Doodles (and how Labradoodles are different)

[pitbulliest]

I agree with Doodley & Loveofanimals. They both took the words right out of my mouth. I have a Silkshire Terrier (Silky Terrier/Yorkie) and I love her to death. I don't agree with IRRESPONSIBLE breeding, but there are responsible purebred, and mixed-breed breeders. Like Doodley said, all dog breeds came from crossbreeding. Why not create a new breed that may be healthier than the standard breed...? My silkshire was specifically (and responsibly) bred to be the size of a Yorkie, while retaining the hardiness of a Silky so that people with young kids, can have a dog, and not worry about it getting hurt, and be within the limits of most rent-houses, or appartments. They are wonderful all around dogs, and I love my little Lucy.

Well you just supported someone that bred a mutt with no standards or confirmation. Why didn't you go to a shelter or a breed specific rescue instead? What makes you think that there won't be thousands of dogs that are Lucy's size and even mix in shelters or rescues? There are THOUSANDS of wonderful all around dogs waiting for homes that will be euthanized because people support BYBs that want to create more innocent lives instead of helping to decrease the homeless pet population.

I just don't understand this mentallity..especially when you KNOW the facts and KNOW what is happening with dogs worldwide...I just don't get it...

 

[MomOf7]

Well you just supported someone that bred a mutt with no standards or confirmation. Why didn't you go to a shelter or a breed specific rescue instead? What makes you think that there won't be thousands of dogs that are Lucy's size and even mix in shelters or rescues? There are THOUSANDS of wonderful all around dogs waiting for homes that will be euthanized because people support BYBs that want to create more innocent lives instead of helping to decrease the homeless pet population.

I just don't understand this mentallity..especially when you KNOW the facts and KNOW what is happening with dogs worldwide...I just don't get it...

Ok OK We all need a chill pill. She is only 14 yano?

 

[zoe08]

My problem is this: 6-8 million dogs and cats in the US enter shelters every year. about HALF of them are PTS because there is not anywhere to keep them. Yet people keep breeding, and breeding, for no particular purpose other than to make money, or they think their dogs are cute.

Yes I made a mistake. I got Zoe from a BYB. But I got her and I got online and I did research and came to chaz and I learned and I will not make that mistake again. And now because of her I plan to help save other dogs lives instead of creating more.

As regards to having children. Many people adopt and foster shelter dogs. You can find one that has been foster in a family with children. Or you can often find puppies in shelters, then you would still be able to raise it yourself.

 

[oc_spirit]

Like Doodley said, all dog breeds came from crossbreeding. Why not create a new breed that may be healthier than the standard breed...?

Because they were bred for a PURPOSE. Not just because they''re "cute". These silly designer dogs have no purpose other than being "cute" regardless of what tags BYB put on them. It''s all just made up excuses to make their practices sound ethical and responsible. Back in the day when existing breeds were being created, the breeders all had a goal they were striving to reach. They didn''t just stick a male with testicles from one breed and a female with ovaries from another breed in a room and waited to see what the result was. They carefully selected breeds to implement into their breeding regime and before the litter was born already had plans for whether or not to add in another breed or continue with the cross they created. The also always only use the best of the litter to continue the breeding program. Not which dog looks cutest, but which dog is closest to the goal the breeder is trying to reach.

IF I got ahead and create the Alaskan Husky mix that I''ve been playing with I have doubts this dogs will come out looking very cute BUT they will be **** good sled dogs so it doesn;t matter what they look like. I also know they will make terrible pets but it doesn;t matter because IF I sell any of the puppies it will only be to working homes anyways. No pup of mine is going to be a couch potato. He may be king of the couch in the house but he will deffinately also be a working dog.

 

[bubbatd]

May I briefly jump in here !!! We've been though this before . To me Australian Labrodoodles will be recognized some day ...... I believe it's about 4 generations with STANDARDS. A Lab/Poodle mix is just that ....designer and way too costly . Dixies Mom ......you'll learn, sweetie, as you mature. I'm really not impressed with your site..... your pup is only 5 1/2 months old. You won't be breeding for another 2 years. By then you'll be nearing 17 years old. Hopefully boys and highschool will be more important to you than spending at least 10 hours a day with pups. BTW.... I thought I knew everthing 60 years ago when I was your age. Good luck !

 

[MK&C]

I thought it was 7 generations Grammy? I may be wrong though. Charlie is a 4th generation Cockapoo.

 

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

also you do realise there is alot more to breeding then having two tested dogs,

theres picking the perfect stud, picking one that has good points that can help your bitches bad points (vice, versa),
how they would help the breed, do they have good temperament, valued by yorkie breeders and the yorkie breed?

and there is more tests that should be done other then OFA and CERF

and you said you want to show one of the puppies,
what if they arent show worthy?
what if they are deformed?
what if the bitch has a terrible labour and looses the pups?
what if you get the pups but the bitch dies and you have to raise the pups yourself?

these things and more should ALL be considered and you should be prepared for all events when breeding a dog.

any good breeder will tell you that dog breeding is often risky and uncertain

Hi, I do understand all these concepts, and we will not breed her if the vet sees anything wrong with the female. I have had a 1st hand account with the female passing, and having to raise (6) puppies by hand. I'm prepared. My parents have experience in breeding Labs, and I've had a couple experiences. If the pup I keep isn't show quality I will spay/neuter it, and either keep it as a pet, or find it a pet home, and keep a pup from another litter. She's not going to be bred to a dog who is just a 'neighborhood' dog, we're going to request the dog be tested also, and say Dixie is 'good' for her OFA, we'll breed her with a male who has 'excellent'. We're fairly educated in this field, and I plan on going to some sort of vet or vet-tech school when I Graduate. It's going to be another year 1/2 before we breed her anyway, so we have time there also to learn even more. If you have any advice please PM me. I need all the help I can get. I think that Backyard breeders are people who are mis-informed, and un-educated. I'm not going to breed if I'm going to be that way. I want to learn all that's possible. Thanks.

 

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

May I briefly jump in here !!! We've been though this before . To me Australian Labrodoodles will be recognized some day ...... I believe it's about 4 generations with STANDARDS. A Lab/Poodle mix is just that ....designer and way too costly . Dixies Mom ......you'll learn, sweetie, as you mature. I'm really not impressed with your site..... your pup is only 5 1/2 months old. You won't be breeding for another 2 years. By then you'll be nearing 17 years old. Hopefully boys and highschool will be more important to you than spending at least 10 hours a day with pups. BTW.... I thought I knew everthing 60 years ago when I was your age. Good luck !

Actually, i'm homeschooled, so I have tons of time to spend w/ the dogs. Although, I'm going back for my Senior year to graduate with my friends. When we decided we were going to breed Dixie, my parents pulled me out of school to do the nessesary research, and classes with Dixie (for showing) while still being able to do school. Homeschool's a minimum of 4hrs a day, and Dixie's sitting on my lap as I do my studies. You're right, I won't be breeding for another 1 1/2 - 2 yrs, but that's why I'm trying to learn all I can right now. I want to be prepared....

 

[cowgurl6254]

I'm going to throw out something here....all of our dogs are mutts. Think about it....all of our purebred dogs were once crossed with another breed to get the dog that we have today. Even if your dog's pedigree can be traced back 100 years, that breed had to be developed at one point. The sheltie for instance has several breeds influenced. I'm not saying that it's okay to breed designer breeds. I'm just saying that on Noah's ark, he didn't have 200 AKC dog breeds on there. They all had to be mixed and matched to get the fabulous pups we have today. Just an idea....

 

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

I'm going to throw out something here....all of our dogs are mutts. Think about it....all of our purebred dogs were once crossed with another breed to get the dog that we have today. Even if your dog's pedigree can be traced back 100 years, that breed had to be developed at one point. The sheltie for instance has several breeds influenced. I'm not saying that it's okay to breed designer breeds. I'm just saying that on Noah's ark, he didn't have 200 AKC dog breeds on there. They all had to be mixed and matched to get the fabulous pups we have today. Just an idea....

that's a great point.

 

[bubbatd]

MK&C .... I really don't know the # of generations ..... sure hope you're right !!!! Sure better than 4 !

 

[Zoom]

Assuming the statement "all dogs began as crossbreeds" is true, we have one pesky little statement to add into it. The dogs produced as those breeds were being cemented were carefully evaluated for the characteristics the breeders were aiming for (difference #1: a set goal in mind) in the next generation. (Difference #2: multi-generational breeding, not the same F1 crossing most DD's are) The dogs that did not make the cut were either culled or given away; difference #3...the early crossbreeds did not fetch a heftier price than the purebreds, as there was no reason for them to.

 

[LabBreeder]

There is no reason to mix breeds. JMO

Just because you get her tested doesn't mean that she will be of good enough quality to be improving/bettering her breed. How do you know she will be titled? What does her pedigree show? Just because she has a good pedigree (if she does) doesn't mean she'll be show worthy or breeding worthy.
But, you're going to do what you're going to do regardless of what we say or how nicely it gets said. We are just trying to help you realize that your Yorkie may not be worthy of breeding just because she's old enough and been tested.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Even if your dog's pedigree can be traced back 100 years

In the case of Shibas...try 6000 years. Yep...skeletons of Shibas have been found from the ancient Jomon period of Japan.

I hear this get said time and time again, but no, all dogs are NOT mutts. There is a distinctive difference between a mutt and a purebred dog, and that difference is that purebreds, when bred to another purebred, breed TRUE. They breed like type. You can be reasonably well assured that when you breed two Shelties, you're going to get puppies that look and behave like Shelties.

When you breed mutts, puppies could resemble the sire, the dam, a combination of both, or something completely unrelated. All bets are off in terms of temperament and looks. Puppies in the same litter often don't look like one another.

Of course I realize that breeds were *created* by crossing, mixing, and refining other breeds- but this was done with a definitive purpose in mind, and a clear-cut goal, something I don't see in most designer-dog programs. Zoom did an excellent job bringing this up, and I just felt it was good enough to be reiterated.

I have NO problem with the creation of new breeds- I just think that most of these DD breeders aren't doing it right (or really not doing it at all). I think Silken Windhounds are a glorious example of a newly created breed- and the breeders of these animals have already had type set (and are holding specialty shows). They did this all WELL within my life time.

Labradoodles have been around for ages and I STILL haven't seen a really good standard. For crying out loud, by NOW you should have a reasonable idea of the size differences in males and females...unless of course you're still intent on breeding F1 crosses (and that's not creating a new breed, that's continuously breeding mixes with cutesy names). Where is a LARGE representative parent club? I don't get it.

And I don't see anything wrong with breeding mixes with a PURPOSE and all necessary health-testing. I've talked about Alaskan Huskies time and time again on this board. THEY are the dogs winning the Iditarod...NOT Sibes. These are most-definitely mixed breed dogs, but as a whole, I'd say it's TOUGHER to get one of these animals than it is to get a fabulous show prospect from a great purebred breeder. Their breeders understand that Alaskan Huskies would make TERRIBLE pets for the majority of people, and they place dogs accordingly. Most DD breeders seem to have nothing but positives to say about their crosses, and will sell to anyone with cash.

Just because all breeds were "once mixes" does not give people license to begin breeding indiscriminately because they think it would be "cute." And yet people use this excuse time and time again. In a world over-populated with homeless pets, "cute" isn't a good enough reason. The newly created breeds I've seen that were SUCCESSFUL, were so because they filled a niche previously unfilled. Look up Silken Windhounds or Black Russian Terriers and you'll see just that. And just as Zoom said, their "experimental" generations weren't sold at astronomical prices, to people who thought they were getting a legitimate BREED.

 

[MK&C]

Assuming the statement "all dogs began as crossbreeds" is true, we have one pesky little statement to add into it. The dogs produced as those breeds were being cemented were carefully evaluated for the characteristics the breeders were aiming for (difference #1: a set goal in mind) in the next generation. (Difference #2: multi-generational breeding, not the same F1 crossing most DD's are) The dogs that did not make the cut were either culled or given away; difference #3...the early crossbreeds did not fetch a heftier price than the purebreds, as there was no reason for them to.

When you say that they have a specific goal in mind, wouldn't being a well-tempered companion count as a goal? Pugs, Shih Tzus, Lhasas, Bichons....they where all bred to be companions (mainly for royalty).


By using a superior American Cocker and Mini Poodle that are excellent examples of the breed, both health and temperment wise, (of course, you would get the cocker and poodle titled first) wouldn't that *probably* produce well-tempered, healthy offspring? If you then bred an exceptionally-tempered, healthy bitch that looks like a cockapoo (not a cocker or poodle) from that litter to another f1 male cockapoo who had the same attributes, and then had an f2 litter, then continued to breed the same way getting further and further generations (being careful not to inbreed), would that still be considered bybing? Even if you where breeding to better the breed - health and temperment wise.

-from a 12 year old's point of view-.

Edit: The end goal would be to have the Cockapoo become it's own distinct breed.

 

[zoe08]

But why continue to create more breeds when you can find a breed for pretty much any reason now? Why create another breed to be that way instead of getting one thats been around for years? And to breed a dog to be a companion? Most breeds of dogs make great companions whether that was their original purpose or not.

All people do when they start trying to create new breeds is teach the BYBs that its ok to take a full lab and full poodle breed them. or whatever other breeds they choose

 

[Zoom]

When you say that they have a specific goal in mind, wouldn't being a well-tempered companion count as a goal? Pugs, Shih Tzus, Lhasas, Bichons....they where all bred to be companions (mainly for royalty).


By using a superior American Cocker and Mini Poodle that are excellent examples of the breed, both health and temperment wise, (of course, you would get the cocker and poodle titled first) wouldn't that *probably* produce well-tempered, healthy offspring? If you then bred an exceptionally-tempered, healthy bitch that looks like a cockapoo (not a cocker or poodle) from that litter to another f1 male cockapoo who had the same attributes, and then had an f2 litter, then continued to breed the same way getting further and further generations (being careful not to inbreed), would that still be considered bybing? Even if you where breeding to better the breed - health and temperment wise.

-from a 12 year old's point of view-.

Edit: The end goal would be to have the Cockapoo become it's own distinct breed.

End goal simply encompasses all the attributes the breeders are going for; from structure to coat type/color to temperment, the whole package.

I think the Cockapoo, out of all these new DD's, stands the best chance of becoming an established breed, as most of these dogs that I see do resemble each other to the extent necessary to say "these (could) breed true". Assuming all standard health testing was followed, and if someone would simply form a breed club and sit down to hash out all the details from accepted colors and markings, to heights, weights, shoulder angulation, bite, temperment, etc, then fine. Oh, and come up with a new name.

Something I seem to notice missing from all of these arguments (though Tempura has pointed part of it out) is the simple fact that few people on this board diametrically oppose new breeds being created. The Alaskan Husky, Silken Windhund and Eurasier have all been mentioned as newly created breeds. The difference between those and DD's traces back to what I mentioned before about set goals and fair pricing.

 

[MK&C]

But why continue to create more breeds when you can find a breed for pretty much any reason now? Why create another breed to be that way instead of getting one thats been around for years? And to breed a dog to be a companion? Most breeds of dogs make great companions whether that was their original purpose or not.

I understand, there are alot of dog breeds today...but just because there are similar breeds doesn't mean that there can't be more...

There ARE alot of homeless dogs in shelters due to irresponsible people and breeders. But IMO, as long as someone is going about making a new breed in a responsible, ethical, correct manner...I honestly do not see what's wrong with it.
Wonderful Lab and Golden breeders continue to breed because they can improve them, despite the fact that they are the most popular breed and there are many in shelters today. It doesn't mean that their breeding practices are unneccesary or unethical...

 

[Zoom]

One other factor that we have to deal with that didn't use to be as big of an issue, is that purebreds and dog breeding used to be the sole province of royalty and associated wealth. They were the only ones with the leisure time and funds to devote, though I'm sure the shepherds and drovers had their own breeding programs, but they were quite small scale and devoted solely to improving their daily tasks. Many times, there was also the whole pesky "pain of death or fined to death" penalties for non-nobles/royalty possessing certain dog breeds, which helped to keep the lines pure and stable.

These days there are no such restrictions, we've seen with pit bulls especially, what any Joe Six-pack down the street with two intact dogs can do.

 

[MK&C]

I think the Cockapoo, out of all these new DD's, stands the best chance of becoming an established breed, as most of these dogs that I see do resemble each other to the extent necessary to say "these (could) breed true". Assuming all standard health testing was followed, and if someone would simply form a breed club and sit down to hash out all the details from accepted colors and markings, to heights, weights, shoulder angulation, bite, temperment, etc, then fine. Oh, and come up with a new name.

Like this?

http://www.cockapooclub.com/

They have a breed standard on the website.