High Energy Dogs - Herders vs Sporting

[AdrianneIsabel]

I haven't seen a ton of differences for energy in herding dogs v. sporting dogs. I have some labs at work that can go faster and harderthan most herding dogs, but they flop faster. As if they're built for a moderately paced stamina, not long term excessive sprints.

I see a lot of spazzy, busy, frantic, high energy dogs that lack clarity be it from, genetics or rearing, and it doesn't seem to happen more or less in herding or sporting, unfortunately.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

A girl I know who bred aforementioned crazy BC had that dogs mother in a down stay next to a busy agility ring off leash last weekend.

I can't even get Mia to stay for a few seconds. Lol.

To me that's not a sign of high energy, though, the ability or inability to down stay through a stimulating environment. It may however be a sign of clarity, the ability to think straight and "stay in touch with reality" when stimulated or overstimulated.


(I might just be echoing you, I don't know if that's the point you were making)

 

[Oko]

The biggest difference I see between Wesley and Feist is Wesley will run and run and run for the sheer joy of running , and Feist only really wants to if there is a reason to , but at 11 weeks old she will already go go go if there is a purpose to it. Different energies. Feist tires herself out quicker when we do mental stuff too, she's just thinking so hard so fast. Different energies. They both settle really nicely.

 

[PWCorgi]

Feist tires herself out quicker when we do mental stuff too, she's just thinking so hard so fast. Different energies.

I think this is where Siri and Frodo differ a lot as well. Frodo is a thinker, you can see the wheels turning in his head. Siri flails and if nothing works she gets pissed and leaves. It takes a lot of work for me to get through the flails to an actual session where her brain is used. She excels when she can be moving and learning, stationary exercises where it's all brain thinking frustrate her.

I think it's easiest to see when they play with food toys. Frodo sits there and figures them out, slow and methodical. Siri tries to destroy it, fast and hard.

 

[Sekah]

I can leave Cohen in a down-stay on a mat while I teach an agility class.

Cohen, for example, has tremendous focus and that focus can last all day. At home, if she thinks there's opportunity for interaction/reinforcement, she'll stare at me from across the room for hours. I often have to verbally cue her to her bed, or to relax. If I shift butt cheeks, she'll leap up, ready to go. I find that it takes next to nothing for her to go from 0 to hyperhyperhyper but she's almost always in work mode with focus on me. She's not one to play independently, ever.

A lot of her behaviour is because of how I deal with her, for better or worse. She's much more calm around my husband.

It's difficult to get her to sleep at events. As a result, she'll get tired and manic, but at no point will she ever refuse to work. Her work ethic astounds me. Her food drive is really high, and her play/toy drive is moderate (probably because I never fostered it properly when she was young).

To speak in very broad terms, the higher energy sporting dogs I know tend to look to their environment more for reinforcement, and the herders to their people.

 

[Laurelin]

To me that's not a sign of high energy, though, the ability or inability to down stay through a stimulating environment. It may however be a sign of clarity, the ability to think straight and "stay in touch with reality" when stimulated or overstimulated.


(I might just be echoing you, I don't know if that's the point you were making)

I was mostly just lamenting that that will never happen with Mia. Summer could with work I think. Mia... Nope. Staying is booooooring.

 

[Laurelin]

As far as stayin Mia does well if you ask her to leave food or a toy. Then she's focused and will hold that stay a long time. But just ask her to stay? Boooring. See ya later.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

To speak in very broad terms, the higher energy sporting dogs I know tend to look to their environment more for reinforcement, and the herders to their people.

I tease that labs (specifically those I work with) ask you what you can do for them while most herders as you what they can do for you. Both equally motivated but one is more "in it for themselves" than the other.

 

[meepitsmeagan]

It guess it makes sense. Herders use pressure to move sheep/cattle away from them. Sporting dogs plow into heavy cover and need to be comfortable with that physical contact.

IMO, this depends on the herder breed you are looking at. An ACD should not be soft and should bust through cover like nobody's business to drive out a hiding cow. The pressure also differs between breeds. ACD's and Aussies are bred to drive whereas BC's (pretty sure Shelties as well) are bred to gather. Iirc, Koolies, 'houlas, and Kelpies have a header herding style. ETA: This obviously all moves the cattle/sheep, but it's done differently. Whether that was a necessary point or not, I guess I don't know. Lol.

I tease that labs (specifically those I work with) ask you what you can do for them while most herders as you what they can do for you. Both equally motivated but one is more "in it for themselves" than the other.

^ I totally agree with this. I've seen some great sporting dogs with great drive who work for their person just because they love them.. herders will do that to a point, but tend to ask more questions. For example, if Rider is chasing a squirrel and I call him, he will slow down and look back, then keep running. If I call him a second time shortly after that sequence of events is done, he will turn on a dime and run back to me. The first time I call, Squirrel>Mom in terms of reward. Second time I call, Mom>Squirrel in reward. Kind of like a, "Well, I guess I HAVE to do this because it's expected of me and bonus that mom will be happy about it and I get to vault off her stomach." I think with a sporting dog they are either going to do it, or they aren't.

 

[Laurelin]

I tease that labs (specifically those I work with) ask you what you can do for them while most herders as you what they can do for you. Both equally motivated but one is more "in it for themselves" than the other.

That's like the difference between my two dogs

Summer: oh okay you want me over here and stay? Ok I got that. What if I play dead? Okay? Wouldn't that be better? Ok no, just stay? Got that. Not moving. Being good dog over here. Look at me being good dog! Yay Summer!

Mia: wait what? Stay? But but but.... FINE. Oh but what if I just move a little bit? No? Sigh fine. Are you really paying attention? I'm getting up this is boring. Stay? Ugh grumble grumble. *tests to see if in paying attention or will let her get away with it*. Dammit she caught me.

Mia always needs something in return.

 

[Shai]

There is a 3-way, maybe even 4-way split in popular retriever breeds: work, bench, pet. Work can be further split into sport (field trials) and genuine hunting.

As a rule, the bench dogs are lower key and less physically suited to long exertion. The pet dogs tend to have the major derp factor. The working dogs on the other hand tend to be workaholics with an obsessive focus on their job who need both physical and mental outlets.

The field trial dogs are usually going to be the highest keyed dogs as flash and the ability to work through pressure are selected for as well as all the other normal traits. Hunting dogs should be a little less high, steadier, more able to conserve energy for the long haul.

Breeds that haven't split (and we do have several with fairly minimal split) take a middle road, in general.

In my experience a good real-working retriever and a good working herder (like a BC) resemble each other more in terms of energy type than they resemble the stereotypical bench/pet-type dogs of their own breeds. Same with the higher-strung sporting bred dogs. Sure, in general the herders are naturally more spatially aware whereas the gundogs naturally are more physical and apt to take the direct path despite obstacles that the herders may stop to think about, but I do think there are more similarities than differences.

 

[Elrohwen]

In my experience a good real-working retriever and a good working herder (like a BC) resemble each other more in terms of energy type than they resemble the stereotypical bench/pet-type dogs of their own breeds.

I would guess that it's the level of drive that is causing the similarities, no matter what the dog's actual energy level is. A herding dog who is driven to do something, especially something with his handler, is going to act similar to a sporting do who is also driven to do some sort of work.

 

[release the hounds]

When I think high energy, I think nervous energy. Doesn't matter if it's lab, GSP or GSD.

 

[Shai]

When I think high energy, I think nervous energy. Doesn't matter if it's lab, GSP or GSD.

Probably 90% of the time when someone tells me a dog is high energy the dog is actually busy and unfocused.

The rest is a mix of moves-fast or can work for long stretches of time with little/no break.

 

[Shai]

I would guess that it's the level of drive that is causing the similarities, no matter what the dog's actual energy level is. A herding dog who is driven to do something, especially something with his handler, is going to act similar to a sporting do who is also driven to do some sort of work.

Drive, focus, multiple high value reinforcement, ability to think while in drive, environmental stability, likelihood of going over threshold, etc. All can come more or less naturally.

 

[Elrohwen]

Drive, focus, multiple high value reinforcement, ability to think while in drive, environmental stability, likelihood of going over threshold, etc. All can come more or less naturally.

Right, but I don't think those are the same as being "high energy" the way people usually mean it. Or maybe they are. I guess that's why I asked the question.

I guess I just hear "so-and-so breed is really high energy and not for the first time owner". I'm interested in what people mean when they say that. I do think sometimes people mean that the dog is actually high drive, which would be hard for a first time owner. I think other times they just mean that the dog needs a lot of stimulation in general, of any kind, which can be hard to handle. And other times they mean the dog is busy as heck no matter what stimulation you give it (the nervous energy mentioned).

Personally, I tend to think of "high energy" as a dog who needs a lot of stimulation, whether it's physical or mental, and it seems that some breeds (groups?) need more of one vs the other to stay balanced. Either way, they typically aren't dogs who will stand for being ignored or expected to hang around and entertain themselves for long. That's just my definition though, so it's interesting to see how others define it.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I call that high maintenance, prone to being destructive if not given a healthy outlet.

I have frantic, screamy, pacers at work who resort to stealing and shredding things when bored. The tricky part is that energy does not always equal usable drive nor do those dogs tend to be clear and relaxed making for pleasant working partners. You can find both but a lot of the time you will not. Energy =/= Drive =/= A good sport/working dog.

FWIW you're right, most DO mean high energy means lots of energy, we don't all have the same vocab though and we definitely have our own preconceived notions when we hear "high energy" which are each swayed by our experiences. As a trainer I see more unfocused and anxious dogs with "high energy" as a label so it's swayed my opinion.

 

[Shai]

Yeah inconsistencies in terms of language and perspective makes these conversations hard. I like to think if we were all looking at one dog we'd have a similar impression even of the words we used were different.

 

[Elrohwen]

Yeah inconsistencies in terms of language and perspective makes these conversations hard. I like to think if we were all looking at one dog we'd have a similar impression even of the words we used were different.

That's why I find it a fun discussion

I do think "high energy" as a term is non-specific and can be confusing to people trying to research breeds or types of dogs. I hear it for almost any breed, but I don't think it really describes any specific behavior very well.

 

[Shai]

Right, but I don't think those are the same as being "high energy" the way people usually mean it. Or maybe they are. I guess that's why I asked the question.

I was responding specifically to the quoted post's point about drive being the common factor. I agree but "drive" can be such a generic term that I wanted to be more specific about where I feel the similarities lie.

But hey I'm just one perspective. And I know what I like to work with so that's the important thing, right?