pointers I can't really comment on because I don't have enough personal experience with either.

I don't know if there really is a good way to explain it. And all dogs are going to be different too. Also, different people have different ways of viewing things too. As an example: I don't like 'in your face' dogs, which I find most sporting dogs to be, but people could describe Journey as a super in your face dog too, and she is, but there is just something I find easier about her energy and the way she is in comparison with most sporting breeds for me.

 

[*blackrose]

I grew up with retrievers and currently own Abrams, so they are what I know. And saying that, whatever kind of energy they have, don't mind it!

I think...exuberant is the best way to put it. Everything they do, they do with ENTHUSIASM. They don't over analyze, they don't ponder, they just barrel in without a second thought.

When Chloe (generic Collie mix) was a puppy, her actions had purpose. She would get overstimulated at times and get over threshold which would lead to reactive biting, but her energy always had a goal.

With Abrams, he's just all like, "I'M RUNNING BECAUSE IT IS FUN AND I LOVE TO RUN BECAUSE LIFE IS AWESOME AND THERE MAY BE FOOD AT SOME POINT. *crashes into the wall*"

But, he's able to focus and able to calm down. He's a dumb adolescent boy right now so sometimes focusing is HARD, but he does focus. There is a difference in him focusing than Chloe focusing. When he focuses, it is almost like I can hear the wheels turning in his head and it is taking so much concentration. With Chloe, she was more...intense?
Almost like a normal person in comparison to an engineer. Not that the normal person is stupid, an engineer's brain just works a different way. (I can say this because Michael is an engineer. I can look at the decorative beams of a building or watch Chitti Chitti Bang Bang and say, "Oh, how pretty!" or "Cool, a flying car!" while the only thing going through his mind is, "THESE MAKE NO SENSE!! WHY ARE THEY THERE?!?!" and "THIS IS ILLOGICAL AND COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAPPEN. HOW CAN THEY FLY AND CONTROL THEIR CAR WITH A STEERING WHEEL?!?!")

 

[Elrohwen]

Really great responses since I left last night. I love reading everyone's personal experiences and I'm glad a few more sporter people chimed in!

I agree with a lot of the sporting dog observations, from having a "what's in it for me?" attitude and being easily distracted by the environment. Also the general excitement for life and persistence in barreling through whatever is in their way (which I kind of enjoy). When I was picking out a sporting dog breed, I was sure to find one that was known as a good house dog. I looked seriously at brittanies for a while, but so many kennels kept dogs outside, which is fine if you're a hunter and that's what you want to do, but I want to know my future puppy isn't going to be a terror in the house. Most breeders will tell you Welshies aren't kennel dogs and need to be in the house with their people, so I thought that was a good sign. So far it has worked out really well and Watson is great in the house except for his annoying period each night at 8 (which is generally a puppy/young dog thing anyway). On the weekends he's content to sleep for the entire day, but he's always ready to be up and doing something if that's what you want.

The only herder I know well is a mix (probably ACD), but he has that intense focus. Sometimes I love it and I want to steal him and train him for all of the things. Other times, he drives me nuts and I wish he would stop staring at us and actually take a nap. He settles, but his settling is still wound up tight and ready to spring. When Watson takes a nap, he's actually relaxed. I wouldn't mind one of each I think, if I could find the right herding breed/dog, but I do love the sweet natures of most sporting dogs, even when they're in your face. Plus Watson is starting to prove to me that he can focus and he does like to work, even if it's taken a little more work on my end than someone with a herding breed.

 

[Shai]

I'm starting to think that either there is an even bigger difference between the pointer/vizsla-type breeds and retrievers then I thought or else Mira is secretly a herder in disguise. A Birdy Herder.

 

[Psyfalcon]

There is some overlap.

I thought there was some collie and flat coat mixing too?


To me, herding breeds tend to be on. They are bred to react suddenly. Yes, they're great at listening, but they need to react to very subtle clues from the stock.

Sporters tend to be a bit less handler aware, but they are bred to cover ground, and follow their nose. They're not necessarily looking or thinking about everything like some herders do. I think they have a better filter: "Is it a bird/squirrel/tennis ball?" Yes: chase, No: ignore.

It can turn into GOGOGO. I mean such a big part of retriever and spaniel training is STOP!

 

[crazedACD]

I'm starting to think that either there is an even bigger difference between the pointer/vizsla-type breeds and retrievers then I thought or else Mira is secretly a herder in disguise. A Birdy Herder.

I believe so, yes.

Skye is pretty spot on with the descriptions of pointer/vizsla types in this thread. I would say she is more hyper/more energetic than my herders, but maybe not...it is almost more misguided, in your face energy. I guess she is less 'trained' too though, I let her get away with more, or she tries to take advantage more. It's just like with Romeo...I can redirect his focus easily on say, a ball, or on me. Skye, she doesn't consider what I want or focus on me. She has gotten better, but it's not natural like with Romeo. She tests me way, way more. "Stay" is easy for my herders. Even for the puppy, she is getting it. I give them clear rules, and they follow them, and that's that. I give Skye clear rules, and she says well, what if I do this? And what will you do if I do that?

Hanging out in the house...Skye usually picks a spot and stays there. Usually in my bed. She sleeps heavily, and will only jump up if it's really time to go out or something. Romeo moves around...he lays on the dog bed, then gets up and sits next to me, then moves to the bed, etc. He jumps up if I get up. He isn't usually full out sleeping either, he just chills and watches me, he's kind of a creeper.

It's hard for me to compare breeds though, I do believe some of it is individual personalities and upbringing.

 

[MericoX]

Just wanted to pop in and say.... TERRIERS RULE!!! *scurries away*

 

[Muttkip]

Hounds that is all!