Guess what I have....

[RD]

That's like saying you educate on the difference between a BC and a Border Collie...

.. What? You don't realize that the border collie is also a "type" as well as a breed, and a lot of dogs who may not be pedigreed, registered border collies are still called border collies because they have a similar working style. There is a definite difference between the show/sport world's idea of the border collie and the working farmer's idea of the border collie. And yes, I believe the same thing applies to pit bulls and pit bull types.

Also, why is it wrong to ban a breed entirely but not wrong to say that a dog isn't entitled to behave like a dog, that a dog isn't allowed to have fears or be uncomfortable with something because it's a specific breed? That if a pit-type dog is shy it should get a bullet, but if a GSD or a Papillon or a Sheltie is shy it's fine? I am not understanding this at all. Don't APBT enthusiasts work to REDUCE breed discrimination?

Shy dogs can be worked with, easily, and frankly I'd much rather deal with a shy dog in need of more confidence and positive experiences than deal with a dog whose first response to anything unusual is aggression. I think it's also safer for the general public and the average dog owner to deal with a shy/fearful dog whose first response is to avoid, rather than confront.

I can understand the position that APBT enthusiasts are in, and I can understand the discouragement you all feel when you hear of a pit-type dog with a less-than-ideal temperament, but to say that a dog needs to be killed for not being "perfect" is ridiculous. EVERY dog has its limit, every dog has its threshold, even the ones that people call "perfect". You might as well put a bullet in the heads of each of your dogs then, too, because I'm pretty sure none of them are perfect either.

Seriously, someone shares pictures of an adorable dog that's briefly come into her life, and all you have to contribute is implications that it should be killed for being shy. Lovely.

 

[Laurelin]

I've met some papillons that are 20 lbs or more with severe overbites and little to no coat, wrong head type, and I could go on. The dogs are still papillons, just not bred to the breed standard. I don't understand this insistence that a dog that is not 100% to the ADBA APBT breed standard can not be called a pit bull.

And yeah I definitely agree that this is the wrong thread to say these things. Someone's just trying to share a picture for crying out loud!

 

[Saeleofu]

Me, I out grew those fantastical theories years ago. I'd rather judge my dogs by their character as an individual and not as a lynchpin for an entire movement.

:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

[stafinois]

I've met some papillons that are 20 lbs or more with severe overbites and little to no coat, wrong head type, and I could go on. The dogs are still papillons, just not bred to the breed standard. I don't understand this insistence that a dog that is not 100% to the ADBA APBT breed standard can not be called a pit bull.

And yeah I definitely agree that this is the wrong thread to say these things. Someone's just trying to share a picture for crying out loud!

It's not that they are out of standard, many times they just aren't Pit Bulls. They have things like longer coats, thicker tails, longer upper arms than are found in the breed, etc.

If Shelties and Papillons were suddenly making headlines for dangerous behavior, and many of the dogs being pointed out were shorthaired and liver pigmented, how would you feel?

 

[Laurelin]

I understand that but I think it's apples and oranges to what's going on here.

 

[crazedACD]

Doesn't pit mix cover both sides of the argument, here?

 

[PWCorgi]

It's a *very* common mindset that any perceivably unstable pit bull (or looks there of) should be put down to prevent allowing ammunition to the BSL backers. Be it overtly shy, normal dog guarding, or any other decided-by-the-moment extreme. This mentality is based off the fable of APBT of the past were perfect and killed if they maintained any form of substandard temperament. The truth is all dog breeds maintain their flaws and flukes and it's upon each owner to judge their dog, or kennel club/governing body if the dog is breeding, it should not be up for discussion by outsiders unless your dog is proving to be the infamous media ammo that we all fear.

Me, I out grew those fantastical theories years ago. I'd rather judge my dogs by their character as an individual and not as a lynchpin for an entire movement.

Where is the love button?!

 

[Renee750il]

I'd rather judge my dogs by their character as an individual and not as a lynchpin for an entire movement.

This. And I'd far rather the onus be put on me to be a responsible owner and help my APBT represent all that's best in the APBT breed AND the Pitbull type rather than lay the burden on her. She deserves to get to be a happy, well loved little dog -- like this little foster dog does.

She does her best to be a good girl and the fault doesn't lie with the dogs anyway, the fault lies with the humans. Humans created the trouble, not the dogs. We've done the irresponsible breeding and the irresponsible owning and the irresponsible fear mongering. Not the dogs.

 

[PWCorgi]

If a dog, pit or otherwise, has a genuine mental issue that makes it severely unstable or a threat to society, I am all for euthanizing the dog if the owner can't keep the dog and the general public safe.

If a dog has a minor issue like shyness or mild reactivity I see no reason to head straight to the vets office.

When I was living in Pennsylvania I sat in on an evaluation for a pit bull that was wired wrong. REALLY wrong. He was set up in a room, cable tied to a pillar, and for the first 15-20 minutes he was fine. Behaviorist was in a chair, talking to the owners and throwing the dog treats. Dog was fine. Then she moved her foot and the dog went off. Just lost it. First time I've been faced with a dog that truly wanted to take a piece out of me or anyone he could get close to. And he just could not calm himself down, it was like he was just stuck in this aggression mode, and he didn't stop until he was removed from the facility. Euthanasia was recommended for this dog, it was heartbreaking because his owners loved him so much, but he was a threat to the general public. I feel like the dogs that are being talked about in this thread, dogs having fear issues, etc are such a far cry from what this dog was that the two shouldn't even be placed in the same scenario.

 

[Tahla9999]

It's a *very* common mindset that any perceivably unstable pit bull (or looks there of) should be put down to prevent allowing ammunition to the BSL backers. Be it overtly shy, normal dog guarding, or any other decided-by-the-moment extreme. This mentality is based off the fable of APBT of the past were perfect and killed if they maintained any form of substandard temperament. The truth is all dog breeds maintain their flaws and flukes and it's upon each owner to judge their dog, or kennel club/governing body if the dog is breeding, it should not be up for discussion by outsiders unless your dog is proving to be the infamous media ammo that we all fear.

Me, I out grew those fantastical theories years ago. I'd rather judge my dogs by their character as an individual and not as a lynchpin for an entire movement.

You know, there is a lot of things that I want to say right now that would just get me ban, so I'm just going to agree with this post. I grew out of those theories as well and can really relate.

My dog is far from the perfect bulldog. He trust dog owners, people with dogs, than he trust the average person on the street. With a dog, he would happily come up to you. Without one, if you come to him, he would try to avoid you. He is not bulldog confident. He has no aggression problems at all, and to say he deserves a bullet for his shyness... :madgo:

 

[Renee750il]

I have a few friends who have had to make the terrible decision to euth a dog because there was just something so wrong it was unfixable and the dog's life was becoming untenable. It was a horrible, heart shattering decision that will never stop hurting for each of them.

 

[crazedACD]

When I was living in Pennsylvania I sat in on an evaluation for a pit bull that was wired wrong. REALLY wrong. He was set up in a room, cable tied to a pillar, and for the first 15-20 minutes he was fine. Behaviorist was in a chair, talking to the owners and throwing the dog treats. Dog was fine. Then she moved her foot and the dog went off. Just lost it. First time I've been faced with a dog that truly wanted to take a piece out of me or anyone he could get close to. And he just could not calm himself down, it was like he was just stuck in this aggression mode, and he didn't stop until he was removed from the facility. Euthanasia was recommended for this dog, it was heartbreaking because his owners loved him so much, but he was a threat to the general public. I feel like the dogs that are being talked about in this thread, dogs having fear issues, etc are such a far cry from what this dog was that the two shouldn't even be placed in the same scenario.

I swear I'm not stalking you tonight

The pit mix I had, had similar reactions. He was off, and definitely in a different category than 'shy' or nervous dogs. He had incredibly fearful behavior that he could not control and was manifested via aggression and biting. It wasn't about what he would do in certain situations, it was ALL situations. Obviously this dog is fine in controlled situations, and the owners are aware that is a manageable issue and I see no problem with that.

 

[Teal]

I don't have bully breeds, but I do understand not risking it with severe issues... IMO that's different than manageable issues in the right hands...

To say that ANY dog thats not "PERFECT" deserves a bullet, I just can't go along with... My heart gets in the way...

Most of the dogs here I heard about being "problems" here were not rescues being handled by people with a clue... And properly managed... but idiots who bought pups from BYB and thought they were tough or Ceasar wannabe's... Then stuck the dog on a chain and ignored it...

I will bow out now because admittedly this is not "my" breed... But I just can't wrap my head around killing every non perfect dog...

I don't expect anyone to agree with my point of view. It's MY point of view - If you don't agree with it, that's all fine and dandy... I don't mind

Zero tolerance? Meaning every dog that is shy/fearful should be euthanized or what? (curious)

I think my girl is the bomb - despite her shy/fearful tendencies

I personally believe so, yes. And I mean dogs who are constantly shy/fearful.. not dogs who may be shy/fearful when presented with something new, but then quickly come out of it (as in, within seconds) when it isn't a threat. Dogs are still living animals, and I don't expect them to INSTANTLY be okay with EVERYTHING... but I expect a VERY quick adaptation time.

So, to summarize, in THIS thread, one of our members posted some pictures of an adorable dog that her friend is fostering. In this same thread, you have made snarky comments about such dog's temperament and stated that any "bulldog" that is less than perfect deserves a bullet. IMO, that is inexcusably rude and uncalled for. And pretty **** extreme.

She mentioned the dog's temperament, and I posted my feelings about it. Sorry if that offended you?

It's a *very* common mindset that any perceivably unstable pit bull (or looks there of) should be put down to prevent allowing ammunition to the BSL backers. Be it overtly shy, normal dog guarding, or any other decided-by-the-moment extreme. This mentality is based off the fable of APBT of the past were perfect and killed if they maintained any form of substandard temperament. The truth is all dog breeds maintain their flaws and flukes and it's upon each owner to judge their dog, or kennel club/governing body if the dog is breeding, it should not be up for discussion by outsiders unless your dog is proving to be the infamous media ammo that we all fear.

Me, I out grew those fantastical theories years ago. I'd rather judge my dogs by their character as an individual and not as a lynchpin for an entire movement.

And while that may be true of some folk - My feelings don't stem from anything in this post. I don't tolerate shyness/fearfulness in ANY dog of ANY breed. I am too... what's a good word? bold? harsh? bitchy? lol... for fearful/shy dogs. The whole "I judge dogs as individuals" IS an entire movement, if you hadn't noticed...

.. What? You don't realize that the border collie is also a "type" as well as a breed, and a lot of dogs who may not be pedigreed, registered border collies are still called border collies because they have a similar working style. There is a definite difference between the show/sport world's idea of the border collie and the working farmer's idea of the border collie. And yes, I believe the same thing applies to pit bulls and pit bull types.

There is a definite difference in show vs working types in a lot of breeds, APBTs included (if you consider UKC type "show" and ADBA type "working"). So excuse me, because no, I wasn't aware that "border collie" was a generic term as well as I breed. I should have used a different example, apparently.

Also, why is it wrong to ban a breed entirely but not wrong to say that a dog isn't entitled to behave like a dog, that a dog isn't allowed to have fears or be uncomfortable with something because it's a specific breed? That if a pit-type dog is shy it should get a bullet, but if a GSD or a Papillon or a Sheltie is shy it's fine? I am not understanding this at all. Don't APBT enthusiasts work to REDUCE breed discrimination?

As I said in my above replies, my feelings are not solely breed-specific... I feel the same about ANY dog, of any breed/mix. However, the discussion was about APBTs so perhaps I didn't make that distinction clear to begin with.

Shy dogs can be worked with, easily, and frankly I'd much rather deal with a shy dog in need of more confidence and positive experiences than deal with a dog whose first response to anything unusual is aggression. I think it's also safer for the general public and the average dog owner to deal with a shy/fearful dog whose first response is to avoid, rather than confront.

And I am the exact opposite. I would rather deal with an aggressive dog over a shy one.

I can understand the position that APBT enthusiasts are in, and I can understand the discouragement you all feel when you hear of a pit-type dog with a less-than-ideal temperament, but to say that a dog needs to be killed for not being "perfect" is ridiculous. EVERY dog has its limit, every dog has its threshold, even the ones that people call "perfect". You might as well put a bullet in the heads of each of your dogs then, too, because I'm pretty sure none of them are perfect either.

Yes, every dog has a limit. I did not say they don't, or that they should be faulted for having one. I did not say that a dog can NEVER show ANY shyness/fearfulness. But, to me, habitual, continual shyness/fearfulness is not acceptable because then the dog is at its limit, ALL the time.

Seriously, someone shares pictures of an adorable dog that's briefly come into her life, and all you have to contribute is implications that it should be killed for being shy. Lovely.

Well, it IS the internet. Lots of different opinions/viewpoints out there. Are you implying that there was a certain type of response that this thread should have limited to?

My replies in bold.

I've met some papillons that are 20 lbs or more with severe overbites and little to no coat, wrong head type, and I could go on. The dogs are still papillons, just not bred to the breed standard. I don't understand this insistence that a dog that is not 100% to the ADBA APBT breed standard can not be called a pit bull.

And yeah I definitely agree that this is the wrong thread to say these things. Someone's just trying to share a picture for crying out loud!

A dog doesn't have to be to breed standard to be of that breed - but it actually DOES need to be OF THAT BREED.

You know, there is a lot of things that I want to say right now that would just get me ban, so I'm just going to agree with this post. I grew out of those theories as well and can really relate.

My dog is far from the perfect bulldog. He trust dog owners, people with dogs, than he trust the average person on the street. With a dog, he would happily come up to you. Without one, if you come to him, he would try to avoid you. He is not bulldog confident. He has no aggression problems at all, and to say he deserves a bullet for his shyness... :madgo:

:shrug: Not everyone wants the same thing in a dog. Why do people get so upset over that? I don't get upset if people tell me they'd never own a Pit Bull. I don't get upset if people tell me they'd hate to own my dog because he barks too much. If your shy dog works for you, and you can keep that dog from biting someone... have at it - the dog is lucky to have found someone compassionate and willing to deal with its issues.

 

[PWCorgi]

Not everyone wants the same thing in a dog. Why do people get so upset over that? I don't get upset if people tell me they'd never own a Pit Bull. I don't get upset if people tell me they'd hate to own my dog because he barks too much. If your shy dog works for you, and you can keep that dog from biting someone... have at it - the dog is lucky to have found someone compassionate and willing to deal with its issues.

I think the reason people get a little heated/upset in these types of threads because it is lives on the line. People don't tend to say "he was fearful and I couldn't deal with it so he lives with someone else now" it is "I don't tolerate shyness so I put him to sleep." People get heated because they feel that dogs are (I'm hoping theoretically for 99% of cases) being killed for what they consider to be a non-valid reason.

 

[Teal]

I have a few friends who have had to make the terrible decision to euth a dog because there was just something so wrong it was unfixable and the dog's life was becoming untenable. It was a horrible, heart shattering decision that will never stop hurting for each of them.

I had to put down an 11 month old puppy for extreme fear issues. I gave her a chance and tried to work with her as best as I could... but dogs with fear issues aren't happy. Hers were genetic (inherited from her dam), and therefor "unfixable"... but I tried to do what I could to improve on them, and she only got worse. Perhaps that is why I am so **** intolerant of crappy behaviour - the more people who allow it, the more acceptable it becomes and the stakes get higher and higher on what level of issues are "fixable" or "managable" or "savable" and the dogs' welfare is the LAST thing to be considered.. it becomes all about the person and their need to feel good about "helping" a dog.

 

[Saeleofu]

I think the reason people get a little heated/upset in these types of threads because it is lives on the line. People don't tend to say "he was fearful and I couldn't deal with it so he lives with someone else now" it is "I don't tolerate shyness so I put him to sleep." People get heated because they feel that dogs are (I'm hoping theoretically for 99% of cases) being killed for what they consider to be a non-valid reason.

Exactly. And since you stated you have no tolerance for this behavior in a thread about someone else's dog, in reference to said dog, that DOES imply that you consider such a dog unworthy of life.

 

[crazedACD]

I have a few friends who have had to make the terrible decision to euth a dog because there was just something so wrong it was unfixable and the dog's life was becoming untenable. It was a horrible, heart shattering decision that will never stop hurting for each of them.

And I believe it should be horrible and heart shattering. It shouldn't be a swift or thoughtless decision and all attempts should be made to evaluate, assess, and possibly modify the dog before making that decision. We all have our limits on what we will tolerate and that's fine but to be able to say in advance would put a bullet in a 'shy' dog is pretty hard to swallow. It shouldn't be that easy for someone who has the best interest of their dogs in mind. And this is from someone who has put a dog to sleep for aggression...because I'll be damned if someone gets the impression it is taking the easy way out or it is an easy decision.

I remember reading somewhere (maybe a book on aggression?) that dogs are pretty much the only animal where causing harm to a human is unacceptable. Of course they are probably the most deadly animal we frequently come into contact with, and I get that..but we really do hold them to incredibly high standards compared to other species.

 

[Teal]

I believe there are worse things than death. I don't believe EVERY dog deserves to live, issues be damned.

But like I said, I don't expect anyone to agree with me. A little tact and understanding that people have different viewpoints from your own so the conversation can remain civil might be nice though.

 

[PWCorgi]

Perhaps that is why I am so **** intolerant of crappy behaviour - the more people who allow it, the more acceptable it becomes and the stakes get higher and higher on what level of issues are "fixable" or "managable" or "savable" and the dogs' welfare is the LAST thing to be considered.. it becomes all about the person and their need to feel good about "helping" a dog.

I have yet to meet one dog person who has a fearful dog who would consider it "acceptable." Most people who have dealt with a fearful dog do the best they can and come out on the other side saying "I never want to do that again!" and seek out a dog that is NOT shy. And JQ Public shouldn't be the ones to say what is allowed or acceptable when it comes to breeding, that should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the breeders. And if breeders are producing shy dogs then they SERIOUSLY need to take a look at their breeding program.

 

[stafinois]

But like I said, I don't expect anyone to agree with me. A little tact and understanding that people have different viewpoints from your own so the conversation can remain civil might be nice though.

I am firm that rescues should not be adopting out, nor should breeders be selling, dogs without ideal temperaments. But to bring up the ol' "manbiters die" argument in a thread showing off cute pics of a loved dog? That crosses the line considered tactful in the other direction.