Border Collies - Tell me everything

[Jean Luc Picardy]

I'm new here but I'll throw in a couple of cents. In my experience with a couple of friends who each have a BC, both from reputable breeders...the reason they are called border collies is that they "border" on psychotic! :lol-sign: Seriously, while I appreciate their unbelievable skills, and their phenomenal ability to concentrate, I wouldn't even consider having one unless my life changed pretty drastically..like winning the lottery and buying a farm

I have a very high energy breed but BC's are waaay too much for me..and in my opinion, for 80% of the people who own them.

Do your homework and make sure a BC is for you. good luck

 

[irenafarm]

JLP, that's exactly what the previous poster was talking about. Normal BCs aren't like that. They don't need farms, they just need a leader and friend who will give them a routine to structure their lives around.

"Psychotic" should not be what comes to mind when you look at a Border Collie. What on earth good would an insane dog do me when I'm half a mile from home, and I've got to get a ewe and lamb up from where they are hiding in the ravine, and my dog is at home because he's too psychotic to be trusted off leash around sheep?

What should come to mind when you see a well-bred, properly raised BC:

Patient
Persistent (yup, that ball's coming back no matter how many times you throw it)
Focused
Responsive
Attuned
Attentive
Manageable
Athletic (of course)

I agree that Sporter Collies (lol) are the bane of the breed. Even worse than conformation bred dogs (Barbie Collies), which really are a separate breed with very few exceptions. While conformation dogs only threaten working stock on principle, by changing what is valued in the breed, sport collies actually both dilute the gene pool and are damaging what people perceive as "normal" for the breed. Yes, a BC needs a lot of attention, more than most people are willing to offer. And there ARE some lines that are ridiculously needy (though I don't believe they are our best lines). But there's no reason, ever, for a BC to act like a brainless slobbering idiot in the working context. and actually breeding for dogs that can't control themselves is simply horrifying! I can't encourage anyone, anywhere, to support such breeders, no matter how many Multiple FDGCh MACH World Trial Champions they have in their kennels.

Somebody hand me a step stool so I can climb down off this high horse, lol.

 

[Jean Luc Picardy]

irenafarm, that's basically my point. Your dogs have a job to do which is what this breed excels at and needs. I don't pretend to know a great deal about BC's but it seems to me that the right situation is very important. My two friends with them both live in cities and it just doesn't look like they are getting their needs fulfilled. I would never blame the dogs nor the breed itself for this. I think they are an amazing and brilliant breed in the right circumstances.

 

[irenafarm]

My dogs haven't always had that job. I know tons and tons of people who have BCs and keep them perfectly happy without huge amounts of effort. It is all in the breeding of the dog.

They aren't a great breed for a yard ornament but heck, is any dog a good yard ornament? That's what plastic pink flamingos are for. they have certain needs that have to be fulfilled and need to be chosen with care to make sure they suit your lifestyle, but again, one could say that about a lab, a collie, or a German Shepherd. All working dogs, but no one ever says, "Those are crazy dogs! You shouldn't get one of those INSANE dogs because no mortal can make them happy unless you a) hunt every day b) make the dog a movie star or c) become a police officer."

What I hate to see is the myth perpetuated that hyper, out of control Border Collies are "normal," which lets breeders of abnormal dogs get away with adding their genetics to the gene pool. Then farmers avoid the dogs because they are out of control, over-the-top, menaces - and the fewer farmers use the dogs, the fewer real working dogs will be bred. Soon the myth will become reality as Sportie Collies become the mainstay of the gene pool. That would be really bad, I think everyone could agree.

 

[SizzleDog]

irena, I'm glad at least some people in the BC community see what the Sporter Collies are doing to the breed.

There is a man in my area with three BC... real BCs. He came to a fun show put on my the university with them - and they were WONDERFUL - they had all the attributes on your list, and were stunning to boot.

And the Sporter Collie people tore him apart. Said his dogs were too big, they were too calm, they weren't fast enough, they were ugly... the list of insults went on and on... it was really sad.

I had a Sporter Collie breeder tell me that she wanted a Doberman with no aggressive tendencies whatsoever, including territoriality. I told her that was a tall order and that if those are her terms she shouldn't get a dobe, and she nonchalantly told me that she'd "beat the aggression out of it".

Yeah, and get your face taken off in the process.

But to keep it on topic... this story really illustrates how some people will try to change a breed into what they want it to be, regardless of the consequences... and I believe this is what has happened with the Sporters.

 

[Melissa_W]

This thread has been really interesting to me.

I've wanted a Border Collie "some day" for the longest time, until recently. Lately, I've been having second thoughts. I've started to get involved in agility with my Sheltie and have been exposed to a lot of "Sporter Collies" and their owners. Not only are the dogs completely bonkers, their owners have huge egos and superiority complexes. It's been a real turn off. I'd like to spend some time with a working line Border Collie if I ever get the chance.

 

[Lizmo]

I completely agree, Becca. There's a huge difference in Sport bred BCs and working bred BCs.

My trainer has both and I've worked with both. The sport bred dogs are total bouncing off the walls, barkings, going in every direction 100 mph. While her working bred dogs are waiting paitently for their turn and are completely focused on making a clean run.

 

[Whisper]

Excellent post, Becca! I have to explain to some people that they are NOT crazy. I think a lot of people encounter a lot too many of sport bred BCs and base their opinion on the fact those dogs have no self control at all.
When working, BCs have to be calculating and in control, not just hyper.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Melissa,
Isn't it sad in agility, the attitude of some of the BC people?
I SWEAR we aren't all like that !

Everyoen ignored me at my club until I got Spy

~Tucker

 

[RD]

Becca, great posts. I couldn't agree more.

I think many of you who detest Sporter Collies would be pleasantly surprised with the temperament and soundness of well bred BCs. Don't judge a breed by the extremes - yes, there are ridiculously fluffy show dogs and ridiculously hyper sport dogs and ridiculously useless "versatile" dogs with dozens of titles and no real-work experience or skill. But there are also good, solid dogs that might work ranches or compete in sheep/cattledog trials which award no titles. They're adaptable, useful, not too high maintainance and these are the dogs that I find are often overlooked, yet are the best representatives of what the breed should be.

I have a border collie from some **** good lines, out of dogs that can and do work large numbers of sheep on a near daily basis. They have the drive, energy and stamina to do this. She has international supreme champion trial dogs behind her, and my 10 month old puppy is proving to be a very keen working dog. Yet, Eve is by far THE kindest, sweetest dog I've met. She's sociable enough to be a therapy dog, stable enough to be my service dog and she gets along with everyone she's met. She can live with other dogs, snarky cats and various small critters. I trust her to always be kind to people. I'm not a hardcore working home. I don't have sheep. To be honest, she doesn't have a ton to do during the day except follow me around and keep an eye on me, but she's not hyper or crazy. She's an active young dog, but certainly not psychotic as some describe the breed.

Good working dogs are a balance of intensity and impulse control, and I find that the sport bred dogs seriously lack the impulse control. I have 2 sport bred dogs, and both of them are like this. Dakota is a very pleasant dog to be around and Dash will be too once she matures, but they don't have the patience or self control that Eve does. When these dogs are raised to be as fast and intense as possible, it makes them unbearable to live with. I can't defend the breeding of sport collies, but the dogs themselves aren't terrible until crazy sport people mess them up. I think that's the biggest difference (aside from the deterioration of working ability) between sport collies and working stockdogs -- the people who raise them.

I wish some of you Chazzers could meet my BCs. There's a reason I'm so crazy about the breed.

Oh, and for the record, I do agility too. It's possible to have a good agility dog without making them psychotic. Dakota is a therapy dog.

 

[Lizmo]

:hail: Grace!

Gosh, I could talk BC 24/7

 

[mrose_s]

My trainer has both and I've worked with both. The sport bred dogs are total bouncing off the walls, barkings, going in every direction 100 mph. While her working bred dogs are waiting paitently for their turn and are completely focused on making a clean run.

that really stood out to me and I think it sums it up perfectly. The BC's that know their job are doing it properly.
Also reminds me of flyball with Mac, at a lot of comps I've seen all the dogs lined up barking, lunging out to go,which I know is probably a lot to do with excitement aswell. But Mac, you just cannot get her to do that if you try. She is obvisouly part kelpie (and whippet and mini foxy) but thats it, she just waits, she stares at the springboard and she waits. She is so in tune with what you are saying/doing and what she's doign next its amazing, she doesn't carry on or anything.

When we practice with her in the backyard we can so "snow, slow, blow etc" and no get a reaction but the second we say "go" she is off as fast as she can go. She has also taught herself to back herself into our arms so we can hold her ready to let her go.

While I always thought ACD's suited me down to the ground, the more research I did on them and the after living with Harry I don't know if I'll ever have one, I'm far too bossy, I want a breed that is super willing to listen just becaus I asked them to. I know that comes more down to training but ACD's seem to have much more of the "and why shoudl I do that?" mentality and sure they will if it makes sense to them.

 

[RD]

Mrose, while Border Collies are very responsive, they aren't all "super willing to listen, just because". Eve for example, listens to one person only. Me. I don't know if she does it because she loves me, or if she does it because she has a strong drive to work, no matter what that work may be. She doesn't require treats after a job well done because the job well done is the greatest reinforcement she can get. Border collies love to be right.

All dogs have a "what's in it for me?" mentality; they need that for survival. I've found that ACDs are a little more interested in themselves and their environment than their people, but they're by nature a more independent breed. I wouldn't call them stubborn, but they're determined. BCs are too.

 

[Herschel]

Mrose, while Border Collies are very responsive, they aren't all "super willing to listen, just because". Eve for example, listens to one person only. Me. I don't know if she does it because she loves me, or if she does it because she has a strong drive to work, no matter what that work may be. She doesn't require treats after a job well done because the job well done is the greatest reinforcement she can get. Border collies love to be right.

It's so true. Sometimes Nala spits her treats out after performing a behavior. She doesn't even really need the praise that much, either. She just likes to know that she got it right.

 

[mrose_s]

Mrose, while Border Collies are very responsive, they aren't all "super willing to listen, just because". Eve for example, listens to one person only. Me. I don't know if she does it because she loves me, or if she does it because she has a strong drive to work, no matter what that work may be. She doesn't require treats after a job well done because the job well done is the greatest reinforcement she can get. Border collies love to be right.

your right, thats pretty much what I was trying to get at but not exactly sure how to word it properly.
Also wanted to ask you RD how you sourced Eve's breeder? If I do go with a breeder I am unsure how to find a really good working breder. I would obvisouly like health testing done, but I don't think many stations will have a website advertising their pups. Should I just keep my ear out and get my bum off to some trials?

 

[Lizmo]

I'm not Grace, but, yes going to trials would help. Also, try to find out some of the "top name" people where you live.

What to look for in a breeder would be one that, has titles on his/her dogs and does health testing. Now, I will say this, with working dogs most breeders have atleast 2-5 litters a year. Most breeders have their pups for sale and up&coming dogs on the website if they have one.

You'll know if it's a good breeder or not most likely from just the way they talk about the breed.

Who would you register a dog with over their? You can check out that website for a list of breeders.

 

[Lizmo]

Sorry double post...

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

^I'm going to disagree with Jen (Though I still love ya sista! LOL)

A LOT of good breeders are overlooked because their dogs don't have titles. There are plenty of excellent ranchers/farmers who produce good working dogs. These breeders often breed to keep a worker for themselves and sell the rest of the puppies. Generally, their dogs work the stock at the farm. If you go this route, go and watch the dogs work, make sure they are healthy etc.

And I think 5 litters a year, that would be excessive.

~Tucker

 

[Lizmo]

But then wouldn't you just be supporting someone who is like a BYB? I know that working breeders are different in a lot of ways, but wouldn't it just be better to go with someone who does trial their dogs?

5 litters may be a bit much, but I've seen it done by some top of the line working breeders

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

I don't think so. They are breeding to get a better worker for themselves. IMO, a BYB produce dogs for no good reason. These ranchers are trying to improve their dogs so that they perform better when asked to do a job.

And we must remember, this is where BC's originated from. Breeder's like these.

I have heard of dogs that do well in trials, but are completely useless at home and vice versa. Just food for thought.

~Tucker